From Reddit: Jordan Rudess: A Complicated Legend

[Wukong]

I saw this on Reddit, but thought it would be an interesting discussion to have here...
Honestly makes a lot of good points I had not thought of before.

- - -

I'm always shocked at how much criticism JL gets and how little JR does. He's obviously really gifted and his playing has enhanced the band's sound on numerous occasions.

However, his solos can (and frequently do) ruin the vibe of a song for me, and his choice of keyboard patches is... unfortunate. The longevity of his carnival piano tones throughout pretty much every album since SFAM is truly baffling. (Anybody reminded of the I Think You Should Leave skit when he comes in?)

In recent years, as the band's instrumentals have driven further away from developing a theme or creative experimentation in favor of dueling key board/guitar solos, his contributions stick out as the least pleasing to the ear (however fast or technical they may be).

Unrelated, but I also can't help but think he's complacent in the band's use of AI art.

I'm curious as to what others think?

[DTA]

Keyboard solos in general always sound annoying to me. Derek's were the most pleasing to my ear on FII, and Jordan's are pretty hit or miss.

Jordan seems under-utilized as of late. Maybe he's more interested in being creative with his solo stuff and takes a more minimal creative approach with DT. The sound of DT has definitely become more guitar-driven, with Jordan often being buried underneath or doubling the guitar. Think of something like the verse of Surrounded where the keys take the lead and the guitar supports underneath with interesting chords - I miss that vibe a lot, and Jordan just doesn't seem to have too many moments where that vibe occurs.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

It's a bit strange to me that given how good of a musician he is, the solos haven't been better over the years.

[emtee]

This is a thread that I would like to contribute to but after some thought, I will opt not to.

[Schurftkut]

that's what i loved about KM's solos most, he always composed them to be as melodic and flashy possible. JR usually skips the melodic and composing part... He is certainly capable of doing so looking at the solo in Octavarium, i don't understand why all his solos aren't as well thought out.

[Dedalus]

I could have written most of these criticisms.

I totally agree that his solos can be really annoying. I've never done the math, but I always find that I like about a third of his solos and dislike the other two thirds.

Sometimes they can really ruin a song. Or even an entire album. One of the main reasons I dislike ToT is the endless and insufferable duels between JR and JP on several songs. Very annoying.

And the other day I commented on one of the keyboard timbers he chose for the new song and how I'm already tired of it. He could do so many interesting things in that department.

However, there are some very positive things too. He contributes well with orchestrations and pads (a good example is in ABM) and I think he did an amazing job on The Astonishing.

[three__days]

I basically agree with this. When the leads focus on being melodic, they're normally quite good, but they too often just feel like scale practice.

I hated the random ragtime/circus stuff for a long time, but weirdly I thought the dip into that style on 'A View...' (can't recall which song) was the first time it really made sense - being mixed really nicely and atmospherically over the music, rather than abruptly shifting into it.

[Orbert]

I agree with pretty much all of the above.  Jordan is clearly a very gifted musician and composer.  We've heard the results.  And a lot of his work with Dream Theater is great: the orchestrations, the arrangements, even the pads and stuff he does background to JP's endless soloing.  But JR's solos are often so left-field that they don't contribute anything to the song overall; in fact, they detract.  But DT has gotten into endless wankery as a thing anyway.  The JP/JR duels are usually technically impressive, but I still prefer something more organic.

As pointed out, KM was the best at creating melodic solos that felt organic to the song overall.  They weren't just wanking/showing off, they were part of the songs.

[nobloodyname]

This is a thread that I would like to contribute to but after some thought, I will opt not to.

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice"

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

One thing to keep in mind is JR is in his social security collecting years, whereas the rest of the boys are all much younger. As JR's body begins to fail, it is clear his mind is not, and maybe that's why he has embraced technology more. I think it makes sense for him to proceed this way at this time

[SeRoX]

He is the main reason why I don't enjoy much DT anymore. He can be number 1 keybord player out there but his working is not my cup of tea, especially since SDOIT. From starting SC to this day his solos sound mostly out of place and arcade music.

[durga2112]

Someone tell me why
I chose this life
This superficial lie
Constant compromise

endless wankery

[TheOutlawXanadu]

In recent years, as the band's instrumentals have driven further away from developing a theme or creative experimentation in favor of dueling key board/guitar solos, his contributions stick out as the least pleasing to the ear (however fast or technical they may be).

The dueling keyboard-guitar solos were probably at their height during the late MP era, and if anything were dialed back after Mangini joined the band. I don't think this is a recent phenomena - It's been the case for over 20 years.

That said, I've opined on several occasions how I don't think the band are taking full advantage of what the keyboards can offer, and I don't think it's only because of JR. Their music has become almost completely guitar driven, whereas through Scenes or even Six Degrees, there was more of a balance. It can be a bit frustrating because JR freaking crushes it on projects like Liquid Tension Experiment.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

The dueling keyboard-guitar solos were probably at their height during the late MP era, and if anything were dialed back after Mangini joined the band. I don't think this is a recent phenomena - It's been the case for over 20 years.

That said, I've opined on several occasions how I don't think the band are taking full advantage of what the keyboards can offer, and I don't think it's only because of JR. Their music has become almost completely guitar driven, whereas through Scenes or even Six Degrees, there was more of a balance. It can be a bit frustrating because JR freaking crushes it on projects like Liquid Tension Experiment.

That makes a lot of sense actually. With the shorter song lengths and then the Astonishing I wouldn't be surprised to learn the dueling solos thing decreased in frequency or in length during the MM years.

[Wukong]

The dueling keyboard-guitar solos were probably at their height during the late MP era, and if anything were dialed back after Mangini joined the band. I don't think this is a recent phenomena - It's been the case for over 20 years.

That said, I've opined on several occasions how I don't think the band are taking full advantage of what the keyboards can offer, and I don't think it's only because of JR. Their music has become almost completely guitar driven, whereas through Scenes or even Six Degrees, there was more of a balance. It can be a bit frustrating because JR freaking crushes it on projects like Liquid Tension Experiment.

I think I agree with you. I actually think JR has gotten better in recent years, though he seems more subdued (aside from the Astonishing, which I think is perfect from beginning to end).

[Schurftkut]

i'd actually want him to go back to his Kurzweil leadsound. Blended way better with the guitars and less wowowow squeel bullshit

[hefdaddy42]

i'd actually want him to go back to his Kurzweil leadsound. Blended way better with the guitars and less wowowow squeel bullshit

This I agree with.

[Pettor]

Has JR not received criticism? Alongside JL, he's certainly one of the most criticized members of the group. That said, he also garners a lot of high praise. I often see people arguing that he's the most talented member of the group, which is no small statement. Still, his style does divide opinion.

For me, stepping outside the DT bubble always reminds me how much I appreciate JR. His piano composition skills are truly remarkable. His work on SFAM and SDOIT played a big role in why I became hooked on the band. I'd love to see more metal songs driven by piano sections like those; I'm not sure why that approach faded. Even TOT includes some incredible piano moments that, surprisingly, sound very metal. Check out the incredible patches at the end of ITNOG:
https://youtu.be/Zf_OlbY3K5s?si=uxkZl4r2_ZMwdwe7&t=805

I find the guitar vs. keyboard battles to be dull, though truly problematic ones are rare. To me, the shift feels more tied to a change in their composition style. They don't write music the same way they did on SFAM and SDOIT. It's just something about the flow and structure that is quite different. Felt like the songs could go anywhere or naturally progress where they needed, where I feel since ADTOE (or somewhere around that time) it became more predictable even when being heavily prog-oriented.

Honestly, I was going to say I understand the dilemma and how JR can be seen as a problem but I love his style too much. He is a big part of why I love DT and JP + JR is the dream team 

[TheOutlawXanadu]

That makes a lot of sense actually. With the shorter song lengths and then the Astonishing I wouldn't be surprised to learn the dueling solos thing decreased in frequency or in length during the MM years.

I distinctly remember this was a huge topic of debate back in the day. I think I joined the forums in 2007 or something and every third topic was how the band were wanking too much and everything was a five minute keyboard-guitar duel.

[Dedalus]

It can be a bit frustrating because JR freaking crushes it on projects like Liquid Tension Experiment.

But there are a lot of similarities between LTE and DT post-SDoIT. Especially in the heavy riffs and the more instrumentally crazy parts.

I think there is a bit more space for melodic parts of Rudess in LTE because there are no vocals. So the keyboard and guitar take on the role of bringing more richly melodic parts to the songs. In DT JR loses this role a lot, because there are all the parts with vocals doing this.

[Pettor]

I distinctly remember this was a huge topic of debate back in the day. I think I joined the forums in 2007 or something and every third topic was how the band were wanking too much and everything was a five minute keyboard-guitar duel.

Yeah yeah, BC&SL I think reached the peak for that discussion.  I think there's a lot of good stuff on BC&SL, but this is where the solos reached a certain uncreative wanky nature more than before.

[HOF]

I tend to think DT just has never quite figured out how to really incorporate Jordan's style into their music in a coherent way.

Oddly enough, I was listening to this excellent Advent Horizon album last night, which features a solo by Jordan on this track here (timestamped):

https://youtu.be/92oODXM5yDo?t=210

And while that could have been any number of DT solos in terms of the basic structure and all, I thought last night how it just fit really well both sonically and melodically into the momentum of the song. It wasn't like they had to take a major detour to find a spot for him, the song is just rocking along and then he comes in and pulls off this awesome solo with a strong lead sound that fits the vibe of the song.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

We'll see what happens with Parasomnia but my impression is that the more metal the sound, the less he is featured generally speaking.

[TAC]

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice"

 

[evilasiojr]

I would add saying I think DT solos in general are falling short to my taste in recent records, it just seems to me like that moment when I lose interest and they just play whatever. But I will also say I liked JRs solos much more than JPs on A View.

On JR in general, I think he contributes a lot as well to the harmonies in their composition and I think recently there are some great examples, but it just seems too that they haven't highlighted that aspect of the band in their music recently. It's still there, but there's no much emphasis to it I'd say.

[Progmaniac1988]

I personally love the dueling solos... I actually miss the intensity of the solo trade offs from SFAM thru BCSL. Not everyone's cup of tea, but certainly mine!

I do feel JR had some really great moments recently on AVFTTOTW. I'd arguably say that was JR's best album performance since Octavarium. Lots of atmospheric soundscapes, great orchestrations, and I really dig his leads. So far from what I've heard from Parasomnia I like what I'm hearing from him. The grand piano on night terror, great orchestrations on a broken man.

So I'd say he's a member that definitely has some amazing shining albums with DT! But also had some albums he was kind of less memorable, but he always has his moments. Even the orchestra moment in IT, it's a real orchestra but that whole segment REEKS of JR's writing.

[ReaperKK]

When I first heard Jordan back in the Six Degrees days I absolutely loved his playing, his textures and solo work on Six Degrees was rich and filled with these beautiful tones. Going backwards to the Met. Pt. 2 days I thought his playing there was so unique and fun. 8V is around the time I thought his creativity (didn't want to say playing because he is absolute technical monster of a player) had stagnated.

As more and more albums went by I really felt his playing just started to fall flat. I've seen tons of posts over the years talking about Portnoy and his bag of tricks, and lack of practice, but I think that same argument can be applied to Jordan. Do I think Jordan doesn't practice? No, I'm not a keyboard player but he sounds like he is still in top form. But he doesn't sound like he practices writing in a meaningful way, it sounds like he is going to go into the studio to just crank out another DT album. I sort of see it in his playing on livestreams or posts on insta, he'll start with one of the most beautiful melodies you've ever heard and launch into a flurry of notes that seems like him going on autopilot. I can understand it's maybe a stylistic choice now, but at some point you gotta shake things up, and I don't think he's done anything ground breaking in some time.

Personally Jordan peaked around the time of Evening With JP + JR, that album had some amazing playing by Jordan. Beautiful melodies with some crazy soloing as an added touch.

Also I'm like 5 beers in on Christmas Eve so this post might make no sense.

[Whitefish]

I both agree and disagree with this post. When JR joined the band he gave them a shot in the arm. He added so much to SFAM and his contributions are a large part of what make that album so enthralling. (There is a reason the ragtime section on TDOE is so iconic. It's exciting, unexpected, but really works both musically and thematically.) That continued in to 6DOIT, where JR's orchestral composition style really added a new dimension to the band.

However, I feel that after 6DOIT the band as a whole found a formula for their songwriting, and as time has progressed that formula has become more stale. Up to and including 6DOIT, the band as a whole had fresher ideas and fresher approaches on each album. Since 6DOIT the band has gradually fallen into a standard approach to song writing.

(I adore ToT by the way, but the songs do tend to fit a formula. But I think on ToT it's just really well executed. It probably helps that this was the band's first "heavy" album. Over time the "heavy" songs have also become more formulaic.)

So I agree that JR's contributions have become more formulaic, and the quirky stuff he does that was so fresh on SFAM is now less exciting. But it would be unfair to single JR out for this. I think it reflects the band's approach as a whole.

[illusionist]

Jordan is such a gifted composer, player, and musician in general.
His first DT album, SFaM, is a masterpiece and it wouldn't have come out the way it did if it wasn't for him.
Also, The Astonishing and SDOIT (the suite) are his equally most prominent and better contributions to the band.
In all the other DT albums he has been a part of, some are better than others in terms of his keyboards.
While i enjoy his orchestrations and he does a terrific and even stellar job each time he weaves a musical carpet for JP's guitar to glide upon, his solos are definitely not so enjoyable anymore.
We all hear it, wether we like it or not, he's become too repetitive and they're just not interesting anymore.
Where he shines though is when he uses his piano sounds, see Blind Faith. How i miss these moments.
After all he is a pianist and not a keyboardist. But i guess the other guys have talked him into not using his piano as much and instead focus on his pig sound solos  (sounds more metal i guess? Who knows)
But we also have to take into account his solo work here as well as his age.
I mean he has some magnificent solo albums and that's when he is the pianist he has spent his whole life to be, so maybe he is looking for a different approach when the time for a new DT album comes.
Also,he is 67 years old, the oldest in the band.
I don't know how many of us realise this, but 67 is quite old for somebody to tour the world over and over again, especially playing the material Dream Theater has.
It's quite demanding and challenging both physically and mentally to be able to do this day in and day out.
So my guess is that fatigue has taken a toll on him, and he most likely doesn't want to experiment as much as before, kind of 'ok we have to write a new album now, i won't bother to be as fresh or innovative as i can be in my writing, i just want to focus more on the sonic element and not on the compositional one'
And that's probably how each and every new DT album is born.
But, in general, i think that the guys in the band are so so talented, and clever, and experienced, and hard workers, that they could have released even better albums than the ones they finally did.
And I'm talking about my favorite band of all times. But i do believe that in some ways they didn't reach their full potential.
And i mean that by using Jordan to his best, taking more time between albums so that they are more inspired, creating way better album cover artwork to match the epicness of the music etc.
Just my 2 cents.
Merry Christmas to all!

[Dedalus]

Also,he is 67 years old, the oldest in the band.
I don't know how many of us realise this, but 67 is quite old for somebody to tour the world over and over again, especially playing the material Dream Theater has.
It's quite demanding and challenging both physically and mentally to be able to do this day in and day out.

People have been saying that Mike Portnoy return has brought some energy back into the band and they seem refreshed.

While JP and JLB certainly seem refreshed, I honestly didn't see that for the other two at the show I attended. Myung seems the same as always (we're used to it by now) and Rudess seemed quiet and somewhat a bit bureaucratic at the show. But I also thought about age. Maybe it's taking its toll.

In any case, as they are all competent musicians (and JLB managed to improve his performance) their show works completely as expected, no matter if one is more vigorous or another is playing bass in his parallel universe and another is feeling a little of the weight of age.

[Mladen]

Though I thoroughly enjoyed the show I attended in November, it didn't appear that the band was more energized than before. Myung was more in his own bubble than ever, Rudess also appeared slightly detached in spots. James is killing it as a frontman, though, and JP and MP do have cool interactions, but it's not like the entire band exchanges vibes with one another throughout.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

From what I've seen which is only 2-3 bootlegs, people look and sound basically the same as they always have. Crowds seem quite a bit more energized however.

[Dedalus]

Though I thoroughly enjoyed the show I attended in November, it didn't appear that the band was more energized than before. Myung was more in his own bubble than ever, Rudess also appeared slightly detached in spots. James is killing it as a frontman, though, and JP and MP do have cool interactions, but it's not like the entire band exchanges vibes with one another throughout.

Energized is a bad word, I think. No one there has become Bruce Dickinson. It's still a bunch of nerds standing around playing difficult stuff on their instruments.

JLB seems more confident and in control of the stage, which I think is great. I think he's the one who seems the most refreshed. JP is the same JP, but he seems happy with Mike's return. That's what I got.

[Dedalus]

Myung was more in his own bubble than ever

About Myung, you are already the second person who says the same thing (besides the Brazilian YouTuber I mentioned in another post). I didn't notice much difference, but maybe I wasn't very observant about it. In any case, he only left his corner to minimally interact with JP in PMU and it was brief. The rest of the show he was in Myungland. 

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

now that JR is collecting Social Security maybe he doesn't need to work anymore so he is just taking it a bit easier than the rest of the boys. He's already the best keyboard player in the universe so he doesn't need to try that hard anymore.


Merry Christmas everyone!~