Thomas Lang about the auditions

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Based on what they presented in the video, Peter wildoer would have been a perfectly sensible choice. Sounds like there was too much interpretation from Lang and Donati but if they were really blown away I'm sure they could have worked on that aspect. Actually the only choice that never would have worked out was Marco because of things he says he said in the interview.

I don't get why people think the auditions were already decided/somewhat decided or Mikes to lose. The band had no history playing with any of these guys. In most cases most of the DT individually had no history with these players. Why wouldn't they actually just audition them all and pick the best one based on that?

[Adami]

I don't get why people think the auditions were already decided/somewhat decided or Mikes to lose. The band had no history playing with any of these guys. In most cases most of the DT individually had no history with these players. Why wouldn't they actually just audition them all and pick the best one based on that?

I agree with your overall point. And while the band didn't have experience playing with these guys, James had MM on three of his albums and Peter on 2-3 at that point as well.

[Max Kuehnau]

Based on what they presented in the video, Peter wildoer would have been a perfectly sensible choice. Sounds like there was too much interpretation from Lang and Donati but if they were really blown away I'm sure they could have worked on that aspect. Actually the only choice that never would have worked out was Marco because of things he says he said in the interview.

I don't get why people think the auditions were already decided/somewhat decided or Mikes to lose. The band had no history playing with any of these guys. In most cases most of the DT individually had no history with these players. Why wouldn't they actually just audition them all and pick the best one based on that?

MM appeared on James' first three solo albums (all of them great IMHO) and Peter Wildoer appeared on at least two after these. I'd hazard a guess that everyone in DT knew who MM was, because of his work with Steve Vai (and his general technical abilities). Aside from that, MM and MP did a double drum solo on MP's kit during one of the American shows of the 6D tour in 2002 (I think it was in Boston)

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

MM appeared on James' first three solo albums (all of them great IMHO) and Peter Wildoer appeared on at least two after these. I'd hazard a guess that everyone in DT knew who MM was, because of his work with Steve Vai (and his general technical abilities). Aside from that, MM and MP did a double drum solo on MP's kit during one of the American shows of the 6D tour in 2002 (I think it was in Boston)

For sure they all knew who he was. a sophisticated group of musicians like this I could not see hiring any person to be in the band without working him out first though. Those prior things could have helped with people being assured he was easy to work with.

[MoraWintersoul]

I feel like it was Mike's to lose because he was the right age, living in the area, even taught at Berklee, and he obviously gave the vibe that he would give it his all. He wouldn't feel like an outsider, they had things in common beyond just wanting to play in Dream Theater.

[Mladen]

I feel like it was Mike's to lose because he was the right age, living in the area, even taught at Berklee, and he obviously gave the vibe that he would give it his all. He wouldn't feel like an outsider, they had things in common beyond just wanting to play in Dream Theater.

All of this. Apart from that, he appeared to be the only guy who HONESTLY wanted the job.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I feel like it was Mike's to lose because he was the right age, living in the area, even taught at Berklee, and he obviously gave the vibe that he would give it his all. He wouldn't feel like an outsider, they had things in common beyond just wanting to play in Dream Theater.

All good points but I think the biggest thing was that whoever the person was had to blow them away at the audition. As good as all these guys are that didn't happen across the board.

[Wukong]

I believe the theories that the band "wanted" Mangini all along, but still considered other candidates.
I mean, isn't that how MOST employers are when they post positions? I feel like it'd be pretty strange for the band to post the drummer position and not have any clue who they think they might like to see in the drum chair from the outset. Still doesn't mean they weren't leaving themselves open to let the process dictate course.

[devieira73]

Also the way I see it.

Kind of reinforcing it, it seemed like DT was truly torn between Mike Mangini and Marco Minnemann in the end. From a Marco interview (I don't have the link, it was sometime ago), he seemed to imply that DT consulted him about if he was really interested to join and prioritize DT over his other projects before DT invited Mike to the band. I know, a lot of semi-assumptions here, but it's just my opinion based on a lot of interviews I've read/watched with those directly involved in that process.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I watched that Marco interview in Italy and I think if he said all that in his DT audition there was no chance the band would consider him as a serious option. Seems like a very easy pass.

[bosk1]

This discussion is very interesting to me.  On one hand, there is a lot behind the scenes that we will never know, and it is fun to think and speculate about.  I think there are two perspectives:  (1) The reality and actual process of hiring a replacement drummer.  And (2) the marketing/PR view of that process.  The general public who were not part of the process were given a very specific, carefully curated version of the process.  I am NOT saying that there was anything dishonest about the way it was portrayed.  But how things were shot for the documentary, what information was included, how it was included, what was left out, and how it was all edited together, combined with the statements about the decision, were all carefully done to paint a certain picture a certain way.  Including other info, shooting or editing it differently, omitting other info, etc. could paint a very different picture about the very same events.  Again, I am not saying there was anything dishonest or misleading about any of it, and I am not saying #1 and #2 are inconsistent.  But the band is a business, and they are celebrities, and they have a marketing/PR team that think carefully about what is made public and what is not, and it is very interesting to me to think about the whole picture beyond what information was released.

At the same time, these conversations always make me nervous because it is very easy for speculation to go too far.  And some like to imply improper motives.  And even for those who don't, it is easy to put something out there that might make sense from our limited perspective, but is in actually not true at all.  So I am always cautious about not letting these kinds of discussions stray too far.  And let's make sure we all acknowledge that, beyond what has been publicly said about the entire process, all any of us are doing is just speculating and nothing more.

Personally, I have my own "head cannon" of what I think is likely, piecing together everything I know, from the documentary itself, to what the drummers have said (including Peter, when he posted here), to other bits of information that have been revealed through the years, to knowing how marketing works and how video shooting and editing work, to just getting to know the people themselves over the last dozen or so years.  But I probably won't ever chime in and post any of that, both because it's too easy for it to be taken as true insider information AND because it could very well be wrong.  And there's a great deal of it that I still wonder and go back and forth about.  But, again, it's interesting to read others' thoughts.

[MoraWintersoul]

I mean, you could give your head canon and just say "this is 1000% my conjecture and I haven't confirmed any of this with anyone"!

They did need to edit the documentary footage to present the drummers, and it was a high priority that Mike is shown as the best option and the people who weren't options would not be equally prioritized, because otherwise it would not be a good edit. They couldn't use out-of-camera talks and everything they probably did to decide post-audition to do that, the footage they had was of the auditions. And even though they were probably in love with all the world class drummers they invited, if it's just a bunch of great drummers who all have great moments with DT in a random running order, then you're doing a very boring documentary without a storyline.

What people often get wrong is that they assume that their favorite, most perfect, most versatile, best feel, best this-and-that drummer should have automatically "won" the auditions, automatically been asked, and had he said no, that whole thing should have been shown, and it's on to the next one, etc. When they were looking for a very specific vibe and feel. "Dream Theater" is a very specific thing, and while some people consider Marco or Virgil the best prog players today, that maybe doesn't make them as Dream Theater as Mike Mangini is, and then when you get to the unquantifiable things I mentioned like his background, it really was undeniable that he should be the guy. It's like the universe made one more of these Dream Theater guys and gave him a slightly different path but kept him in the back pocket until such a time when the band would need him.

[gzarruk]

Not much to add here, just that I never heard there were 3 drummers who declined to audition. The only one I'd heard of was Bobby Jarzombek and that had to do with scheduling conflicts due to prior commitments and lack of proper learning/practicing time for him, but we only know this because he was asked about it on an interview years later. I don't think the band members have ever mentioned anything related to that.

Also, IIRC, there were also a couple drummers, at least Derek Roddy, who didn't really feel like they were the right fit for the band stylistically, but auditioned anyway. And related to that, I recently watched this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J41m-XiiErk) interview with Aquiles Priester where he got asked about his audition and, just like Scotty said, how it opened up many doors for him to join other bands/projects since. He also mentioned asking them why they called him to audition since he's more of a power metal and not prog metal drummer, but apparently when Angra opened for DT many years ago, MP would just stand and watch him drum through the whole set from behind and that impressed them, so they called him to audition.

[Orbert]

The general public who were not part of the process were given a very specific, carefully curated version of the process.  I am NOT saying that there was anything dishonest about the way it was portrayed.  But how things were shot for the documentary, what information was included, how it was included, what was left out, and how it was all edited together, combined with the statements about the decision, were all carefully done to paint a certain picture a certain way.

This makes perfect sense to me and has always been the only way I've interpreted any of it.  I agree that while it can be fun and interesting to speculate on what happened behind the scenes, it seems really easy to jump to the wrong conclusions based on a sound bite or quote snippet here or there, or assumptions that may or may not be correct or even relevant.  We don't know, and will never know, everything that went on with the auditioning.

[TAC]

But I probably won't ever chime in and post any of that, both because it's too easy for it to be taken as true insider information AND because it could very well be wrong

That's disappointing. I mean, if you post that caveat, then you're really one of the fans talking, which personally, I would appreciate your thoughts.

Honestly, by not posting anything, it's way more suspicious on what you "know".

[hefdaddy42]

Honestly, by not posting anything, it's way more suspicious on what you "know".

Not really.  He explained in great detail exactly why he wouldn't post his opinion.  Nothing suspicious about it.

[TAC]

Not really.  He explained in great detail exactly why he wouldn't post his opinion.  Nothing suspicious about it.

Yeah, sure, fine.

[Stadler]

This discussion is very interesting to me.  On one hand, there is a lot behind the scenes that we will never know, and it is fun to think and speculate about.  I think there are two perspectives:  (1) The reality and actual process of hiring a replacement drummer.  And (2) the marketing/PR view of that process.  The general public who were not part of the process were given a very specific, carefully curated version of the process.  I am NOT saying that there was anything dishonest about the way it was portrayed.  But how things were shot for the documentary, what information was included, how it was included, what was left out, and how it was all edited together, combined with the statements about the decision, were all carefully done to paint a certain picture a certain way.  Including other info, shooting or editing it differently, omitting other info, etc. could paint a very different picture about the very same events.  Again, I am not saying there was anything dishonest or misleading about any of it, and I am not saying #1 and #2 are inconsistent.  But the band is a business, and they are celebrities, and they have a marketing/PR team that think carefully about what is made public and what is not, and it is very interesting to me to think about the whole picture beyond what information was released.

At the same time, these conversations always make me nervous because it is very easy for speculation to go too far.  And some like to imply improper motives.  And even for those who don't, it is easy to put something out there that might make sense from our limited perspective, but is in actually not true at all.  So I am always cautious about not letting these kinds of discussions stray too far.  And let's make sure we all acknowledge that, beyond what has been publicly said about the entire process, all any of us are doing is just speculating and nothing more.

Personally, I have my own "head cannon" of what I think is likely, piecing together everything I know, from the documentary itself, to what the drummers have said (including Peter, when he posted here), to other bits of information that have been revealed through the years, to knowing how marketing works and how video shooting and editing work, to just getting to know the people themselves over the last dozen or so years.  But I probably won't ever chime in and post any of that, both because it's too easy for it to be taken as true insider information AND because it could very well be wrong.  And there's a great deal of it that I still wonder and go back and forth about.  But, again, it's interesting to read others' thoughts.

When you have dinner that could be one of your questions!!!  (I'm alluding to the other thread).

One thing though that we should all be aware of is what Bosk is describing IS the process of "reality TV". There are always choices as to what to show, the narrative is established and the video and quotes are intended to bolster or reinforce that.  Short of actually being there and being involved, there's no way to really know what happened, even with a "documentary".  Just the process of filming it will almost necessarily impact the images and words that you see and hear.

[Herrick]

Just a general question, assuming these were all serious auditions why would anyone travel to another country (or another US State) to audition for a band but plan on declining an offer to join all along? Seems like a waste of time and a dick move if the band wasn't aware they have a guy auditioning who has no intention or desire to be in their band.

[bosk1]

When you have dinner that could be one of your questions!!!  (I'm alluding to the other thread).

One thing though that we should all be aware of is what Bosk is describing IS the process of "reality TV". There are always choices as to what to show, the narrative is established and the video and quotes are intended to bolster or reinforce that.  Short of actually being there and being involved, there's no way to really know what happened, even with a "documentary".  Just the process of filming it will almost necessarily impact the images and words that you see and hear.

Well, sure.  But not just reality TV, but just about anything.  Different editing can create a much different product.  My wife and I have watched a lot of cooking competition shows on Food Network, and they take on a MUCH different feel when you know a bit about what is being edited out, for example.  For instance, Iron Chef gives the impression that when the secret ingredient is revealed, the chefs all just quickly plan the entire menu on the spot and start cooking, and the food is served up minutes later.  In reality, they are given a list of potential secret ingredients days before the show and have time to plan a few menus and plan for their pantries to be stocked up based on those menus beforehand, and then the "reveal" is shot several times to try different takes, and then after the reveal, they have quite a while to sit with their staff and fine-tune the menus before time starts.  But you wouldn't know any of that just from watching how the show is edited and broadcast (unless you really have way too much time on your hands to think about such things and you've scrutinized a LOT of footage to pick up on some subtle tells that some of that is going on).  What is actually shown is a tiny fraction of an event that lasts many hours.  But it is professionally edited to create a narrative with a certain feeling that is appealing to the audience, and different editing of the same competition would produce a much different product and would reveal a lot of things that would give a very different perception of what is happening. 

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

All of this. Apart from that, he appeared to be the only guy who HONESTLY wanted the job.

Im more ways than not DT is the best gig one could get in prog metal. I am sure there were others who honestly wanted the job.

[devieira73]

From the auditions, it seems like Peter Wildoer and Aquiles Priester also really wanted it.

[Max Kuehnau]

Interesting info about it possibly being Simon Phillips or John Macaluso as toro posted.

As for Bobby, he's stated in interviews that he declined the offer, but he was already a member of FW by then. According to Wikipedia, he's been in the band since 2007.

I initially forgot to mention that the masterclass I attended where Simon was asked about this took place in 2018, so it was significantly after the fact as it were, when MM era DT was in full swing already for quite a bit.  Sorry about that, my mistake. (but now you have the full context to hopefully make sense of it)

[Dedalus]

One thing though that we should all be aware of is what Bosk is describing IS the process of "reality TV". There are always choices as to what to show, the narrative is established and the video and quotes are intended to bolster or reinforce that.  Short of actually being there and being involved, there's no way to really know what happened, even with a "documentary".  Just the process of filming it will almost necessarily impact the images and words that you see and hear.

And I must say that it was a very effective reality TV show. A group of friends of mine got really involved in the selection process and watched all the episodes, had their favorites and rooted for them, etc.

This kept them engaged and curious to know the outcome. I remember us discussing this at the time.

Detail: I was the only DT fan. The others would die of boredom if they had to listen to an entire DT album. 

[TAC]

I've always said that the biggest thing the Audition Doc did was to ingratiate Mike Mangini to the Dream Theater fans. I thought it was a very clever way of taking the fans through their thought processes, as opposed to simply putting out a press release and following it up in interviews.

[lightningbolt]

I've always said that the biggest thing the Audition Doc did was to ingratiate Mike Mangini to the Dream Theater fans. I thought it was a very clever way of taking the fans through their thought processes, as opposed to simply putting out a press release and following it up in interviews.

I recall that the first episode made me really like the guy and pull for him to win.  This is kinda dumb, but one of my DT buddies and I are very much into bass fishing.  When Mangini compared how he felt during part of the audition favorably to "Catching a big bass" we were convinced that he should be the guy (in addition to his drumming ability, personality, enthusiasm, and performance with the band). 

So, it definitely worked on us.  I'd never heard of Mangini prior to watching the audition documentary.  Actually, now that I think about it, I'd only heard of one of the people auditioning - Thomas Lang - prior to the documentary.  It was a nice way to introduce him to the fans.

Thinking about this and rewatching part of the audition documentary makes him being out/Portnoy returning bittersweet.  I'm happy Portnoy is back and I think it was the right move, but I still miss Mangini being in there on some level.  So it goes though...

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I recall that the first episode made me really like the guy and pull for him to win.  This is kinda dumb, but one of my DT buddies and I are very much into bass fishing.  When Mangini compared how he felt during part of the audition favorably to "Catching a big bass" we were convinced that he should be the guy (in addition to his drumming ability, personality, enthusiasm, and performance with the band). 

So, it definitely worked on us.  I'd never heard of Mangini prior to watching the audition documentary.  Actually, now that I think about it, I'd only heard of one of the people auditioning - Thomas Lang - prior to the documentary.  It was a nice way to introduce him to the fans.

Thinking about this and rewatching part of the audition documentary makes him being out/Portnoy returning bittersweet.  I'm happy Portnoy is back and I think it was the right move, but I still miss Mangini being in there on some level.  So it goes though...

At the time MM was probably middle to lower end of the spectrum of popularity especially to non drummers. He had been teaching at Berkelee rather than with a well known band or putting out projects. They did a nice job introducing him to the DT fan base. Probably the most well known of the group at the time would have been Virgil, Marco etc

[Stadler]

At the time MM was probably middle to lower end of the spectrum of popularity especially to non drummers. He had been teaching at Berkelee rather than with a well known band or putting out projects. They did a nice job introducing him to the DT fan base. Probably the most well known of the group at the time would have been Virgil, Marco etc

For me, non-drummer, Mangini was the highest profile.  Extreme, James' solo records... I knew all most of them because I'm a music fan, but he was the most well-known by a long shot.

EDIT: I fixed this, because like TAC, I had never heard of Thomas Lang or Derek Roddy.  Wasn't he in the WWF?  Haha.

[TAC]

For me, non-drummer, Mangini was the highest profile.  Extreme, James' solo records... I knew all of them because I'm a music fan, but he was the most well-known by a long shot.

I had never heard of Thomas Lang or Derek Roddy.

[brakkum]

It's crazy to think that the drummer videos came out before the first Aristocrats album even came out, which brought Marco up to another level of recognizability

[MoraWintersoul]

Not much to add here, just that I never heard there were 3 drummers who declined to audition.

It would make sense if it was exactly three more guys, because if all had said yes, then it would have been 10 drummers at the audition, which is a nice round number.

Just a general question, assuming these were all serious auditions why would anyone travel to another country (or another US State) to audition for a band but plan on declining an offer to join all along?

Many reasons! Network, brush up on their audition skills, be known as one of the top drummers that DT invited to audition, even just meet the guys - maybe you don't wanna be at DT's beck and call, but you do want to be the next drummer JR or JP invite to play on their next solo album or be in their next project. It's like going to an interview if a recruiter scouted you, not planning on changing your job but wanting to meet some new people and see what's out there.

[Herrick]

And I must say that it was a very effective reality TV show. A group of friends of mine got really involved in the selection process and watched all the episodes, had their favorites and rooted for them, etc.

This kept them engaged and curious to know the outcome. I remember us discussing this at the time.

Detail: I was the only DT fan. The others would die of boredom if they had to listen to an entire DT album. 

I haven't watched it in a while but wasn't it edited in a way that made it obvious Mangaini was the main mang?

Many reasons! Network, brush up on their audition skills, be known as one of the top drummers that DT invited to audition, even just meet the guys - maybe you don't wanna be at DT's beck and call, but you do want to be the next drummer JR or JP invite to play on their next solo album or be in their next project. It's like going to an interview if a recruiter scouted you, not planning on changing your job but wanting to meet some new people and see what's out there.

Yeah that does make sense but it still seems like an annoying thing to do to an employer/band.

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

I remember being bummed not seeing Bobby Jarzombek in the doc. At the time I thought he would've been the perfect fit.

[Orbert]

Network, brush up on their audition skills, be known as one of the top drummers that DT invited to audition, even just meet the guys - maybe you don't wanna be at DT's beck and call, but you do want to be the next drummer JR or JP invite to play on their next solo album or be in their next project. It's like going to an interview if a recruiter scouted you, not planning on changing your job but wanting to meet some new people and see what's out there.

This all makes good sense, especially since I was still leaning towards it being a waste of everyone's time.  But it turns out that I've done the exact same thing: done a few interviews just to see what's out there.  I once had a company fly me to Tampa for a day of interviews and schmoozing; they even had a driver at the airport holding a sign with my name on it (probably the first and last time that's ever gonna happen)!  Anyway, after a fun day, including a pretty nice lunch, they flew me back, all on their dime.  Their best offer still couldn't beat what I was making at the time, but it was good to know.  I don't feel like I wasted my time, and if it wasted theirs, well, they should've made a better offer.

[pg1067]

For me, non-drummer, Mangini was the highest profile.  Extreme, James' solo records... I knew all most of them because I'm a music fan, but he was the most well-known by a long shot.

EDIT: I fixed this, because like TAC, I had never heard of Thomas Lang or Derek Roddy.  Wasn't he in the WWF?  Haha.

Hard to recall what I knew 13+ years ago, but looking at the list, I'm fairly certain that I'd only heard of Minnemann and maybe Mangini, and I can't remember why I had heard of Minnemann, and I don't think I've ever consumed anything any of those guys had done.