Falling Into Infinity a re-listen

[Dublagent66]

There isn't much I don't like about this album. 

[Phoenix87x]

Been listening to Lines in the Sand heavily over the past few days. God damn do I love this song 

And have been enjoying FII as a whole as well. Its got such a unique sound compared to all the other albums. 

[porcacultor]

It's funny, I read that MP hated the studio version for Take Away My Pain, but I've always loved it so much. The beachy arrangement may be a little jarring at first, but honestly I'm always moved by the track regardless.

Also, I know it's probably just because I'm more used to it, but it really bugged me when they played the longer version of Hollow Years in 2009/10 (can't remember)... I love how the "original" sounds just fine!

[erciccio]

Well, I tried the re-listen excercise and it was a bit painful...

Even though "de gustibus non est disputandum", there are many tracks that are clearly not up to DT standards in terms of "quality" (I know it is not fully objective, but...)-
- You not Me, Burning my Soul, Take Away my Pain and Just Let me Breathe are in this category.
- Peruvian skies is a poor attempt to mimic Metallica
- New Millenium has a cool intro but most of the song is almost cacophonic

Then there are a few songs that are ok-ish, but not DT-style:
- Anna Lee is a nice Elton John cover
- Hollow years in a nice

Luckily, there 3 real masterpieces..: Lines in the Sand, Hell's Kitchen and Trial of Tears.

But it's not (never) enough.

[Setlist Scotty]

It's funny, I read that MP hated the studio version for Take Away My Pain, but I've always loved it so much. The beachy arrangement may be a little jarring at first, but honestly I'm always moved by the track regardless.

Also, I know it's probably just because I'm more used to it, but it really bugged me when they played the longer version of Hollow Years in 2009/10 (can't remember)... I love how the "original" sounds just fine!

The bolded part is probably why I prefer the original versions of TAMP, BMS and ACoS, rather than the final (album) versions.

Conversely, I love the vast majority of the changes they made to older songs in the live setting, HY included. I'm of the mindset that if I want to hear it exactly as on the album, I'll listen to the album version.

[Fritzinger]

Highly underrated in my opinion. I love the slightly more concise/poppy Dream Theater. The guys HAVE the ability to write memorable but not silly melodies. And Lines and Trial Of Tears are masterpieces without a doubt.
Plus: BEST drum sound evar

[porcacultor]

The bolded part is probably why I prefer the original versions of TAMP, BMS and ACoS, rather than the final (album) versions.

Conversely, I love the vast majority of the changes they made to older songs in the live setting, HY included. I'm of the mindset that if I want to hear it exactly as on the album, I'll listen to the album version.

That's what started to hit me after writing this. I've probably attributed an emotional value to these versions I had access to, since I was listening to them in a specific context in my life and whatnot. Had I listened to the previous versions first, I probably would enjoy them more!

I still think the pre-chorus extension in HY is jarring, but again, different strokes.

[7StringedBeast]

I haven't posted here in years and years.  I decided to sign in today, to find a thread I started 9 years ago up at the top.  Crazy.

[pg1067]

I give this album a spin now and then to see if I find something I missed previously.  I listened to the first half or so yesterday.

New Millennium:  I can remember when I first got FII.  I was initially excited by the intro, which reminded me a bit of the intro to "Leave the Past Behind" by Fates Warning (the guitar intro after the vocal part that is the actual intro to the track).  But the track pretty much goes downhill after the first part of the intro.  The intro goes on too long, and the song never really finds its feet.  It's probably a bottom 10 DT track.

You Not Me:  This song is a pretty good DT-style "single."  It's far superior to "You or Me," but it's ultimately nothing special.

Peruvian Skies:  Meh.  It's ok.  The heavy part is better than the brooding part.  And it's odd to have two songs about child abuse on the album, and this is the lesser of the two.

Hollow Years:  I've always liked this song.  The best song to this point on the album.

Burning My Soul:  Not bad, but it's not so good that it makes me want to listen repeatedly.  Strong vocal performance by James.

Hell's Kitchen:  Great, well-crafted instrumental.  It's a nice contrast to songs like "The Dance of Eternity."

Lines in the Sand:  A pretty good song ruined by the chorus with the guest "singer."

My thoughts on the rest of the album coming in a day or two.

[Samsara]

I have always said that FII is one of my favorite DT records, and that hasn't changed in 2019. My favorite tracks from the record have remain the same for 22 years:

1. Trial of Tears
2. Lines in the Sand
3. Hell's Kitchen
4. Anna Lee

I think some of the changes made to the record (such as pulling Hell's Kitchen out of the middle of Burning My Soul) were absolutely the right calls. Even the modified "You Not Me" instead of the original "You Or Me." All those changes to the song make it a ton better. And the record, at least "You Not Me" got great airplay on Long Island when it was released. "Anna Lee," despite some of the criticism of it for being different, is a beautiful tune, much better than some of the other simpler ballads the band tried on subsequent records.

I completely understand the push back the album received from fans, particularly in light of MP's public complaints about it. I know everyone says they aren't influenced by MP's comments, but I think a lot of that is horseshit, honestly.    The moment MP slagged it a ton of people just jumped on that "hate on FII" bandwagon. It is what it is. We're all guilty of doing that for something here and there. But in this case, I think it really damaged the perception of the album.

In any event, I love FII. It isn't up to the "big 3" of Images and Words, Awake, and SFAM, but I'd put it squarely at #4 for me.

[bosk1]

I completely understand the push back the album received from fans, particularly in light of MP's public complaints about it. I know everyone says they aren't influenced by MP's comments, but I think a lot of that is horseshit, honestly.    The moment MP slagged it a ton of people just jumped on that "hate on FII" bandwagon. It is what it is. We're all guilty of doing that for something here and there. But in this case, I think it really damaged the perception of the album.

Hard to say.  I know for me, I hadn't heard MP's comments at all when I first formed my opinion of the album.  When I heard BMS on the radio after the album dropped, I hated it.  I hadn't heard anything from the album since then until I bought it in 2001 (I had Images and Words, but hadn't followed the band actively at all until SFAM came out).  I got it and Awake at the same time.  I instantly liked Awake and instantly hated FII.  It just didn't sound like the same band.  In hindsight, with so many albums behind them, and now knowing the happenings at the time they worked on that album, it makes sense and fits into their discography.  But at the time, it was jarring, and I didn't like it.  But it wasn't until a couple of years after that that I had even the slightest idea that MP had slagged the album and didn't like it.  None.

For me, the problem with it is and was simply that it contains some of my least favorite DT songs of all time.  I warmed up to some songs quite a bit.  But I still rank it toward the bottom of the DT discography because, although it has some really stellar songs, it also has its share of middle-of-the-road songs, as well as songs I still do not like and rank at the bottom of the discography. 

Here is my rough song ranking now:

Songs I love:
-Lines in the Sand
-Take Away My Pain
-Trial of Tears

Songs I like a lot:
-Peruvian Skies
-New Millenium

Okay songs (I like them, but wouldn't go out of my way to listen, ever):
-Just Let Me Breathe
-Anna Lee

Songs I REALLY dislike:
-Burning My Soul
-Hollow Years
-Hell's Kitchen
-You Not Me

4 songs out of 11 that I really dislike.  And another 2 that are not bad, but I am largely indifferent to.  Mike Portnoy has nothing to do with that.  But the other 5 are really quite good.  And I'd still really like to see BMS live, because even though I don't love it, it feels like it would be a great live song.

[Setlist Scotty]

I completely understand the push back the album received from fans, particularly in light of MP's public complaints about it. I know everyone says they aren't influenced by MP's comments, but I think a lot of that is horseshit, honestly. 

Besides people like Bosk who heard the album before ever knowing MP's feelings, I definitely think that the majority of us who were around in 1996-97 and had bootleg recordings from the Fix for 96 shows *before* FII was released would disagree. I know for me, I listened to the first show repeatedly and loved the songs as they were. Then when I got the album and listened to it, I was like "WHAT THE....?"

So while I don't doubt that there are some fans who have been influenced by his comments, there's plenty of us who haven't.

[Dream Team]

Yup, I hate FII on it's own merits and I've explained why numerous times. I'm really sick of hearing that MP excuse.

[jayvee3]

I love FII and it's a top 5 DT album for me (which positions constantly chop and change). It is heavily underrated in my book and sonically sounds amazing. This album would likely be my favourite DT with a few changes:

1) BMS I'm just not a fan of, and think it should be replaced altogether with "Speak to Me". That may have resulted in a few too many ballads however...
2) Hollow years should have been recorded with that amazing JP solo included from Budokan (think it was Budokan). Would've transformed a very good song into an unforgettable song.
3) The demos don't phase me too much, but I do prefer "you or me" to the version of "you not me" that ended up on the album.

Just something about the feel of this album resonates with me and always did from day 1. NM, PS, HY, LITS, HK, and TOT are standouts, TAMP and AL are powerful ballads and JLMB is great in a live setting.

[erwinrafael]

This album has four topnotch songs: Trial of Tears, Peruvian Skies, Hell's Kitchen, and Lines in the Sand.

[DTinTX]

I picked up FII in a second hand music shop on Greenville Avenue about 3 years ago.  It was the first DT album I ever listened to.  I guess I'm in the minority here, but YNM, Lines in the Sand and Peruvian Skies hooked me on this band.  And when I say hooked I mean hopelessly hooked!  So bad in fact I'm starting to think I may need some kind of therapy.

[EPIC Outro]

I love FII but ever since learning there were earlier versions of many of the songs, and then after hearing them via YTSEJAM records, I just can't view FII as anything but a compromised album. I still enjoy it, and I even prefer some of the studio versions, like Hollow Years. But I hope that one day DT might bring out some of those alternate versions and B sides live, like they did in the past.

[pg1067]

I completely understand the push back the album received from fans, particularly in light of MP's public complaints about it. I know everyone says they aren't influenced by MP's comments, but I think a lot of that is horseshit, honestly.    The moment MP slagged it a ton of people just jumped on that "hate on FII" bandwagon. It is what it is. We're all guilty of doing that for something here and there. But in this case, I think it really damaged the perception of the album.

This may be true for some, but I didn't hear MP's comments about it until probably a good decade or more after it was released.  I recall where and when I was when I first heard it.  My wife and I had just moved into a new apartment, and we had a bunch of boxes all over our living room.  I brought FII home and put it on the stereo and was kind of like, "meh...meh...what happened to these guys?"  I knew nothing about bootlegs and original versions for a long time.  I'm not sure I've listened to all of the original versions.  The one that I'm very familiar with ("You or Me") is notably worse than what ended up on the album.

[TAC]

I completely understand the push back the album received from fans, particularly in light of MP's public complaints about it. I know everyone says they aren't influenced by MP's comments, but I think a lot of that is horseshit, honestly.    The moment MP slagged it a ton of people just jumped on that "hate on FII" bandwagon. It is what it is. We're all guilty of doing that for something here and there. But in this case, I think it really damaged the perception of the album.

This may be true for some, but I didn't hear MP's comments about it until probably a good decade or more after it was released.  I recall where and when I was when I first heard it.  My wife and I had just moved into a new apartment, and we had a bunch of boxes all over our living room.  I brought FII home and put it on the stereo and was kind of like, "meh...meh...what happened to these guys?" I knew nothing about bootlegs and original versions for a long time.  I'm not sure I've listened to all of the original versions.  The one that I'm very familiar with ("You or Me") is notably worse than what ended up on the album.

I also remember listening to FII for the first time. My first thought was ..."that was quick" meaning this band's era before what I considered a total sell out was over quickly.

I saw the Fix For '96 show in Providence, but I didn't yet hear any bootlegs from those shows, nor do I think it really would've made a difference. I thought New Millenium was so contrived.

I only killed Lines In The Sand, Peruvian Skies, and Trial Of Tears. FII is, and has always been a 3 song album for me. All MP's comments, which I did not hear until many years later, did was solidify why I thought FII wasn't up to DT par.

The only thing FII has is incredible sound.

[KevShmev]

Portnoy's history has shown that he is prone to throw fits when he doesn't totally get his way, and I think that explains his negative comments about Falling info Infinity years later, since certain things were done not the way he personally wanted them.  The fact that Petrucci came out years later and said he was happy with the album and that it was in fact the album they wanted to make at the time, spoke volumes.

[pg1067]

I give this album a spin now and then to see if I find something I missed previously.  I listened to the first half or so yesterday.

New Millennium:  I can remember when I first got FII.  I was initially excited by the intro, which reminded me a bit of the intro to "Leave the Past Behind" by Fates Warning (the guitar intro after the vocal part that is the actual intro to the track).  But the track pretty much goes downhill after the first part of the intro.  The intro goes on too long, and the song never really finds its feet.  It's probably a bottom 10 DT track.

You Not Me:  This song is a pretty good DT-style "single."  It's far superior to "You or Me," but it's ultimately nothing special.

Peruvian Skies:  Meh.  It's ok.  The heavy part is better than the brooding part.  And it's odd to have two songs about child abuse on the album, and this is the lesser of the two.

Hollow Years:  I've always liked this song.  The best song to this point on the album.

Burning My Soul:  Not bad, but it's not so good that it makes me want to listen repeatedly.  Strong vocal performance by James.

Hell's Kitchen:  Great, well-crafted instrumental.  It's a nice contrast to songs like "The Dance of Eternity."

Lines in the Sand:  A pretty good song ruined by the chorus with the guest "singer."

My thoughts on the rest of the album coming in a day or two.

I finished my latest re-listening to FII:

Take Away My Pain:  It's the epitome of "just ok."  The calypso vibe is vaguely interesting, but the song doesn't really do anything or go anywhere.

Just Let Me Breathe:  Probably the worst song on the album other than New Millennium.  It's a disorganized jumble.

Anna Lee:  I like the vibe of this song, although the lyrics are a little uncomfortable.  For a ballad, it's very good.  Ultimately, I like it, but when this is one of the three best songs on your album, you've got problems.

Trial of Tears:  I think this song is a big part of the "Cult of Myung" -- i.e., those who acted (and still act) in the post-MP era like anything with John Myung-penned lyrics will be absolute gold.  To me, it's pretty good, but it meanders a lot.

The bottom line of this album is that it has none of the signature DT moments that are present on I&W and Awake (even WDADU has some), and it's best songs are no better than average.

[TAC]

Portnoy's history has shown that he is prone to throw fits when he doesn't totally get his way, and I think that explains his negative comments about Falling info Infinity years later, since certain things were done not the way he personally wanted them.  The fact that Petrucci came out years later and said he was happy with the album and that it was in fact the album they wanted to make at the time, spoke volumes.

Seems JP has a commercial side to him. On the 8V Fan Club DVD, JP speaks glowingly about 8V (the album). It actually made me worry when MP left.

[KevShmev]

Portnoy's history has shown that he is prone to throw fits when he doesn't totally get his way, and I think that explains his negative comments about Falling info Infinity years later, since certain things were done not the way he personally wanted them.  The fact that Petrucci came out years later and said he was happy with the album and that it was in fact the album they wanted to make at the time, spoke volumes.

Seems JP has a commercial side to him. On the 8V Fan Club DVD, JP speaks glowingly about 8V (the album). It actually made me worry when MP left.

I think a better way to put it is, Petrucci does not mind input from a producer and/or outside source if he thinks it can make the song better, while Portnoy generally doesn't like anyone who is not part of the band "butting in and telling me how to make my song better." 

[TAC]

True. Since MP left I loved how they used a coproducer on ADTOE.
Oh wait, no they didn't.
Surely they used an outside writer and coproducer on DT12. Nope!
But on The Astonishing...Sure Kev!

Oh I know...maybe on D/T...

[ytserush]

Anna Lee is one of the worst things they've ever done.

That said, there was a negative reaction from a substantial portion of the online fan base. at the time of release to the point where band members were DEFENDING the album though not particularly convincingly to me.

I liked about a third to half of it when it came out but it was definitely a left turn from what had come before and I thought at the time Derek and the record label were largely responsible for that.  Of course more of the behind the scenes stuff would come out later that would explain a lot of what was going on.

At the time though, all I knew was that something was wrong that changed the direction of the band.

Aside from Anna Lee I really enjoy the rest of it. I've often said that Derek being in the band was a lightning rod for me and as soon as Jordan joined I was able to step back and just enjoy the album for what it is. A nice detour from the Dream Theater road. I feel pretty fortunate that the band was able to survive that period because it was really close to being over as some of the band had said.

[KevShmev]

True. Since MP left I loved how they used a coproducer on ADTOE.
Oh wait, no they didn't.
Surely they used an outside writer and coproducer on DT12. Nope!
But on The Astonishing...Sure Kev!

Oh I know...maybe on D/T...

LOL, you know what I mean.  I don't doubt that Petrucci loves having more control now and not a co-leader/producer who always has to get his way, but back in the 90's, he always seemed like, "Hey, whatever it takes to make the song better," not, "Okay, the song has to be all us with no help from anybody."

[TAC]

Sure, but I firmly believe JP had less metal leanings than he does now.

[The Letter M]

Portnoy's history has shown that he is prone to throw fits when he doesn't totally get his way, and I think that explains his negative comments about Falling info Infinity years later, since certain things were done not the way he personally wanted them.  The fact that Petrucci came out years later and said he was happy with the album and that it was in fact the album they wanted to make at the time, spoke volumes.

Seems JP has a commercial side to him. On the 8V Fan Club DVD, JP speaks glowingly about 8V (the album). It actually made me worry when MP left.

I think a better way to put it is, Petrucci does not mind input from a producer and/or outside source if he thinks it can make the song better, while Portnoy generally doesn't like anyone who is not part of the band "butting in and telling me how to make my song better."

...Except, wasn't this how Flying Colors was created in the first place? A producer-created supergroup that helped shape their debut album? The one of their 2 albums that seems to be generally more well-liked than the other (which did not have an outside producer)?

I think maybe MP looks back at FII and sees how it pales in comparison to SFAM, which saw the band taking control of themselves from producers and labels and made a hit. If SFAM had not done well, DT would not be the same, and they probably would've had outside producers in the studio again, if they went back in at all. It was a very 2112-esque moment for them, they proved themselves and were able to carry on as a self-contained unit.

-Marc.

[Samsara]

Yup, I hate FII on it's own merits and I've explained why numerous times. I'm really sick of hearing that MP excuse.

I think the knowledgeable fans obviously made their own decision. But once that MP comment came out, people really ratcheted up the complaints, at least as far as I remember. I knew nothing of the new songs until I bought the album, and just think it was a good Dream Theater album, with more of a Jon Lord-inspired keyboard player. And most folks I knew felt the same. But then came the comment, and the Internet, and then the inevitable slag on FII.

It is what it is, but to me, its hard to deny the impact of MP's statement damning the record, and then the flurry of commentary that came out of the woodwork in agreement.

[pg1067]

Yup, I hate FII on it's own merits and I've explained why numerous times. I'm really sick of hearing that MP excuse.

I think the knowledgeable fans obviously made their own decision. But once that MP comment came out, people really ratcheted up the complaints, at least as far as I remember. I knew nothing of the new songs until I bought the album, and just think it was a good Dream Theater album, with more of a Jon Lord-inspired keyboard player. And most folks I knew felt the same. But then came the comment, and the Internet, and then the inevitable slag on FII.

It is what it is, but to me, its hard to deny the impact of MP's statement damning the record, and then the flurry of commentary that came out of the woodwork in agreement.

I think there are some folks (who typically get saddled with the "MP fanboy" or "MP apologist" label) who ratcheted up the level of negativity about the album based on what MP wrote.  I also think there are probably some newer fans who heard MP's comments before hearing FII and allowed those comments to influence their perception of the album.

That said, has MP really slagged the album (as opposed to speaking harshly about the conditions under which it was created)?  His most succinct comments are those appearing at his web site - http://www.mikeportnoy.com/aboutmike/faq/answers/31.aspx .  He clearly says that, if he had total control, the album would have been different in that it would have been a two CD set with all of the songs that had been recorded (including the original Metropolis Pt. 2) and the original arrangements.  He bemoans the situation that the label put the band in, but he doesn't really say anything bad about the album as it was released (except to the extent he says that the "You Not Me" "experiment" failed).

From my perspective, I completely disagree about "You Not Me" (as mentioned previously).  Also, MP says that the "few good songs on Infinity" include "New Millennium" and "Just Let Me Breathe" (not coincidentally, those are two of the three songs for which he wrote the lyrics), but I think those are the two worst songs on the album.  That being said, and as much as I think FII is a mediocre album, I'm very glad they didn't make the album that MP wanted to make because that would have meant we would never have gotten SFAM.

[TAC]

Yeah, and the fact that it would've been an even more mediocre album.

[Ben_Jamin]

Well I first heard the Falling Into Infinity songs mainly from their 5 years in a Livetime dvd and Budakon. You can see how bummed I was to find out about the demo songs they played not being included in the studio.

I've always liked New Millenium.

You Not Me, I enjoyed as a simple DT song with a pop chorus. After hearing You Or Me, I felt they should've kept that middle section with piano, showcased Derek's nice piano sound.

Peruvian skies is ok, it was nice knowing the influence when they incorporated both into the live version. I wouldn't mind if this came back.

Hollow years is ok on the album, I dont mind the demo pre chorus either. If they added that also in Budakon it'd be my favorite version.

Burning My Soul, its alright. Don't really listen to it much. I like the way the original intro was though. Made it more sinister.

Hells Kitchen is amazing on its own. Just missing the Tubular Bells JR did on Instrumedley.

Lines In The Sand...love it all, also wish they would've kept that demo verse.

Just Let Me Breathe is a good live song. Heard that one live my first DT show at Gigantour.  The middle section is awesome as well.

Anna Lee, I love it. Really Elton John sounding tone Derek has with his piano.

Trial of Tears among my top 10 songs.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

FII really showcases the potential that DT has/had in writing legitimately catchy and infectious songs of a more conventional nature. Hollow Years is a primo example of that. But it's clearly not something the band is interested in doing given their catalog of the last 20 years.

It's very much the black sheep of the DT discography to me, and the reasons for that are all but well documented already. It's an album that I can take it or leave it at the end of the day, but it does have some amazing tracks, I won't deny.

[pg1067]

Well I first heard the Falling Into Infinity songs mainly from their 5 years in a Livetime dvd and Budakon. You can see how bummed I was to find out about the demo songs they played not being included in the studio.

That's only "Cover My Eyes" and "Speak to Me" (on 5YIAL -- none of the FII demos appear on the Budokan DVD).

[Setlist Scotty]

Hollow years is ok on the album, I dont mind the demo pre chorus either. If they added that also in Budakon it'd be my favorite version.

You mean like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fGUdQLi48s

FII really showcases the potential that DT has/had in writing legitimately catchy and infectious songs of a more conventional nature. Hollow Years is a primo example of that. But it's clearly not something the band is interested in doing given their catalog of the last 20 years.

I don't know if I'd say that is true. Certainly the band has never hid nor denied the "pop" influences or side of the band, although it does take more of a back seat to their heavy and prog sides. But I'd say that there's typically at least a track or two on each of their albums that would fit in with that. So while it might not be their main priority, it is something that they have some interest in.