DREAM THEATER ANNOUNCE THE RETURN OF DRUMMER MIKE PORTNOY

[KevShmev]

Music industry is also a lot different today.  Bands are putting more and more singles out and less albums.  Also I feel like the labels want bands to tour on new music wether it be the new single or new album.  So putting bands on the road for a full year before they can work on a new album.  And yet, there do exists bands that put out a ton of music still.  Evergrey released four albums in the last five years for example.

In the last five years (summer of 2019-through now), Taylor Swift has released five new studio albums, one of which is a double, and has also recorded and released four of her re-recordings in that timespan, and oh has been on the biggest tour ever now for over a year.   Of course, she has the creative freedom from her label to do whatever she wants and whenever, a freedom many bands/artists do not have, but it can be done.

In the case of Dream Theater, I think they should be cut some slack given their ages and output.  Most bands who last as long as DT do not keep releasing albums at the same pace they did when they were younger, and I have to think that they put a little extra TLC and work into this to make sure it is a good given the circumstances. 

[cramx3]

In the last five years (summer of 2019-through now), Taylor Swift has released five new studio albums, one of which is a double, and has also recorded and released four of her re-recordings in that timespan, and oh has been on the biggest tour ever now for over a year.   Of course, she has the creative freedom from her label to do whatever she wants and whenever, a freedom many bands/artists do not have, but it can be done.

The difference is Taylor prints money by doing anything, where as most metal acts rely on record label money to make their albums and therefore have to play by their rules.

[HOF]

The big difference between now and the 70s/80s is the medium. Bands were writhing 35-40 minutes worth of material for an LP back then. Now they are writing 60 minutes plus.

But also I don't think many artists can maintain a creative peak into their 50s and 60s where they can just pump out quality material in a couple months time twice a year. DT in their 20s probably could have done that. Those bands in the 70s did it in their youth as well, but they all slowed down as they got older. I think that is sort of a natural human creativity curve.

Taylor Swift is also a bit of a different thing. We can quibble about how much of her music is team written, but she does have some outside help so it's not like she is just by herself pumping out new fully formed music. There's also no band dynamic at play there where you have 5 guys all contributing at different levels to the writing, arranging, and recording process (for songs which are also longer and more complex). That can make the creative process a lot slower than for a solo artist who is making all the calls themselves.

[KevShmev]

The difference is Taylor prints money by doing anything, where as most metal acts rely on record label money to make their albums and therefore have to play by their rules.

Right, and I more or less said that at the end of the part of my post you quoted.

[Mosh]

Ahhh. My mistake. I could have sworn MP, or one of the guys, made a post online saying it was a wrap.

I think he posted that they finished writing it but the last update (from a couple days ago I think) is JR was now recording keyboards and JLB will record vocals "next month."

[Chino]

I think he posted that they finished writing it but the last update (from a couple days ago I think) is JR was now recording keyboards and JLB will record vocals "next month."

Got it. That certainly changes things. In that case, an early 2025 release seems more reasonable. Sounds like they might not even start mastering it until after July.   

[pg1067]

Ahhh. My mistake. I could have sworn MP, or one of the guys, made a post online saying it was a wrap.

Drums and guitars (and presumably bass) are done.  JR is currently recording keys, and JLB hasn't yet started vocals.

The one thing that strikes me as odd is that everyone is recording separately.  I know times have changed, but I feel like the end products is less sterile and more alive when everyone is in the studio together.

[Setlist Scotty]

Drums and guitars (and presumably bass) are done.  JR is currently recording keys, and JLB hasn't yet started vocals.

The one thing that strikes me as odd is that everyone is recording separately.  I know times have changed, but I feel like the end products is less sterile and more alive when everyone is in the studio together.

But this is the way it's pretty much always been done since SFaM as far as I understand. Unless part of the production team, the other band members not recording don't need to be in the studio. I recall MP commenting that only he and JP would be in the studio for the entire process, and with JP being the sole producer now, it seems likely that he'll be the only one in the studio during the entire process.

[hunnus2000]

Drums and guitars (and presumably bass) are done.  JR is currently recording keys, and JLB hasn't yet started vocals.

The one thing that strikes me as odd is that everyone is recording separately.  I know times have changed, but I feel like the end products is less sterile and more alive when everyone is in the studio together.

Weren't they all in the same studio for DOT?

[Setlist Scotty]

Weren't they all in the same studio for DOT?

For writing the album, absolutely. But when it comes to recording, I don't necessarily think so, although I could be wrong.

[hefdaddy42]

For writing the album, absolutely. But when it comes to recording, I don't necessarily think so, although I could be wrong.

You're not wrong.

If I'm not mistaken, for the bulk of SFAM, they recorded things (or bits of things) that they would jam on during the writing process.  They did that because that's how JP, JR, and MP had worked on the LTE projects.  But the norm for them (and most other bands and recording artists) is and has been for decades to record individually.  Lay down the drums, then one of the melodic instruments (guitar or keys), then the bass, then most of the other instruments, then vocals, sometimes solos after that.  There's also room to go back in and add things.  But recording everyone at once is not the norm for most kinds of western popular music.  It is done in jazz, but not even all the time there.

[Dream Team]

The big difference between now and the 70s/80s is the medium. Bands were writhing 35-40 minutes worth of material for an LP back then. Now they are writing 60 minutes plus.

But also I don't think many artists can maintain a creative peak into their 50s and 60s where they can just pump out quality material in a couple months time twice a year. DT in their 20s probably could have done that. Those bands in the 70s did it in their youth as well, but they all slowed down as they got older. I think that is sort of a natural human creativity curve.

Taylor Swift is also a bit of a different thing. We can quibble about how much of her music is team written, but she does have some outside help so it's not like she is just by herself pumping out new fully formed music. There's also no band dynamic at play there where you have 5 guys all contributing at different levels to the writing, arranging, and recording process (for songs which are also longer and more complex). That can make the creative process a lot slower than for a solo artist who is making all the calls themselves.

Yeah, methinks DT puts a hair more effort into their complex music than a pop brand.

[hefdaddy42]

Yeah, methinks DT puts a hair more effort into their complex music than a pop brand.

Maybe, maybe not.

[gzarruk]

IIRC, it was Rick Beato who analyzed some of the top most popular songs in the world atm and TL;DR most of them were just made of a couple reused samples, a programmed drum beat and some lyrics on top There's just no comparison point to DT or any other similar band.

[Stadler]

The big difference between now and the 70s/80s is the medium. Bands were writhing 35-40 minutes worth of material for an LP back then. Now they are writing 60 minutes plus.

But also I don't think many artists can maintain a creative peak into their 50s and 60s where they can just pump out quality material in a couple months time twice a year. DT in their 20s probably could have done that. Those bands in the 70s did it in their youth as well, but they all slowed down as they got older. I think that is sort of a natural human creativity curve.

Taylor Swift is also a bit of a different thing. We can quibble about how much of her music is team written, but she does have some outside help so it's not like she is just by herself pumping out new fully formed music. There's also no band dynamic at play there where you have 5 guys all contributing at different levels to the writing, arranging, and recording process (for songs which are also longer and more complex). That can make the creative process a lot slower than for a solo artist who is making all the calls themselves.

Don't disagree with any of that but I would just add that album cycles were a lot shorter then.   Kiss and Rush had albums that were 30, 35 minutes long, but there were in some cases two every year, but certainly not more than a year between releases. 

Well, I might push back a bit on the "complexity" thing; I get that it fits the narrative a bit, but 50 minutes of music is 50 minutes of music.  Though I've written songs in my life, I certainly cannot do what any of the DT members can do instrumentally, but then again, that there are lesser notes per minute in Yesterday or A Day In The Life doesn't make it a lesser song than Metropolis, Pt. 1.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

For writing the album, absolutely. But when it comes to recording, I don't necessarily think so, although I could be wrong.

In the UA music video JP is recording his parts alone, so I think you are right that the music was written collectively but recording was done separately.

[ReaperKK]

Yeah, methinks DT puts a hair more effort into their complex music than a pop brand.

I mean do they? They are more technically proficient than other contemporaries but going "lets put a verse here, the chorus, and then JP does a solo, JR does a solo, the do a unison solo" is hardly transcendent songwriting. Song technicality and complexity does not equate to song quality IMO.

[HOF]

Not saying one is better than the other, I just imagine it can take a bit more time to get a longer and more complex piece of music written, arranged, and recorded. Though obviously the DT guys have pumped that type of music out quickly in the past so not necessarily.

[cramx3]

Maybe if we are talking an album like TA with a full story and lots of re-occuring musical themes throughout compared to a typical pop album, but I think generally, there's not a huge difference in terms of times needed to make an album.  Also things like orchestration and whatnot could add a lot more time.  But I've never been in a studio, I am just guessing really.

[HOF]

I guess the key is really how much inspiration and time you have to dedicate to the project right then and there. The band seemed to have plenty of inspiration to write the album quickly, but the individual members have other commitments they are still honoring outside of the recording studio right now and that is slowing things down a bit. But there is also probably a certain amount of "let's not rush this, let's take our time and get it all just right," which is probably a good thing.

Lots of artists work at different speeds and agonize over every little decision. Sometimes that means like 6, 10 years between albums. Sometimes that means 6 months together in the studio and another 6 doing re-writes, overdubs, and mixing. Sometimes they get banged out in a couple weeks or a couple months from start to finish. One is not necessarily better than the other and doesn't necessarily lead to better results. This process might be a little longer by DT standards, but it's been quick compared to how a band like Marillion writes and records. Just different ways of working for different artists.

[crystalstars17]

But also I don't think many artists can maintain a creative peak into their 50s and 60s where they can just pump out quality material in a couple months time twice a year. DT in their 20s probably could have done that. Those bands in the 70s did it in their youth as well, but they all slowed down as they got older. I think that is sort of a natural human creativity curve.

I respectfully disagree with this. I think it's more a matter of quality v. quantity. Earlier in their careers, of course bands will put out as much quantity as possible - even if that means quality is at times somewhat compromised - to stay relevant and keep themselves in the spotlight. Later on, the same band can afford to back away from that formula because they already have a fan base and are no longer just starting out. Look how long Iron Maiden took to release Senjutsu? They even sat on the finished product for about two years! It's definitely not because their creativity has somehow slowed down, if anything it may be one of their more creative albums to date. And I expect no less from DT.

If life experience affects anything, it's the quality of their product. So established bands don't need to inundate the market with new releases every year and instead can take their time and create a higher quality finished product. The creativity is still there (and who here doesn't marvel over DT's apparent endless supply of it?), it's just taken a deeper and more complex form that requires a little more time and attention to bring to perfection.

Yeah, methinks DT puts a hair more effort into their complex music than a pop brand.

💯 Pop music is less about creativity and talent and all about star quality.

All of that said, it was nice to hear from James  And if I may say so, he is looking good - red hair again, thank heaven 😍 (so my fangirl slip is showing, sue me ).

[Mosh]

The Iron Maiden comparison is kind of disingenuous. Nothing has changed in the last 25 years about the way they make albums. They sat on Senjutsu because they couldn't tour on it. They take longer between albums because they spend 2 years on an album cycle and then 2 or 3 years doing hits touring. There isn't really a quality or quantity thing happening there as they don't write much outside the (somewhat short) recording sessions.

[crystalstars17]

The Iron Maiden comparison is kind of disingenuous. Nothing has changed in the last 25 years about the way they make albums. They sat on Senjutsu because they couldn't tour on it. They take longer between albums because they spend 2 years on an album cycle and then 2 or 3 years doing hits touring. There isn't really a quality or quantity thing happening there as they don't write much outside the (somewhat short) recording sessions.

I don't think you meant to use the word disingenuous, as this literally means "dishonest and insincere"? My comparison was anything but that as I love both bands. Perhaps incongruous may have been a better word choice, because the two bands' situations or reasons for doing something may be entirely different from one another. I don't know, I'm not pretending to know, nor am I disparaging the decisions of either entity. My apologies for giving any negative impression.

My point was addressed at HOF's assertion that bands lose creative momentum simply due to their age, which I disagreed with and pointed out how established bands are better able - for whatever disparate reasons they choose - to take their time with writing, producing, and releasing a new album. And who are we as fans to collectively sit here and whine because it's not coming out fast enough?

[KevShmev]

Well, I might push back a bit on the "complexity" thing; I get that it fits the narrative a bit, but 50 minutes of music is 50 minutes of music.  Though I've written songs in my life, I certainly cannot do what any of the DT members can do instrumentally, but then again, that there are lesser notes per minute in Yesterday or A Day In The Life doesn't make it a lesser song than Metropolis, Pt. 1.

Agreed.  I know we are on the wrong forum to say it , but the idea that more notes and more complexity means "more work" is pure nonsense.  DT, for example, have made some of their best albums in a short time span, and we can even extend that to LTE, as I know they wrote and recorded the first album (which is GREAT) seemingly in the blink of an eye (maybe the 2nd as well, it's hard to recall).  Some people work fast, some do not (see: Tool).  Plus, some artists are just naturally creative and can bust out a lot of music in a short span because of how quickly bursts of creativity come to them.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

This news is definitely what I feared. Lots of people chastised me for suggestion the album likely wouldn't be out before the EU tour, and even I hoped I was wrong, but this is definitely sucky news. I guess the best album of 2024 will actually be the best album of 2025

[crystalstars17]

I guess the best album of 2024

...That distinction belongs to Firewind - Stand United ...

will actually be the best album of 2025

...And I will leave this to DT ✨

[Kyo]

I mean do they? They are more technically proficient than other contemporaries but going "lets put a verse here, the chorus, and then JP does a solo, JR does a solo, the do a unison solo" is hardly transcendent songwriting.

Doesn't sound like you've ever analyzed the structure of any typical DT song too closely. Even super-basic stuff like the fact that they now pretty much routinely switch things up significantly between the 1st verse and the 2nd verse means having to put more work and creativity into a song compared to one that simply repeats the same idea later on. A song like Sleeping Giant even completely changes up the chorus the 2nd time around. And that is just the obvious stuff. Something like The Alien, where many parts are variations of the same idea, but never played quite the same way twice, takes so much more work than just stringing a bunch of chords together and repeating them several times.

Song technicality and complexity does not equate to song quality IMO.

That's an entirely different discussion.

[Dream Team]

Right, I said nothing about how many tweens like a song; just the amount of effort put into the chords, time signatures, etc etc. But why stop at Taylor Swift? Surely many others like Katy Perry, Nicky Minaj, Justin Bieber, etc put DT to shame when it comes to quantity and quality of output.

[ytserush]

Music industry is also a lot different today.  Bands are putting more and more singles out and less albums.  Also I feel like the labels want bands to tour on new music wether it be the new single or new album.  So putting bands on the road for a full year before they can work on a new album.  And yet, there do exists bands that put out a ton of music still.  Evergrey released four albums in the last five years for example.

Unlimited supply. Limited demand.

[ytserush]

The Iron Maiden comparison is kind of disingenuous. Nothing has changed in the last 25 years about the way they make albums. They sat on Senjutsu because they couldn't tour on it. They take longer between albums because they spend 2 years on an album cycle and then 2 or 3 years doing hits touring. There isn't really a quality or quantity thing happening there as they don't write much outside the (somewhat short) recording sessions.

Recordings don't make any money. Touring is where any profit is even though there has been less of that going forward.

[hunnus2000]

Recordings don't make any money. Touring is where any profit is even though there has been less of that going forward.

Wow, this has really changed. Back in my day the bands relied on album sales to make money (like a half penny or something like that) and in recent years, they rely on touring to make money. Maybe it's because tickets were like 10.00.

[Schurftkut]

Bumblefoot called modern musicians touring T-Shirt sellers, because that's why those are 45,- euros 

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

This is part of the reason why JP is selling everything from amps to guitar camps to booze to beard oil lol. You need to do this stuff to have other income streams away from touring. Agreed the albums make very little themselves.

[wolfking]

...That distinction belongs to Firewind - Stand United ...

...And I will leave this to DT ✨

That's a big call.  Enjoyable album but pretty run of the mill for me. 

[Glasser]

When Systematic Chaos was released I thought it was a total turd. It's wild how expectations and first impressions can sometimes flush an album for good or so I thought. I recently revisited it and realized how brilliant it truly is, and by the way, this is now one of my favorite vocal performances by James. While the music is dark and sometimes meandering I have fully connected with it. A DT fan since day one and I'm still discovering beauty in older albums I never thought I would which gives me an even bigger appreciation for them than I already had.