2025 Ranking The Epics....

[wolfking]

I cannot seriously rank SDOIT in this list. The whole "it's one song!!1" thing is kind of silly, people rarely listen to it that way. I love SDOIT (album and the suite of songs) but it doesn't have that single entity epic feel like these others do.

Agree.

[durga2112]

I do 

As do I! In fact, unless I've got my Google speaker shuffling Dream Theater songs or something, the only way I ever listen to it is as one song. Sure, some of the transitions are not the smoothest, but then there's also the "Goodnight Kiss"/"Solitary Shell" transition, which is so smooth that you don't even realize it actually started 90 seconds ago.

[Northern Lion]

As do I! In fact, unless I've got my Google speaker shuffling Dream Theater songs or something, the only way I ever listen to it is as one song. Sure, some of the transitions are not the smoothest, but then there's also the "Goodnight Kiss"/"Solitary Shell" transition, which is so smooth that you don't even realize it actually started 90 seconds ago.

I took the song and spliced it together using Audacity and was able to smooth out all of the transitions. It takes a bit of work and I needed to watch some YouTube videos to learn a few simple techniques, but the final result sounds smooth and professional.

[Trav]

1. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
2. Octavarium
3. A Change of Seasons
4. The Count of Tuscany
5. The Shadow Man Incident
6. Illumination Theory
7. In the Presence of Enemies
8. A View from the Top of the World

[PixelDream]

A Change of Seasons (10)
Octavarium (10)

I think these are both top 5 DT songs and they're both equal. I'll put ACOS on top because it was their first.

The Shadow Man Incident (9)

The instrumental section is absolutely mindblowing to me and is DT at the top of their game IMO. It doesn't get much better than that. To me, this epic wraps the DNA of Octavarium, ITPoE and In The Name of God together into a very powerful package. I love it and JLB sounds killer in it. I hadn't expected such an amazing epic from them at this point.

The Count of Tuscany (9)

Well, the intro, the ambient JP section and the outro are unbeatable. A large part of the song is the odd-meter Megadeth riffage with a cool story (that does get its conclusion at the end in a fantastic way) but ultimately those parts keep it from being a 10 for me.

In The Presence of Enemies (8)

Part 1 is absolutely fantastic; part 2 has its moments. I never really cared for the Dark Master theme though. A really entertaining epic but ultimately I'm not incredibly moved by it.

A View From The Top Of The World (7)

I have to listen to it more probably. I really don't care for the chorus. The quiet parts and following build-up are good.

Illumination Theory (6)

I used to like this one, but the ending is just too euphoric in a forced manner or something. Also the terrible sounding production of DT12 doesn't help. I remember it sounded pretty cool on Breaking the Fourth Wall though.



I like SDOIT a lot but I can't compare it to the others, mostly due to length.

[The Curious Orange]

1. A Change of Seasons. The original and still the best, it's a remarkably coherent work.
2. Octavarium. The ending is spectacular, and more than makes up for the more fragmented nature of the song.
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence. Deserves points for sheer ambition, even if it is too long.
4. The Count of Tuscany. Another surprisingly coherent piece.
5. A View From The Top of the World. I always enjoy this.
6. The Shadow Man Incident. No so much an epic as a really long song. This will rise up the list with time, I'm sure.
7. In The Presence of Enemies. First half great, second half insufferably naff.
8. Illumination Theory.

[Mladen]

At the moment, I'd probably rank them like this:

1. Octavarium
2. A Change of seasons
3. In the presence of enemies
4. Six degrees of inner turbulence
5. The Count of Tuscany
6. The Shadow man incident
7. Illumination theory
8. A View from the top of the world

All of them are great, except for A View.

[mariner]

1.  Octavarium - DT's greatest epic.
2.  Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence - I know, I don't consider it one song either.  But since the OP did, I will rank it here.
3.  The Count of Tuscany - agree with the above poster - top 10 DT song.
4.  A Change of Seasons - the very first epic (if not counting Metropolis); still holds up well.
5.  The Shadow Man Incident - I like it!  It sounds fresh and there are some amazing riffs and that solo section!
6.  Illumination Theory - the orchestral section brings me to tears... every time
7.  A View From The Top of the World - I like it...  just love the others more
8.  In the Presence of Enemies - never loved the splitting into two songs and it doesn't flow as cohesively for me that other epics do.

[cheesus]

It's too early to accurately grade/judge The Shadow Man Incident, but I would say A Change of Seasons is the one and only A+ plus here and the clear number one.

Everything else probably gets somewhere in the B range, with Octavarium, In the Presence of Enemies (which is aging better for me than I expected) and A View from the Top of the World all probably getting a B+.

I love parts of Six Degrees, but it doesn't feel like a single song to me and I literally never listen to it from start to finish, so I can't call it a great song per se.

The Count of Tuscany gets a full grade demotion for the lyrics, and Illumination Theory's overly shmaltyz ending takes a tad away from an otherwise stellar epic.

This is the closest to my thoughts.

A Change of Seasons - in a league of its own. Relistened for the first time in a while and it is just so good

Octavarium - the pacing is perfect with so many great moments. The overall piece works so well its easy to forgive any minor quibbles

View - a real grower. Compositionally very coherent and well structured. Like many I waffle on the outro but it works for me enough of the time and it fits the general theme of the song

In the Presence of Enemies - has aged really well. In the context of the album (i.e. after Forsaken, Ministry, etc) the "dark master" stuff doesn't seem so out of place or too pulpy

Six Degrees - I like a lot of it but don't see it as one piece and generally only want to revisit the first disc. Not more than the sum of its parts.

Count of Tuscany - has the makings of a truly classic piece between the intro and outro, but brought down by the lyrics and general direction of the verses/choruses. I don't necessarily mind the ambient section but it is a bit of an oddity. Seeing this on Dreamsonic made me appreciate it a bit more.

Shadow Man Incident - new and fun, not as tight structurally as the above pieces

Illumination Theory - I liked the description earlier in the thread about how on paper it should work well but just doesn't really come together for me. The orchestral thing is nice but doesn't quite feel earned. Its fun to think about how I&W/Awake-era James would sound on this one. I often forget how this goes until I hear it again

[Progmaniac1988]

1 -Six degrees of inner turbulence (10)
2 - Octavarium (10)
3 - A Change Of Seasons (10)
4 - The Count of Tuscany (9.9)
5 - In the Presence of enemies (9)
6 - The shadow man incident (8.9)
7 - illumination theory (8.5)
8 - view from the top of the world (7)

This was hard because many of these songs are neck and neck with rank for me lol. Especially TSMI, ITPOE, and IT... those 3 are all amazing and VERY close rank wise.

[hefdaddy42]

I cannot seriously rank SDOIT in this list. The whole "it's one song!!1" thing is kind of silly, people rarely listen to it that way. I love SDOIT (album and the suite of songs) but it doesn't have that single entity epic feel like these others do.

I do.

Just because you don't doesn't mean that "people" don't.

[Jamesman42]

I do.

Just because you don't doesn't mean that "people" don't.

I said "people rarely listen to it that way". That seems to be true reading this forum for almost two decades. There will be times I want to listen all the way through and do.

[hefdaddy42]

I said "people rarely listen to it that way". That seems to be true reading this forum for almost two decades. There will be times I want to listen all the way through and do.

I mean, I don't know.  I know that there are certainly some people who don't (it's usually the people who get up in arms that it isn't actually one song, but 8), but I don't know how big a group that is.

[Jamesman42]

I mean, I don't know.  I know that there are certainly some people who don't (it's usually the people who get up in arms that it isn't actually one song, but 8), but I don't know how big a group that is.

Well, we all probably have our favorite parts of it, so if people are going to want to hear something from it, and they don't have the time, they'll likely go for the parts they like most. I said what I said based on observation but I could be wrong.

[Cavalry of Despair]

Excellent:
1. A Change Of Seasons
2. Octavarium
3. Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence

Pretty Good:
4. The Count Of Tuscany
5. In The Presence Of Enemies
6. Illumination Theory

Haven't listened enough to confidently say:
A View From The Top of the World
The Shadow Man Incident

//
The top 2 are my top 2 DT songs period, and if I classified Six Degrees as one song, (which I personally don't) the strongest elements would probably make it a top 5 track. From a purely musical standpoint, The Count would rank as one of my top 10 DT compositions, but unfortunately JP shit the bed so hard with 90% of the lyrics to the point where they make the song feel like a joke, so it's further down in my overall ranking. ITPOE is pretty fun, but I feel like this is the point where the finales of each epic start to feel really contrived. Same goes for Illumination Theory, which lyrically I feel is rather uninspired. Personally, I feel like after 8VM and certainly by the time of IT, these "epics" began feeling gimmicky and border on self-parody. DT has been kind of stereotyped as "that band with the complex instrumental breaks and the 20-minute songs", and I think especially after the backlash against the formulaic deviation that was The Astonishing, they've been writing within this framework rather than from a place of more genuine inspiration. The lyrics of songs like IT and View are a reflection of this predicament. They write these grandiose pieces, then realize that they need a lyrical concept that justifies that grandeur, so they end up going with something so broad that it ends up feeling impersonal and bland. Compare that with their first "epic", ACOS, the length of which was a consequence of the lyrical breadth rather than vice-versa (according to Portnoy).

/rant over

[hefdaddy42]

Well, we all probably have our favorite parts of it, so if people are going to want to hear something from it, and they don't have the time, they'll likely go for the parts they like most. I said what I said based on observation but I could be wrong.

I could also be wrong.

Who can say?

[Jamesman42]

I could also be wrong.

Who can say?

..you can, both a god and a moderator.

A Goderator!

[hefdaddy42]

..you can, both a god and a moderator.

A Goderator!

[Revenge319]

Well, we all probably have our favorite parts of it, so if people are going to want to hear something from it, and they don't have the time, they'll likely go for the parts they like most. I said what I said based on observation but I could be wrong.

I consider SDOIT one full song, but I have occasionally only wanted to listen to a couple movements of the song so I do appreciate that they're separate tracks on the CD. That, and sometimes I might not be able to listen to the full song in one sitting so it's good to have the separate tracks as a bookmark.

[Trav]

I've personally never thought of Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence as one song. More as a suite of songs. I consider Solitary Shell a top ten song for me, therefore it exists on its own lol. But for the purposes of things like this, I go along with the crowd and just call it one song.

[evilasiojr]

1) Octavarium
2) A Change Of Seasons
3) In The Presence Of Enemies
4) Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
5) The Shadow Man Incident
6) A View From The Top Of The World
7) The Count Of Tuscany
8) Illumination Theory

[svisser]

1. Octavarium
2. A Change of Seasons
3. In the Presence of Enemies
4. The Count of Tuscany
5. Six Degrees
6. A View from the Top of the World
7. Shadow Man
8. Illumination Theory

Octavarium is the best song they have ever written imo.

[lovethedrake]

This is really tough to do and I am going to exclude SDOIT because I prefer to think of them as separate tracks.

1. Change of Seasons








2. Octavarium
3. A View from the Top of the World
4. Shadow Man Incident

5. Count of Tuscany
6. Illumination Theory


7. In the presence of Enemies

[CraftyCaleb2483]

people rarely listen to it that way.

I only listen to the live at Score version, so count me out of that
Some of the sound effects in the original are too disturbing for me

[Lonk]

I only listen to the live at Score version, so count me out of that
Some of the sound effects in the original are too disturbing for me

I'm curious, which sound effects?

[CraftyCaleb2483]

I'm curious, which sound effects?

Particularly the ones in GK

[Lonk]

Particularly the ones in GK

That's fair, but given what the song is about, they work to enhance it. Personally, I love that part, that guitar solo is great

[Shadow2222]

Working from pretty good to amazing:

8. In the Presence of Enemies
7. The Shadow Man Incident (might improve)
6. Illumination Theory
5. AVFTTOTW
4. The Count of Tuscany
3. Six Degrees
2. A Change of Seasons
1. Octavarium

[TAC]

I've personally never thought of Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence as one song. More as a suite of songs. I consider Solitary Shell a top ten song for me, therefore it exists on its own lol. But for the purposes of things like this, I go along with the crowd and just call it one song.

While Solitary Shell isn't a Top 10 song for me, it is the standout track. But I generally feel the same as you regarding 6 D's as one song. I certainly accept that it is, but I just don't listen to it in that way.

[BeatriceNB]

Well, we all probably have our favorite parts of it, so if people are going to want to hear something from it, and they don't have the time, they'll likely go for the parts they like most. I said what I said based on observation but I could be wrong.

Due to length and structure, I think SDOIT is kinda like a symphonic work (as a generic term for lengthy orchestral works, SDOIT doesn't have an adagio and scherzo bla bla bla), so in that case, I have listened to specific moments of Beethoven or Mahler symphonies, especially when time is a factor, but it doesn't mean I think of them as multiple pieces.

That's fair, but given what the song is about, they work to enhance it. Personally, I love that part, that guitar solo is great

I also like the sound effects. The movement itself makes me think of a fusion of Don't Leave Me Now and darker spin on the solo of Another Brick In The Wall (pt. II)

[svisser]

I guess if the logic follows for SDOIT, then The Astonishing should be on the list as well.

[hefdaddy42]

I guess if the logic follows for SDOIT, then The Astonishing should be on the list as well.

Not really.

[bosk1]

I guess if the logic follows for SDOIT, then The Astonishing should be on the list as well.

No, not at all. 

[Northern Lion]

I guess if the logic follows for SDOIT, then The Astonishing should be on the list as well.

No, they are not the same.

I totally understand a fan preferring to listen to SDoIT as separate songs.  However, it was intended to be one song.  The band says this, the album says this.  I don't understand why some are so bent on arguing that it is separate songs?  It's the same idea as Haken's Messiah Complex.  It's separate tracks but intended as one song.  This shouldn't even be up for argument.

The Astonishing, is a concept album like Scenes From a Memory.  I don't see why this is a difficult concept?

[svisser]

No, they are not the same.

I totally understand a fan preferring to listen to SDoIT as separate songs.  However, it was intended to be one song.  The band says this, the album says this.  I don't understand why some are so bent on arguing that it is separate songs?  It's the same idea as Haken's Messiah Complex.  It's separate tracks but intended as one song.  This shouldn't even be up for argument.

The Astonishing, is a concept album like Scenes From a Memory.  I don't see why this is a difficult concept?

I agree on the differences. I am just being funny, but I do like to play devil's advocate from time to time.

I see the validity in some arguments I hear for SDOIT. Pushing what the band says aside for a second, I can see the logic. After all, Scenes and TA are albums based on one central idea with a central theme both musically and thematically. They start with an overture that encapsulates that musical theme. SDOIT is a single CD (arguably around the length of a typical album) that has all the same elements. So, who knows? Perhaps DT did this on purpose to forever add tension in the fan base.

These are the things that keep me up at night (not really).