Is DT missing an opportunity to cash in....

[Setlist Scotty]

Stuff like that is why I hope Petrucci doesn't concede the set list stuff back totally to Portnoy.  Portnoy overthinks things way too much IMO and gets way too caught up in checking songs off bucket lists (playing You Not Me/You Or Me just so they can say they played it, when it is quite obviously one of their least popular songs ever, if not THE least popular DT song ever, would be the biggest WTF ever), and that sometimes causes those kinds of WTF decisions, like the underwhelming Score set list, which is not a good reflection of their 20 years at their 20th anniversary show.

I get your viewpoint, but disagree completely as if that would surprise you!! 

Don't forget that this is one of the things that helped make DT especially special. Honestly, had MP not set that precedent while he was in the band initially, I could imagine JP including at least 3 or 4 of the same songs in every show after MP left. Thankfully that wasn't the case.

I agree that the Score setlist is not the greatest – it certainly not my favorite setlist by any stretch of the imagination, but I'd much rather have an almost completely different set of songs on each live release rather than at least 1/3 of it being the same tired, overplayed songs (hello Iron Maiden). Not only that, it did what it was supposed to do by featuring a collection of songs that covered their entire catalog at that time in chronological order. Sure there could've been a few different song selections here and there (probably the biggest is having PA instead of IWBY given PA's popularity), but there was plenty of fan favorites and tracks that average joe fans could enjoy that were also included. So in the end, I think it works just fine. I've seen posts by plenty of fans that say Score is their favorite live release, so it at least hit the sweet spot for them. And again, MP has the smarts to realize that such songs are for the diehards, so if the setlists are back to rotating again, such a song as YoM (or even YNM) will probably only appear at a handful of shows, and within setlists that have plenty of variety for the rest of the audience to be thrilled with.

Yeah, I can see Petrucci having a good laugh and saying, "really, Mike?"  I have to think that Petrucci would veto that idea pretty quickly.

To some extent, I would imagine it depends on who was the one to broach the topic of MP's return first. If it was JP, then MP would have the upper hand, and if it was MP, then JP would have the upper hand.

While I don't expect everything to return to what it was exactly before MP split, I would imagine that it's probably closer to what it was with MP rather than what it was with MM.

I commented that the entire band seemed detached at the Dreamsonic show in Boston. I do not believe that Mangini knew during the tour. At All. But I also believe that he was aware of the fact that MP had been making inroads, and that any tour could be his last.

I do believe that JP was likely aware of what was going to happen. And I know it's hard to tell with JM, but something was off with him in Boston. I felt it.

Interesting. When you say you observed detachment, was that strictly from the audience, or did you happen to have M&G or aftershow passes and the ability to interact with any of the guys?

Not trying to reopen the "did he leave vs was let go" debate again, my point is that MM was actively planning to go back to the studio with the band at some point (taken from his words, not mine), but apparently they already made their mind they wanted MP back. MP was already booked with tour dates for the rest of the year so obviously they weren't entering the studio this year. They just couldn't wait forever without telling the guy, who just happened to be about to release a solo album and was about to do a lot of interviews and stuff like that and had already publicly talked about going back to the studio with them "soon".

That kinda goes along with my comment that they made the announcement as a courtesy for MM, which I do think is a possibility.

[Mosh]

The old story goes that MP and JP broached the topic of JR joining Dream Theater hypothetically while working on an LTE album. I wouldn't be surprised if history repeated itself a bit and it was at least informally discussed during the sessions for that album. I don't think a decision was made though and it is even possible that they made the final call late in the game, possibly even after the Summer tour ended. A couple things that stick out to me:

1: The fact that there was even a DreamSonic tour to begin with. I kinda doubt that they would put together a brand new touring festival meant to be ongoing if there was even a remote possibility of MP rejoining. They could just bring back Prog Nation or wait to come up with something with MP involved and have the inaugural tour be an MP reunion tour.

2: To that end, if they really knew they were going to get back together with Portnoy, I feel like they would have gone for a different approach to that final tour. It just felt so DT through the motions and it didn't seem like they were having a great time on stage or in interviews around the tour. You would think that if they knew MM would be departing at the end of the tour, they would've put together something more special for Mangini and maybe even enjoyed it more. It just leads me to believe that the decision to bring MP back was at least partially motivated by a tour that maybe didn't go so well.

So it's possible MM didn't really know until later, but it could have also been an ongoing discussion within the band where a final decision was reached more recently. I'm sure the thought of an MP reunion crossed Mangini's mind when Portnoy started showing up to shows and recording with JP/JR again.

[HOF]

The first half of Score is awesome. Has a a really great energy from song to song. The second part with the orchestra didn't work so well IMO.

[Stadler]

But yeah, I'm pretty sure MM knew about it at least a few weeks before the announcement was made. All you need to see is Rodrigo's interview with MM and how he choked up when the topic of DT was brought up.

The lawyers on DTF would like to have you believe he was burping.

It is my belief that he was told within a day or days of Rodrigo's interview. That was 30 days give or take from the announcement.

Not "the lawyers", ME. I said that, and I stand behind it.  Before I knew he was leaving, and watched that interview, "crying"/"choked up" never even crossed my mind.   My reaction was my reaction, and I don't think I should change it to fit a narrative that I don't even know is true.  I don't know what was in his mind at that moment; maybe it will come out that he was choking back tears; so be it.  But I too saw a flat, maybe not "lifeless", but certainly detached presence on stage in Bridgeport on the Dreamsonic tour.  At the time, it might have been because the venue was not even half full, but if in fact he did know the writing was on the wall, it kind of undermines the idea that he was so moved he was in tears at the mention of his - then - old band in an interview months later.

I don't know the level of involvement that Mangini had in things like publishing and the corporation and all, but knowing how corporate formalities move, I would say that even thirty days is a "rush" in terms of getting paperwork in place.  Granted you can announce before all the documents are dry, but still.  SOMEONE - maybe it wasn't Mike M. - knew more than 30 days before the announcement.

[Stadler]

The TII guys also commented that they noticed MM didn't seem to be his usual jovial self when they saw him on the DreamSonic tour. I don't want to misquote them, but IIRC, it seemed like he was either somewhat detached from everything and/or was all (or at least mostly) business unlike at previous shows. So they hypothesized that perhaps MM even knew as far back as during that tour.

I commented that the entire band seemed detached at the Dreamsonic show in Boston. I do not believe that Mangini knew during the tour. At All. But I also believe that he was aware of the fact that MP had been making inroads, and that any tour could be his last.

I do believe that JP was likely aware of what was going to happen. And I know it's hard to tell with JM, but something was off with him in Boston. I felt it.

I felt this vibe in Bridgeport as well, which was, what?  Two nights before?  It was very obvious that SOMETHING wasn't sitting well; at the time I thought it was the attendance (to say the Bridgeport show was poorly attended was being kind).

[Stadler]

To some extent, I would imagine it depends on who was the one to broach the topic of MP's return first. If it was JP, then MP would have the upper hand, and if it was MP, then JP would have the upper hand.

While I don't expect everything to return to what it was exactly before MP split, I would imagine that it's probably closer to what it was with MP rather than what it was with MM.

What if it was neither?  I have no more idea than anyone else as to what went down, but if you're going to put pieces together, one cannot ignore that there was an entire tour with Mike P., John P., AND THE WIVES on the road, without the kids.      It would be virtually impossible that that didn't have some influence on what later went down. 

I commented that the entire band seemed detached at the Dreamsonic show in Boston. I do not believe that Mangini knew during the tour. At All. But I also believe that he was aware of the fact that MP had been making inroads, and that any tour could be his last.

I do believe that JP was likely aware of what was going to happen. And I know it's hard to tell with JM, but something was off with him in Boston. I felt it.

Interesting. When you say you observed detachment, was that strictly from the audience, or did you happen to have M&G or aftershow passes and the ability to interact with any of the guys?

I'm not TAC, but for me - and I experienced the same thing - it was solely from the fourth row. 

[hefdaddy42]

I obviously don't know when the decision was reached, or when MM was informed, but my guess on why the announcement was made when it was, and it is ONLY a guess, is that they were trying to get in front of any leaks, known or unknown.  It was starting to get out, if for no other reason MP was telling his bandmates in his current projects, and it may have been a concern that eventually, one of them would tell someone who couldn't keep their mouth shut, so we better just announce it now, even though it's a little awkward.

Again, just a guess.

[bosk1]

I commented that the entire band seemed detached at the Dreamsonic show in Boston. I do not believe that Mangini knew during the tour. At All. But I also believe that he was aware of the fact that MP had been making inroads, and that any tour could be his last.

I do believe that JP was likely aware of what was going to happen. And I know it's hard to tell with JM, but something was off with him in Boston. I felt it.

Interesting. When you say you observed detachment, was that strictly from the audience, or did you happen to have M&G or aftershow passes and the ability to interact with any of the guys?

Can't speak for TAC, but having seen a show pretty late on that tour, and having been backstage during the after show meet and greet, I didn't see anything from anyone that looked or felt detached.  I'm not discounting what TAC felt, but just saying I didn't get that vibe at all from the show or direct interactions in San Jose.  Obviously, there could be a lot of reasons for that.

[hefdaddy42]

Maybe they just had gas.

[bosk1]

They did, but that's beside the point.

[MirrorMask]

I see no logical sense in the timing for the announcement either, but I can see why it happened this way.

If you are like me and have been following MM closely for the last decade, you'll know he usually replies to comments on social media (facebook and instagram mostly). The last few months after the tour ended and before the announcement he posted and replied to some fans explicitly talking about entering the studio with DT sometime later in the year. I even shared one of those posts on the other thread but that was still talked down as "he said he'd do X thing BEFORE going to back with DT, not that he WOULD be back". Oh well.

Not trying to reopen the "did he leave vs was let go" debate again, my point is that MM was actively planning to go back to the studio with the band at some point (taken from his words, not mine), but apparently they already made their mind they wanted MP back. MP was already booked with tour dates for the rest of the year so obviously they weren't entering the studio this year. They just couldn't wait forever without telling the guy, who just happened to be about to release a solo album and was about to do a lot of interviews and stuff like that and had already publicly talked about going back to the studio with them "soon".

I obviously don't know when the decision was reached, or when MM was informed, but my guess on why the announcement was made when it was, and it is ONLY a guess, is that they were trying to get in front of any leaks, known or unknown.  It was starting to get out, if for no other reason MP was telling his bandmates in his current projects, and it may have been a concern that eventually, one of them would tell someone who couldn't keep their mouth shut, so we better just announce it now, even though it's a little awkward.

Again, just a guess.

With the information we have now, a combination of these seems the most likely and realistic scenario.

[Setlist Scotty]

To some extent, I would imagine it depends on who was the one to broach the topic of MP's return first. If it was JP, then MP would have the upper hand, and if it was MP, then JP would have the upper hand.

While I don't expect everything to return to what it was exactly before MP split, I would imagine that it's probably closer to what it was with MP rather than what it was with MM.

What if it was neither?  I have no more idea than anyone else as to what went down, but if you're going to put pieces together, one cannot ignore that there was an entire tour with Mike P., John P., AND THE WIVES on the road, without the kids.      It would be virtually impossible that that didn't have some influence on what later went down. 

Now you've got my curiosity: what other possibility are you suggesting besides the wives bringing it up or is that the only one you can think of?

[The Great Ape]

I obviously don't know when the decision was reached, or when MM was informed, but my guess on why the announcement was made when it was, and it is ONLY a guess, is that they were trying to get in front of any leaks, known or unknown.  It was starting to get out, if for no other reason MP was telling his bandmates in his current projects, and it may have been a concern that eventually, one of them would tell someone who couldn't keep their mouth shut, so we better just announce it now, even though it's a little awkward.

Again, just a guess.

I think this is exactly what happened Hefdaddy.
There sphere of people in-the-know was getting larger and larger every day.
Plus, you have the Mike Portnoy factor, who knows what he will talk about or hint at with his many bandmates and social media followers.

It was time to let the cat out of the bag, before the cat decided to let itself go outside.

[cramx3]

....by not announcing a reunion tour with MP BEFORE making a new album? I just think a reunion tour would create a lot of buzz and afterwards, REALLY create excitement for a new album. Thoughts?

I'd be interested, but I can't help but think, if they did tour and say JLB was as bad as the Dreamsonic tour, would it actually kill all that buzz from MP rejoining? I think it's entirely possible sadly.

[Dedalus]

For me, the impression that they had to rush through the announcement is that it was all done semi-professionally (with that photo pasted beautifully  ). And even more weird: they announced, some comments on some members' private social media and that's it. It's MP's return to DT! It has a huge potential to be a commercial success and they advertise it in a blasé way.

The return of LTE was much more creative/well done.

[TAC]

I commented that the entire band seemed detached at the Dreamsonic show in Boston. I do not believe that Mangini knew during the tour. At All. But I also believe that he was aware of the fact that MP had been making inroads, and that any tour could be his last.

I do believe that JP was likely aware of what was going to happen. And I know it's hard to tell with JM, but something was off with him in Boston. I felt it.

Interesting. When you say you observed detachment, was that strictly from the audience, or did you happen to have M&G or aftershow passes and the ability to interact with any of the guys?

Can't speak for TAC, but having seen a show pretty late on that tour, and having been backstage during the after show meet and greet, I didn't see anything from anyone that looked or felt detached.  I'm not discounting what TAC felt, but just saying I didn't get that vibe at all from the show or direct interactions in San Jose.  Obviously, there could be a lot of reasons for that.

So, I have to walk back this comment. I reread what I posted after the Boston show, and actually lauded their engagement, except for JM. So scratch that. 


I don't believe anyone in the band, except perhaps JP knew what was coming. And that's not to say that JP had made THE decision yet. I'd honestly be surprised if he dared to broach it with anyone while on tour.

[Dream Team]

I don't think I've seen this suggested, but what if they went in and banged out a CD of 8 classic prog and metal covers and toured that with some DT classics for 6 weeks; working on new music during sound checks and stuff?

La Villa Strangiatto
a Yes epic
a Genesis epic
a Metallica song like Ktulu or Frayed Ends of Sanity
a Megadeth classic like Holy Wars or Hangar 18 or Tornado of Souls
a Sabbath classic
a Maiden tune with doable vocals like Revelations or Alexander the Great or Paschendale
whatever else

I'd go to that freakin show.

[hefdaddy42]

I don't think I've seen this suggested, but what if they went in and banged out a CD of 8 classic prog and metal covers and toured that with some DT classics for 6 weeks; working on new music during sound checks and stuff?

La Villa Strangiatto
a Yes epic
a Genesis epic
a Metallica song like Ktulu or Frayed Ends of Sanity
a Megadeth classic like Holy Wars or Hangar 18 or Tornado of Souls
a Sabbath classic
a Maiden tune with doable vocals like Revelations or Alexander the Great or Paschendale
whatever else

I'd go to that freakin show.

I hate that idea.

I don't want these guys to get back together all this time letter and do covers.  WTF

[DragonAttack]

Ditto.

They did 'Xanudu' with Mangini.

And they 'only' have 15 studio albums to choose songs from, so...no need to borrow from others.

[cramx3]

I'd say doing cover songs is pretty low on the list of things DT should do now that MP is back... but if they made a full album and had a bonus disc of covers like BC&SL, I'd be happy with that.  DT has historically, to me, done really good cover songs so generally, I'm cool with them doing more.  It's just not what I would be asking for at this time.

[Stadler]

To some extent, I would imagine it depends on who was the one to broach the topic of MP's return first. If it was JP, then MP would have the upper hand, and if it was MP, then JP would have the upper hand.

While I don't expect everything to return to what it was exactly before MP split, I would imagine that it's probably closer to what it was with MP rather than what it was with MM.

What if it was neither?  I have no more idea than anyone else as to what went down, but if you're going to put pieces together, one cannot ignore that there was an entire tour with Mike P., John P., AND THE WIVES on the road, without the kids.      It would be virtually impossible that that didn't have some influence on what later went down. 

Now you've got my curiosity: what other possibility are you suggesting besides the wives bringing it up or is that the only one you can think of?

Well, I don't want to imply that all options are equal, because they're not, but in theory it could have come from any direction.  One of the other band members might have floated the idea, for any one (or more) of several possible reasons.   I still think the statements are open enough that it still possibly (even if not probably) includes Mike.   I've already said that in my useless, unfounded, unsupported opinion, the families weighed heavily in this. 

[bosk1]

I don't believe anyone in the band, except perhaps JP knew what was coming. And that's not to say that JP had made THE decision yet. I'd honestly be surprised if he dared to broach it with anyone while on tour.

I'm speculating, but I think most or all of them already knew at some point during the tour.  It may not have been finalized in terms of signing documents, etc., but I think it is likely that the plan was in place and they knew about it.

[TAC]

I don't believe anyone in the band, except perhaps JP knew what was coming. And that's not to say that JP had made THE decision yet. I'd honestly be surprised if he dared to broach it with anyone while on tour.

I'm speculating, but I think most or all of them already knew at some point during the tour.  It may not have been finalized in terms of signing documents, etc., but I think it is likely that the plan was in place and they knew about it.

This is interesting comment coming from you. I suppose you're probably right, as this seems to have come together fairly quickly after the tour. There's still part of me that has a hard time thinking the band knew Mangini's fate while still touring with him. I mean, I assume JP and Frank Soloman knew.

[bosk1]

JP, despite being very amicable and personable, has a VERY strong personality, so I get thinking that he maybe "knew" before the other band members.  But even though I think he is comfortable pushing his ideas or making executive decisions for the band, I just don't see him making this decision without first having lots of discussions with the other members and making sure there was buy-in from everybody.  It's just too big a decision with too much potential downside if not everyone was onboard with it.  I have a hard time thinking he would have made up his own mind before talking to them just based on what I've observed about all the personalities involved. 

Again, I'm speculating and don't have any specific inside knowledge to back that up.  But just from my interactions with them, that's what my gut tells me is more likely.  I'd be interested to know whether Scotty agrees or disagrees with that take.

[cramx3]

If they knew before the last show on Dreamsonic, that kind of stinks that they weren't able to celebrate that moment.  I mentioned it in one of the other threads, but MM's last song in DT he actually shared the drum with Darby Todd.  I kind of doubt that's what the band does if they know it's the end, but I get the reasons to hide it or possibly that the band knew besides MM.  I'm not holding that against the band (if it's even how it happened, who knows) but just noting it, because it stinks for MM and I hope he gets another shot to have a proper closing moment with the band.

[Samsara]

These things take planning. My complete guess is that they (JP, JM, JLB, JR) all met and decided quite a while back what they were going to do. "Getting MP back" likely required a lot of behind the scenes work. I can't imagine MP rejoining Dream Theater as an employee. When he left the first time, it likely meant he was separated from the band's corporate structure, meaning he was likely paid a significant amount of money (his ownership stake), and if so, I'd imagine the band re-drew the corporate charter to define who the "owners" of Dream Theater were. I am GUESSING that is the major four, and MM was an employee.

Either way, to bring MP back, specifically, to bring him back in an ownership role (assuming the percentage he owned when he left), requires more than a simple "we want you back in, MP, are you in?" "Yes!" scenario. It probably took months of preparation.

In a nutshell, it's my belief that everyone except MM knew what was going on for quite a bit of time, and MM was informed once they all had agreed and things were signed.

All guesswork, but the business end of things takes a lot of time. That much is fact.

p.s. I think DT will probably tour this summer. Escape from the Studio 2024.

[MirrorMask]

The longer they were planning it, the worse they'll look in front of Mangini, so I don't think they'll ever give us a proper timeline of how it came to be. Unless it was decided after the Dreamsonic tour, like seriously decided and considered, I don't expect them to admit they were in serious talks for long.

What Samsara posted is reasonable, but I think the talks were potentially short; this is not the Jordan Rudess situation, where they had to "woo" him and he had to join a band he didn't know (besides that one gig in 1994) and that meant a significant carrer change. MP wanted to be back. JP obviously wanted him to return and so JR. Once MP was in good terms with Myung and especially LaBrie how long the talks could be? I can't imagine them spending months and months trying to agree on stuff like rotating setlists and the click track. I can imagine them having a serious talk about the contractual side of things and the shared ownership of the band however.

[Mosh]

Obviously there's a lot we don't know and a lot we'll never know, but there are plenty of factors to consider. A lot of this speculation is assuming that everybody was immediately on board with the reunion. Maybe it was floated once before and JLB said no initially. I reckon neither MP nor MM was formally involved in these discussions until the other four members were unanimous in what they wanted. Maybe this was an ongoing discussion with Mangini that lasted who knows how long. I still think it's entirely possible that they were transparent with Mangini throughout this process and wanted to handle this in a way that was respectful to him.

If they knew before the last show on Dreamsonic, that kind of stinks that they weren't able to celebrate that moment.  I mentioned it in one of the other threads, but MM's last song in DT he actually shared the drum with Darby Todd.  I kind of doubt that's what the band does if they know it's the end, but I get the reasons to hide it or possibly that the band knew besides MM.  I'm not holding that against the band (if it's even how it happened, who knows) but just noting it, because it stinks for MM and I hope he gets another shot to have a proper closing moment with the band.

I also think this is really telling. I have a hard time believing the last show with Mangini would have gone down the way it did if everybody knew it was actually the last show. I'm sure the possibility was on everybody's minds, but I have a hard time believing it was a sure thing.

[bosk1]

If they knew before the last show on Dreamsonic, that kind of stinks that they weren't able to celebrate that moment.  I mentioned it in one of the other threads, but MM's last song in DT he actually shared the drum with Darby Todd.  I kind of doubt that's what the band does if they know it's the end, but I get the reasons to hide it or possibly that the band knew besides MM.  I'm not holding that against the band (if it's even how it happened, who knows) but just noting it, because it stinks for MM and I hope he gets another shot to have a proper closing moment with the band.

I also think this is really telling. I have a hard time believing the last show with Mangini would have gone down the way it did if everybody knew it was actually the last show. I'm sure the possibility was on everybody's minds, but I have a hard time believing it was a sure thing.

I disagree.  I don't think those two things are mutually exclusive at all.  Bands quite often don't end up doing something "special" for an intended last show with a member when that member is going to depart and the band is going to continue.  In fact, I struggle to think of any situations where something like that happened.  As fans, we might wish for that to have been the case since we all like Mangini and he did such a great job in DT these past 13 years.  But that isn't usually how it happens.  They had been doing the joint encore thing throughout the entire DreamSonic tour, so I see no reason they would have altered that even if they knew that the last show was going to be Mangini's last.  Honestly, I think everybody involved, including Mangini, felt that getting to share the stage to do those "finale" performances at the end of each night was itself incredibly special and memorable.

[cramx3]

If they knew before the last show on Dreamsonic, that kind of stinks that they weren't able to celebrate that moment.  I mentioned it in one of the other threads, but MM's last song in DT he actually shared the drum with Darby Todd.  I kind of doubt that's what the band does if they know it's the end, but I get the reasons to hide it or possibly that the band knew besides MM.  I'm not holding that against the band (if it's even how it happened, who knows) but just noting it, because it stinks for MM and I hope he gets another shot to have a proper closing moment with the band.

I also think this is really telling. I have a hard time believing the last show with Mangini would have gone down the way it did if everybody knew it was actually the last show. I'm sure the possibility was on everybody's minds, but I have a hard time believing it was a sure thing.

I wasn't trying to say this was proof the band didn't know at the time, more so that it just was unfortunate for MM, IMO.

[TAC]

These things take planning. My complete guess is that they (JP, JM, JLB, JR) all met and decided quite a while back what they were going to do. "Getting MP back" likely required a lot of behind the scenes work. I can't imagine MP rejoining Dream Theater as an employee. When he left the first time, it likely meant he was separated from the band's corporate structure, meaning he was likely paid a significant amount of money (his ownership stake), and if so, I'd imagine the band re-drew the corporate charter to define who the "owners" of Dream Theater were. I am GUESSING that is the major four, and MM was an employee.

Either way, to bring MP back, specifically, to bring him back in an ownership role (assuming the percentage he owned when he left), requires more than a simple "we want you back in, MP, are you in?" "Yes!" scenario. It probably took months of preparation.

In a nutshell, it's my belief that everyone except MM knew what was going on for quite a bit of time, and MM was informed once they all had agreed and things were signed.

All guesswork, but the business end of things takes a lot of time. That much is fact.

Yeah, Brian, true.

[Stadler]

The longer they were planning it, the worse they'll look in front of Mangini, so I don't think they'll ever give us a proper timeline of how it came to be. Unless it was decided after the Dreamsonic tour, like seriously decided and considered, I don't expect them to admit they were in serious talks for long.

What Samsara posted is reasonable, but I think the talks were potentially short; this is not the Jordan Rudess situation, where they had to "woo" him and he had to join a band he didn't know (besides that one gig in 1994) and that meant a significant carrer change. MP wanted to be back. JP obviously wanted him to return and so JR. Once MP was in good terms with Myung and especially LaBrie how long the talks could be? I can't imagine them spending months and months trying to agree on stuff like rotating setlists and the click track. I can imagine them having a serious talk about the contractual side of things and the shared ownership of the band however.

You'd be surprised.   I think that's what Samsara is saying.   I made this point early on after the announcement.  These documents are not scribbled on a napkin.  They have to be negotiated between at least four other parties and their counsel, and maybe with those other entities that do business with the corporate entity.   We did a deal to buy a company and we had by agreement TWO YEARS to revise all the corporate docs pertaining to the entities (I think it was seven entities?) and we didn't hit the deadline on all of them. 

[Mosh]

If they knew before the last show on Dreamsonic, that kind of stinks that they weren't able to celebrate that moment.  I mentioned it in one of the other threads, but MM's last song in DT he actually shared the drum with Darby Todd.  I kind of doubt that's what the band does if they know it's the end, but I get the reasons to hide it or possibly that the band knew besides MM.  I'm not holding that against the band (if it's even how it happened, who knows) but just noting it, because it stinks for MM and I hope he gets another shot to have a proper closing moment with the band.

I also think this is really telling. I have a hard time believing the last show with Mangini would have gone down the way it did if everybody knew it was actually the last show. I'm sure the possibility was on everybody's minds, but I have a hard time believing it was a sure thing.

I disagree.  I don't think those two things are mutually exclusive at all.  Bands quite often don't end up doing something "special" for an intended last show with a member when that member is going to depart and the band is going to continue.  In fact, I struggle to think of any situations where something like that happened.  As fans, we might wish for that to have been the case since we all like Mangini and he did such a great job in DT these past 13 years.  But that isn't usually how it happens.  They had been doing the joint encore thing throughout the entire DreamSonic tour, so I see no reason they would have altered that even if they knew that the last show was going to be Mangini's last.  Honestly, I think everybody involved, including Mangini, felt that getting to share the stage to do those "finale" performances at the end of each night was itself incredibly special and memorable.

No I get that, I see your point though that those encore performances were really special. I guess if they had known that Mangini would be leaving at the end of the tour, I would have liked the DreamSonic shows to be more of a celebration of the Mangini era as a whole instead of an extension of the View tour. Maybe instead of three View songs they play one song from View plus one song each from any other two Mangini era albums. Then maybe a big Mangini epic instead of Count of Tuscany. I get that it is unreasonable expectations but it is definitely a wish from a fan as you say. There is still a small part of me that feels that maybe they would have done things a bit differently, but I get what you're saying.

But on the other side of things, I agree with the sentiment that this could have been in the works for a very long time, potentially even multiple years. So I definitely have some contradictory views on this one, although I really doubt we're going to get the full story any time soon (if ever).

[TAC]

The longer they were planning it, the worse they'll look in front of Mangini, so I don't think they'll ever give us a proper timeline of how it came to be. Unless it was decided after the Dreamsonic tour, like seriously decided and considered, I don't expect them to admit they were in serious talks for long.

I think Mike knew that MP was knocking on the door for a number of years. I'm not sure how seriously in jeopardy his spot in the band really was though.



I was watching the LA show from this past summer on youtube, and MM was having the time of his life. I don't think he was expecting this. Separate from whatever else is going on, I personally feel bad for him.

[emtee]

I've thought about it quite a bit and have come to the conclusion that he was given a wonderful gift by being able to join DT. Presumably he made a decent living for several years and significantly elevated his stature during his time with the band. The other thing is; I don't think he ever felt like an equal partner and though he may not have called much attention to it, I think it bothered him. And I don't think that aspect would have ever changed regardless of how much longer he was with the band.