DREAM THEATER ANNOUNCE THE RETURN OF DRUMMER MIKE PORTNOY

[TAC]

This thread is triggering.

[HOF]

This thread is triggering.

I'm glad we got it back on track!

Well, I think it's safe to say that we've exhausted this conversation and fucked it from every single angle we possibly could.  Now all we do is sit back and wait for the album.....

Yes, but the click tracks!

[gborland]

When I think of my all time favourite live music moments, in which both band and audience were totally pumped and the performers were visibly emotional and totally living in the moment (many MP-era DT, Transatlantic and Spock's Beard gigs fall into this category!), the thought of sanitizing those moments by dragging the musicians out of the flow and forcing them to stick to a click track just fills me with horror.

[Sycsa]

I think Mangini's happiest time in DT seems to have been before he entered the band, in the documentary. He's an absolute pro and did everything the band needed to keep going (I especially like that he helped with songwriting with Paralyzed, Room 137 and The Alien, to mention a handful of examples), but I've always felt like he's followed by a dark cloud when talking about his work in the group. Not in terms of personal interactions with the members, but the whole ancillary structure – the public perception of his drum sound on the records, the "precision vs. feel" debate, being called upon to only play drums on The Astonishing (where, mind you, JLB and JM weren't also invited to the songwriting process as far as I know)... I've seen too many interviews where it felt like he was making excuses for things that were decided for him. He was always enough of a team player to take that and the (often unfair) criticism in stride, but (again, just speculation) it might be that he took the call of "we're getting MP back in" less like "oh no, my life's work! How dare you shitcan me?!" and more like "oh well! Time to [keep doing!] my stuff on my own then".

This made me think how JP and the rest of the band really didn't do him any favors for years, to put it mildly. Seeing what a sensitive subject the drummer change was, they should have been on top of it and ensured that MM had a by all accounts great and unquestionable drum sound from the beginning. Instead he got:

- A Dramatic Turn of Events (2011) - drums sounded like a 3-mic demo;
- Dream Theater (2013) - that infamous snare;
- The Astonishing (2016) - still a bad snare sound, plus that typewriter bass drum (https://youtu.be/fae4FQ4McSY?si=_sAVT9Bjo6E_GGqm&t=176 - we were listening to this in the car the other day, and right around this part my wife went: "What is that horrible noise, is there something wrong with the CD?").

Only by Distance over Time (2019) he got a drum sound that was beyond obvious and immediate reproach (still entirely average though), which means he had to weather nearly a decade of bad drum sound criticisms. By the time he got a drum sound that was actually pleasant to the ears, he was out.

[hefdaddy42]

The best drum sounds Mangini got during his DT career were on their live albums.

[bosk1]

Other than drums being a bit low in the mix and lacking the punch that MP's drums had, I've never had any problem with the drum sound and don't know what the issue supposedly is.

[Sycsa]

The best drum sounds Mangini got during his DT career were on their live albums.

Yeah, starting with Breaking the Fourth Wall, since Luna Park was a complete dud drum (and overall) sound-wise. I remember they had some technical difficulties with it, the release was delayed, Rena Petrucci tweeted (?) something about JP's monumental effort without which there would have been "no sound".

[cramx3]

Other than drums being a bit low in the mix and lacking the punch that MP's drums had, I've never had any problem with the drum sound and don't know what the issue supposedly is.

I thought the drums on ADTOE sounded poor, but the rest I'm not so sure about.  I think my ears just don't pick up on the nuances others do.  This is also coming from someone who likes the snare sound on I&W.

[Madman Shepherd]

The best drum sounds Mangini got during his DT career were on their live albums.

Yeah, starting with Breaking the Fourth Wall, since Luna Park was a complete dud drum (and overall) sound-wise. I remember they had some technical difficulties with it, the release was delayed, Rena Petrucci tweeted (?) something about JP's monumental effort without which there would have been "no sound".

Yeah there was a very odd and unexplained delay with that one. I never heard about Rena's tweet. I wonder what the story is with that.

Other than drums being a bit low in the mix and lacking the punch that MP's drums had, I've never had any problem with the drum sound and don't know what the issue supposedly is.

I think the problems with the drum sound is very overstated. I found myself criticizing the sound on ADTOE and then I listen to it and think, "wait, this isn't bad at all." That said, when I analyze it in detail, yeah, it's not great, but that's me being nitpicky. It's perfectly adequate.

Bosk, how do you feel about the sound on DT12? I actually quite like it but I can understand people that don't. It sure is "punchy." For what it's worth I like it a lot better than the I&W drum sound.

[ZirconBlue]

Other than drums being a bit low in the mix and lacking the punch that MP's drums had, I've never had any problem with the drum sound and don't know what the issue supposedly is.

Same.  My only minor quibble is I wish the cymbals were mixed louder on ADToE.

[bosk1]

Bosk, how do you feel about the sound on DT12? I actually quite like it but I can understand people that don't. It sure is "punchy." For what it's worth I like it a lot better than the I&W drum sound.

I was working about 2 2/12 hours away from home the day it dropped, and I remember stopping to pick it up at a store about 2 hours from home.  I popped it into the car's CD player (Remember when cars had those?  Don't get me started!) and played it at sufficiently ludicrous volume.  And I remember initially thinking the overall album sound was harsh, and that the album was really hot and brickwalled.  But I got used to that pretty quickly and didn't really hear it after a few listens.  I've never felt that the drum sound specifically was problematic or that it stood out in a negative way.

[Herrick]

I think Mangini's happiest time in DT seems to have been before he entered the band, in the documentary. He's an absolute pro and did everything the band needed to keep going (I especially like that he helped with songwriting with Paralyzed, Room 137 and The Alien, to mention a handful of examples), but I've always felt like he's followed by a dark cloud when talking about his work in the group. Not in terms of personal interactions with the members, but the whole ancillary structure – the public perception of his drum sound on the records, the "precision vs. feel" debate, being called upon to only play drums on The Astonishing (where, mind you, JLB and JM weren't also invited to the songwriting process as far as I know)... I've seen too many interviews where it felt like he was making excuses for things that were decided for him. He was always enough of a team player to take that and the (often unfair) criticism in stride, but (again, just speculation) it might be that he took the call of "we're getting MP back in" less like "oh no, my life's work! How dare you shitcan me?!" and more like "oh well! Time to [keep doing!] my stuff on my own then".

This made me think how JP and the rest of the band really didn't do him any favors for years, to put it mildly. Seeing what a sensitive subject the drummer change was, they should have been on top of it and ensured that MM had a by all accounts great and unquestionable drum sound from the beginning. Instead he got:

- A Dramatic Turn of Events (2011) - drums sounded like a 3-mic demo;
- Dream Theater (2013) - that infamous snare;
- The Astonishing (2016) - still a bad snare sound, plus that typewriter bass drum (https://youtu.be/fae4FQ4McSY?si=_sAVT9Bjo6E_GGqm&t=176 - we were listening to this in the car the other day, and right around this part my wife went: "What is that horrible noise, is there something wrong with the CD?").

Only by Distance over Time (2019) he got a drum sound that was beyond obvious and immediate reproach (still entirely average though), which means he had to weather nearly a decade of bad drum sound criticisms. By the time he got a drum sound that was actually pleasant to the ears, he was out.

Interesting. I never noticed how...ungood the bass drum sound was on that Astonishing song. I guess it's like that for the whole album too.

[Orbert]

With A Dramatic Turn of Events, I thought the drums sounded kinda weak, but Portnoy's drum sound was always big and in your face, so I figured that this was what the new guy was about.  Unlike a lot of people (apparently), I'd never heard of Mangini, and figured he (or more likely JP) didn't want the sound to be in your face; it was an intentional move in a different direction.  They still sounded weak to me, though, intentional or not.

The next couple of albums, I don't know.  I guess I stopped worrying about it.  Weak drums?  Okay, this is what DT drums sound like now.

[RodrigoAltaf]

Live at Luna Park was touched up in the studio to a LARGE extent, hence the delay in releasing it. Even the audience noise is piped in.

[bosk1]

Live at Luna Park was touched up in the studio to a LARGE extent, hence the delay in releasing it. Even the audience noise is piped in.

Well, live albums are ALWAYS touched up in the studio.  But, yeah, there were a lot of things that sound a bit strange from a sonic perspective.  (see what I did there)  While album sound/production isn't something I generally dwell on too much for most albums, I do find it a distracting on Luna Park and Fourth Wall.  Some really strange sound on both of those.

[Mosh]

I remember feeling like ADTOE drums were way too quiet, but it seemed pretty intentional partially because MP's drums had been so hot on the last couple albums and partially because it felt like they were trying to project the image of being more of a collective post-Portnoy and didn't want one instrument to stand out too much. Since everybody was naturally going to be scrutinizing the drums more, there was no need to draw even more attention to the drumming. Whatever the reason, I think drum sound really drags that album down.

After that, I never really had strong feelings on the drum production during the Mangini era. I have 0 problems with the DT12 drum sound and I liked that they were more in your face. The other three albums all had a "neutral" sound to me. Not too loud, not too quiet, sits well with everything else. If anything, I will look forward to the more "organic" drum sound that MP has.

[Sycsa]

The best drum sounds Mangini got during his DT career were on their live albums.

Yeah, starting with Breaking the Fourth Wall, since Luna Park was a complete dud drum (and overall) sound-wise. I remember they had some technical difficulties with it, the release was delayed, Rena Petrucci tweeted (?) something about JP's monumental effort without which there would have been "no sound".

Yeah there was a very odd and unexplained delay with that one. I never heard about Rena's tweet. I wonder what the story is with that.

On second thought, it's possible she posted it directly here, on DTF. If someone remembers her username, it could be easily verified. I don't recall her sharing any additional details beyond what I already shared though.

[crystalstars17]

Born from anti establishment roots in the 70's and counter culture defiance, rock shows were intended to be raw and somewhat imperfect but always impactful and full of energy. The use of a click kind of turns a rock show into a corporate seminar with the goal of perfection. However, in some cases, a performance can become so sterile that the very essence is lost. Just my thoughts....

I understand how these ideas influenced the course of music history, but these social constructs are outdated and unnecessary today. Society has changed, and so has technology. We can't know whether the bands back then would have used more technology had it been available to them if they thought it would improve their presentation. As one who cut her baby teeth on some of the music of that era (thanks Dad), there are some live clips from that time where the music is so shoddy as to make it unwatchable/unlistenable (though it doesn't seem to bother my dad as much, so, disclaimer: this may be simply a generational preference).

There are also bands today, some of which are themselves historic, who use this technology in their shows at the same time that they honor music history. Their shows are not "sterile", "corporate seminars" as much as they are using technology to elevate their product to the highest level of professionalism.

So there are plenty who feel that it is a hindrance rather than "something that is meant to be a help."   At least, as far as the performance of the music is concerned--it's more a help with being able to layer the music with backing tracks, effects, lighting, and video.

EDIT:  And what Hef said.

Thank you to those who answered from the musicians' perspective. I can appreciate this and what Emtee said about it depending on the personality.

[crystalstars17]

I've never felt that the drum sound specifically was problematic or that it stood out in a negative way.

Agreeing here. None of this ever stuck out for me nor bothered me.

[cramx3]

Born from anti establishment roots in the 70's and counter culture defiance, rock shows were intended to be raw and somewhat imperfect but always impactful and full of energy. The use of a click kind of turns a rock show into a corporate seminar with the goal of perfection. However, in some cases, a performance can become so sterile that the very essence is lost. Just my thoughts....

I understand how these ideas influenced the course of music history, but these social constructs are outdated and unnecessary today.

I disagree, at least somewhat. I guess it depends on what music concerts you are going to, but a large part of the live metal scene is STILL about this. Go to a hardcore show and you'll see.  Go to a DT show, and I can understand where you are coming from a bit more.  These social constructs are not outdated and still very necessary for certain scenes of music. 

Yeah, there's a lot of classic bands out there that didn't use the tech back then but do now, but I feel like a lot of those bands doing it now are doing it because they need to.  :looks at Motley Crue:

[hefdaddy42]

Also, just because technology allows for certain things does not in any way equate to those things being upgrades.  They are just tools for a different way to do things, that's all.

[EraVulgaris]

Not gonna lie, I'm happy for everyone here who is happy about this, and I'm kind of curious about the new album now, but this feels icky.

[crystalstars17]

Also, just because technology allows for certain things does not in any way equate to those things being upgrades.  They are just tools for a different way to do things, that's all.

I agree with that. But I think those of us coming to the fandom from the last-13-years perspective have embraced the band in that form, and are now about to get something suddenly and radically different. Or, hopefully not. I suppose we just need to wait and see.

[hefdaddy42]

Also, just because technology allows for certain things does not in any way equate to those things being upgrades.  They are just tools for a different way to do things, that's all.

I agree with that. But I think those of us coming to the fandom from the last-13-years perspective have braced the band in that form, and are now about to get something suddenly and radically different. Or, hopefully not. I suppose we just need to wait and see.

It's not going to be radically different.  What we got with Mangini wasn't radically different from what we had with Portnoy before.  They are all world class musicians, and they are going to put on awesome performances, just like they always have.

[bosk1]

What Hef said.  While I hate to keep repeating myself on this point, it's NOT "radically different."  For most, it's barely noticeable, and for many, it's not noticeable at all. 

[Herrick]

Bosk1, what were some of the weird sounds in Live at Luna Park? I've only listened to it once but I don't recall anything too strange. Maybe I'll listen to it again next week.

[bosk1]

The crowd sounds canned (which they are, as they are on a lot of live albums by a lot of bands, but they really sound like they are), for one thing.  But there's just an overall sound to the show that sounds...off, for some reason.  Hard to put my finger on it.  It's a great performance.  It's just an issue with the sound production of it.

[Herrick]

The crowd sounds canned (which they are, as they are on a lot of live albums by a lot of bands, but they really sound like they are), for one thing.  But there's just an overall sound to the show that sounds...off, for some reason.  Hard to put my finger on it.  It's a great performance.  It's just an issue with the sound production of it.

I see. That's too bad about the crowd noises but I get why they do it.

[jammindude]

What Bosk says is true about most live releases, as far as some touching up goes, but I've always felt that Dream Theater with Portnoy in the band tried to deviate from that. For better, or for worse, with Portnoy, he usually insisted that what you heard was what you got, warts and all. That's why OIALT was unfortunately not very good.

[TAC]

The crowd sounds canned (which they are, as they are on a lot of live albums by a lot of bands, but they really sound like they are), for one thing.  But there's just an overall sound to the show that sounds...off, for some reason.  Hard to put my finger on it.  It's a great performance.  It's just an issue with the sound production of it.

BTFW sounds similarly canned.

Their live album production in the MM Era sounds anything but...live.

[jammindude]

Sorry if my sentence structure isn't that great. I'm shopping with my wife at a Disney store in Orlando and using talk to text.

[bosk1]

The crowd sounds canned (which they are, as they are on a lot of live albums by a lot of bands, but they really sound like they are), for one thing.  But there's just an overall sound to the show that sounds...off, for some reason.  Hard to put my finger on it.  It's a great performance.  It's just an issue with the sound production of it.

BTFW sounds similarly canned.

Their live album production in the MM Era sounds anything but...live.

Yeah, agreed on BTFW.  IMO, that one sounds even worse.  In contrast, I don't remember feeling similarly about Distant Memories.  But that may just be because I have not listened to it nearly as much, and it's been awhile since the last time.  What did you think of that one, Tim?

[TAC]

The crowd sounds canned (which they are, as they are on a lot of live albums by a lot of bands, but they really sound like they are), for one thing.  But there's just an overall sound to the show that sounds...off, for some reason.  Hard to put my finger on it.  It's a great performance.  It's just an issue with the sound production of it.

BTFW sounds similarly canned.

Their live album production in the MM Era sounds anything but...live.

Yeah, agreed on BTFW.  IMO, that one sounds even worse.  In contrast, I don't remember feeling similarly about Distant Memories.  But that may just be because I have not listened to it nearly as much, and it's been awhile since the last time.  What did you think of that one, Tim?

It definitely sounds better, I'll give it that. To me it's like everything else with today's technology. It may be easier to do it digitally, but it really doesn't help the sound. It just makes it sound more fake.

Like in the movies, the CGI looks so fake. 1950's Japanese Godzilla movies look more real.

[ytserush]

Oh, god. Some of the regulars here would probably renounce their fandom if they reintroduced jams together with rotating setlists

Don't be surprised! Well, I kid, but only partially (and less to do with things like setlists).

At this point I'm inclined to walk away for a bit, if for no other reason to let the facts come out (about the way they handled things with MM) and the drama settle down. I honestly get more joy from other bands atm and perhaps not ironically they are for the most part bands who have either handled their drama differently and/or have buried it far in the past by now.

Add to everything else the radical change in presentation that you're talking about, it's just becoming not the same band (to me) anymore.

Highlighting the fact that this is just my subjective feelings about it all, but I'm just getting a bit fatigued here, as a fan.

I'm not sure we're going to know significantly more than we do already. I'd love to know exactly what happened because this seems uncharacteristic of the band at this stage (Even Portnoy admitted to being surprised.) But since Portnoy left, the PR seems to be more tightly controlled and even now that he's back, he's more careful about what he says. I don't think the change in presentation will be radical at all. There may be subtle differences like swapping out some songs, dumping the click tracks, more improv live.... I don't see too much other than that changing.

[ytserush]

[quote author=crystalstars17 link=topic=58684.msg3072660#msg3072660
Does no one understand the idea of being disappointed by your heroes? When you think they are some of the most intelligent and upstanding people and then they do something shitty to another person? I know this is partially my problem for idealizing them in the first place which is the only "personal" part in this; but the other part is that they did it. And if it were simply a business decision like some here speculate,
[/quote]

Seems like you'd be into Rush if you're into the people aspect.