Longevity of Band

[Progmaniac1988]

I think I agree. He's a great player but he'd struggle to learn the material and gel as well as our wizard

Yeah, Mangini for example was not let go for any chemistry or band issues. They just wanted MP back. But unlike Mangini Derek was let go for bigger reasons. His chemistry just wasn't the best with the band. He wasn't the keyboard player meant for DT. I think him and JP had the least chemistry out of all DT's keyboard players. No insult to him tho. I think he's still very good.

[Progmaniac1988]

MM should return at some point yes.

Yeah I know you'd love that lol, but I'd even just be happy if maybe they have him play a few songs with Portnoy and the band. Although I prefer Portnoy I am actually very fond of Mangini, and at some point it would be nice to celebrate him a bit for a special show or something. It'll help his time with the band end on a positive note too.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

Maybe they'll do an anniversary show(s) of The Astonishing and MM can sit in for some/most of it. Sort of like what they did with Charlie Dominici and the WDADU anniversary

[Max Kuehnau]

Yeah, Mangini for example was not let go for any chemistry or band issues. They just wanted MP back. But unlike Mangini Derek was let go for bigger reasons. His chemistry just wasn't the best with the band. He wasn't the keyboard player meant for DT. I think him and JP had the least chemistry out of all DT's keyboard players. No insult to him tho. I think he's still very good.

he is whenever he is doing his own material (and he was as well when he was in Alice Cooper's band, before he joined DT), just never whenever MP is involved in my observation (this is evident in many ways). But yes, I really like his own material (and his work with Alice Cooper)

[Max Kuehnau]

Maybe they'll do an anniversary show(s) of The Astonishing and MM can sit in for some/most of it. Sort of like what they did with Charlie Dominici and the WDADU anniversary

unlikely for that to ever happen, given how divisive it was and stil is

[Max Kuehnau]

Yeah I know you'd love that lol, but I'd even just be happy if maybe they have him play a few songs with Portnoy and the band. Although I prefer Portnoy I am actually very fond of Mangini, and at some point it would be nice to celebrate him a bit for a special show or something. It'll help his time with the band end on a positive note too.

it's not just me who loved MM era DT, quite a few of my mates (who are also musicians) did as well. Sadly, most couldn't appreciate him (even musicians, which is odd to me in some ways)

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Maybe they'll do an anniversary show(s) of The Astonishing and MM can sit in for some/most of it. Sort of like what they did with Charlie Dominici and the WDADU anniversary

If they're going to bring Mangini on for a song or whatever, which isn't happening any time soon, then it's probably not going to be for the Astonishing for a variety of reasons.

[KevShmev]

Not that I think it will happen, but I'd be surprised if Mangini would have any interest in working again with the band in any capacity (whether it be a one-off or a full time return).  He always talked in a way that made me think he always viewed himself as a bit of an outsider, and I doubt he'd be in any hurry to want to work with them again, even if it was years down the line after the sting of his dismissal has greatly diminished.  If James decided to do another solo album and wanted Mangini to drum on it, I could see him doing that, because they had a working relationship that pre-dated his tenure in Dream Theater, but working with Dream Theater the band again?  I don't see it.

[Max Kuehnau]

yeah me neither, sadly (then again, if I were in his position, I clearly wouldn't want to myself btw. Ever.)

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

after the sting of his dismissal

Has it been confirmed he was fired? I didn't think that was the case 

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Has it been confirmed he was fired? I didn't think that was the case 

The band intentionally replaced both Derek and Mangini. Not sure what the alternative version of the story is?

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

The band intentionally replaced both Derek and Mangini. Not sure what the alternative version of the story is?

I don't think you need to know exactly what happened in order to say it wasn't confirmed (yet?) that he was fired

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I don't think you need to know exactly what happened in order to say it wasn't confirmed (yet?) that he was fired

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at. What's your larger point?

[gzarruk]

I don't think you need to know exactly what happened in order to say it wasn't confirmed (yet?) that he was fired

This was discussed here a lot when the change happened. The consensus is that he was "let go" and not "fired", but I don't think we should bring that discussion back.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I'm honestly not even sure what he's trying to do with that comment at this stage.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at. What's your larger point?

I don't know that there is any sting, is my point. If that is a possible reality here, then it would make sense that he would perform with DT if such an occasion arose. That's all!

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I don't know that there is any sting, is my point. If that is a possible reality here, then it would make sense that he would perform with DT if such an occasion arose. That's all!

I don't know if there is sting either.

And to answer your question (even though I think you know what the answer is): he was replaced. The forum has been warned about using the word 'fired' to describe the Decision because the word at times can carry a negative connotation - eg- performance related. Indeed my good forum user name to this day carries the stain of deep stigmatization for having used the F word to initially describe the situation though I've made clear time and time again I don't think it had anything to do with performance. My understanding is that by prohibiting the word we are just trying to make certain no one gets that impression, because that in fact is not what happened.

Actually, as I type this I'm reminded that some forum users continue to inject speculation that it MIGHT BE performance related ('we don't know. We don't' in direct response to my statement taking that possibility off the table). That seems to me to violate the spirit of a prohibition on the word 'fired' but I digress.

Anywho hope that clears it up!

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

So do you agree Mango would play with the boys again?   

[Progmaniac1988]

it's not just me who loved MM era DT, quite a few of my mates (who are also musicians) did as well. Sadly, most couldn't appreciate him (even musicians, which is odd to me in some ways)

Yeah of course, I know a couple buddies that prefer MM too. He's a phenomenal musician so I can fault you guys there. All preference, I respect both the MP and MM camp

Maybe they'll do an anniversary show(s) of The Astonishing and MM can sit in for some/most of it. Sort of like what they did with Charlie Dominici and the WDADU anniversary

That would be nice, maybe the 15th anniversary of ADTOE he can play a song with them?

[Progmaniac1988]

Btw, ive fired employees in the past. I used the word "we're letting you go" to soften the blow when it was done. Fact is tho, when all is said I fired them. I don't really see how nit picking "let go" or "fired" really matters. Fact is DT chose to no longer have them in the band.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

15th anniversary of ADTOE

DAMN, I'M OLD!!!

[Progmaniac1988]

DAMN, I'M OLD!!!

I feel you brother! lol the fact that we're all probably going to DT's 40th anniversary is 🤯, I was at the 20th anniversary 20 years ago! Crazy!

[skydivingninja]

If they replace James I'm sure they could go longer. I think if he pulled an Angela Gossow and bowed out gracefully and introduced a successor that would be a good move.

My take is once JP says he's done, the band is done. In a way that Chris Squire was a foundational member of Yes that made the albums without Jon Anderson easier to listen to, I think JP is the same kind of glue. I would have added MP to that disclaimer had he been part of the band the whole time but it sounds like he has way less of a role than he used to.

[Max Kuehnau]

I think what you mentioned is more likely to apply to Jordan (since he is the oldest member of the band, he will turn 68 in a little more than three weeks after all), not nessecarily John or JM.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

If they replace James I'm sure they could go longer. I think if he pulled an Angela Gossow and bowed out gracefully and introduced a successor that would be a good move.

My take is once JP says he's done, the band is done. In a way that Chris Squire was a foundational member of Yes that made the albums without Jon Anderson easier to listen to, I think JP is the same kind of glue. I would have added MP to that disclaimer had he been part of the band the whole time but it sounds like he has way less of a role than he used to.

You're right on JP. It's such a guitar driven band that to remove JP from the equation would fundamentally change the band's sound in a way that would divorce it from the name Dream Theater. His music contributions and specifically JP as beloved member of the band and guitar community wouldn't be received well by the fans.

And JLB isn't going anywhere. If it was going to happen it would have already.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

And JLB isn't going anywhere. If it was going to happen it would have already.

I agree, and feel confident that the upcoming tour is going to put these rumors and accusations that he has lost his touch around him to bed once and for all. Long live James LaBrie! 

[Setlist Scotty]

Yeah, Mangini for example was not let go for any chemistry or band issues. They just wanted MP back. But unlike Mangini Derek was let go for bigger reasons. His chemistry just wasn't the best with the band. He wasn't the keyboard player meant for DT. I think him and JP had the least chemistry out of all DT's keyboard players. No insult to him tho. I think he's still very good.

What other bigger reasons? Just as with bringing MP back, they wanted JR just as they had in 1994. When it became apparent that they had such great chemistry with him during the LTE albums and he was now agreeable to joining the band, that's what sealed the deal. Had that not happened, Derek would have continued in the band. It's as simple as that.

[Skeever]

This was discussed here a lot when the change happened. The consensus is that he was "let go" and not "fired", but I don't think we should bring that discussion back.

I wouldn't say this was the consensus at all.

[Uncle Rico]

Longevity? I think this 40th anniversary tour should honestly be their farewell tour. They've been repeating themselves over and over since SC, and haven't covered any new ground stylistically, compositionally, creatively, however you want to phrase it. They've been scraping the bottom of the creativity barrel for over a decade now; they're not really a progressive band anymore, just a recycling band.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

What other bigger reasons? Just as with bringing MP back, they wanted JR just as they had in 1994. When it became apparent that they had such great chemistry with him during the LTE albums and he was now agreeable to joining the band, that's what sealed the deal. Had that not happened, Derek would have continued in the band. It's as simple as that.

From what was been said thus far there is no indication that part of Mangini's replacement was due to lack of chemistry or desire for even better chemistry.

When Mangini joined the band JP gave an interview in which he said it felt like he'd been playing with him for 20 years. I'm not seeing anything pointing in that direction like it was with Derek apparently.

[Schurftkut]

JR did mention in a podcast that he's way more comfortable with the odd timesignatures they were using before MM. Something like that a 7/8 or 9/8 still feels natural for him, but the 17/16 stuff MM came up with just isn't grooving in his mind.

[Max Kuehnau]

JR did mention in a podcast that he's way more comfortable with the odd timesignatures they were using before MM. Something like that a 7/8 or 9/8 still feels natural for him, but the 17/16 stuff MM came up with just isn't grooving in his mind.

certainly harder to make these work, but it's not impossible. MM knows how to do it (as do Phil and Gavin and Vinnie Colaiuta to name some others). But yes I can see why these may be uncomfortable to some people (and including polys). They aren't to me, but I can see that.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

JR did mention in a podcast that he's way more comfortable with the odd timesignatures they were using before MM. Something like that a 7/8 or 9/8 still feels natural for him, but the 17/16 stuff MM came up with just isn't grooving in his mind.

I would love to hear that for myself to understand the context and tone of his statement. Do you remember which podcast?

That would be really disheartening if part of all this was that MM wrecked the Great John Petrucci's or Jordan Rudess' brain too much with unconventional time signatures (though I'm not sure that's really it because if this is referring to PBD, it's something they heard MM play at soundcheck and then presumably wanted to use since it went on the record).

[gzarruk]

A section of Home also has the same time signature as PBD.

[Schurftkut]

I would love to hear that for myself to understand the context and tone of his statement. Do you remember which podcast?

i believe it was a patreonvideo he posted on his youtubechannel around the time of the announcement that MP was returning