*Official* A View from the Top of the World discussion thread

[Kram]

More SDOIT, 8VM, ADTOE for me please.

Yes, and specifically more SDOIT disc 1.

[Kyo]

Well, im obviously going against the grain of the posts above lol. View is my 3rd fav album behind Images and Words and Scenes. The title track is right near the top of the epics for me. Its the most consistent album since Scenes for me - some since Scenes have higher highs than View but also lower lows. Transcending Time was my least fav at first but its my second fav now just ahead of Sleeping Giant.

I sincerely hope DT16 quality wise is closer to the last 2 Mangini albums than the last 2 Portnoy albums but I guess I might be in the minority there! 🤣

We may be in the minority, but I do agree. I think it's their best and most consistent album since Scenes for sure. Personally I actually think it's probably even better than that overall (because Scenes sacrifices some song flow for the concept occasionally, for example). Either way, I definitely get more out of it these days, though I may just have played Scenes to death back in the days. 

[TheOutlawXanadu]

While I certainly respect everyone's opinion, a 4.5/10 for A View from the Top of the World seems a bit harsh.

I'm not sure exactly how I'd rank it, but it would definitely go in the bucket of "Solid Dream Theater" in my books along with a handful of other albums from over the years. And I personally have it comfortably ahead of the last two Portnoy records, although I can jive with the idea that those albums probably had higher highs. I've always felt that ITPOE is one of their more underrated tunes.

[WilliamMunny]

While I certainly respect everyone's opinion, a 4.5/10 for A View from the Top of the World seems a bit harsh.

I'm not sure exactly how I'd rank it, but it would definitely go in the bucket of "Solid Dream Theater" in my books along with a handful of other albums from over the years. And I personally have it comfortably ahead of the last two Portnoy records, although I can jive with the idea that those albums probably had higher highs. I've always felt that ITPOE is one of their more underrated tunes.

Well, that's thing about opinions–'harsh' is in the eye of the beholder.

I 'liked' View, but it has not aged well with me at all. 4.5/10 feels about right to me, if not charitable.

There's nothing glaringly bad to my ears, but man, it might be the blandest thing DT has ever put their name on.

Honestly, even The Astonishing sits better with at this point bc the band had some massive balls to put that out there.

But, then again, that's just one man's opinion.

As a fan, I am nothing but happy that others are still enjoying the band's most recent output

[Jamesman42]

I mean, 4.5 half way to a ten. Almost the definition of what the kids call "mid" nowadays. Which is what the album is IMO.

I agree with WM, it's the blandest thing they've done. It sounds very samey overall.

[Glasser]

Still love View. Aged well for me.

[Wim Kruithof]

Still love View. Aged well for me.

Very much the same for me. Loved it from the get-go and not one song is a skip for me. Spin it as a whole at least each three months.

It's funny here in DT-forumland there is a constantly urge to rank. Rank songs, rank albums... but it's so hard. I see it more spectrum-wise and there are times when I long for proggy Systematic Chaos-moments, as there are times when I just wanna get on the metal ride of Train of Thought. Every now and then I jump on the Astonishing train and so on... I quit ranking because it's hard and close to impossible.

[Glasser]

Very much the same for me. Loved it from the get-go and not one song is a skip for me. Spin it as a whole at least each three months.

It's funny here in DT-forumland there is a constantly urge to rank. Rank songs, rank albums... but it's so hard. I see it more spectrum-wise and there are times when I long for proggy Systematic Chaos-moments, as there are times when I just wanna get on the metal ride of Train of Thought. Every now and then I jump on the Astonishing train and so on... I quit ranking because it's hard and close to impossible.

It's hard for me to rank because it depends on what phase I'm in. It changes constantly.

[KevShmev]

I mean, 4.5 half way to a ten. Almost the definition of what the kids call "mid" nowadays. Which is what the album is IMO.

I agree with WM, it's the blandest thing they've done. It sounds very samey overall.

I thought that at first as well, due to how much of the album has that chugging over double bass drumming, but once I got past that mental block, I was finally able to really get into it.  I agree with the other recent chatter that Invisible Monster is pretty mediocre, but I enjoy the rest a lot now (even if nothing from it would be a a top tier DT track for me).

[Jamesman42]

I thought that at first as well, due to how much of the album has that chugging over double bass drumming, but once I got past that mental block, I was finally able to really get into it.  I agree with the other recent chatter that Invisible Monster is pretty mediocre, but I enjoy the rest a lot now (even if nothing from it would be a a top tier DT track for me).

I will still give it more tries in the future. I want to like it and maybe I can get past that mental block, too.

[Stadler]

I will still give it more tries in the future. I want to like it and maybe I can get past that mental block, too.

It's absolutely the mental block I struggle with most. 

[Adami]

I will still give it more tries in the future. I want to like it and maybe I can get past that mental block, too.

I am glad if people can get past whatever it is blocking them. Me? I just don't have the time, energy, or reason to force myself to listen to something I don't enjoy over and over and over in an effort to enjoy it.

I'm perfectly fine just not enjoying it.

I gave it at least 3 listens and I just didn't enjoy way more parts than I did enjoy.

In fact, I don't even know what album we're talking about as I typed all of that because the last 3 or so records all fall into that same category to me.

[gzarruk]

It's funny here in DT-forumland there is a constantly urge to rank. Rank songs, rank albums... but it's so hard.

... I quit ranking because it's hard and close to impossible.

Rest assured you're not the only one who finds it that way

[Jamesman42]

I am glad if people can get past whatever it is blocking them. Me? I just don't have the time, energy, or reason to force myself to listen to something I don't enjoy over and over and over in an effort to enjoy it.

I'm perfectly fine just not enjoying it.

I gave it at least 3 listens and I just didn't enjoy way more parts than I did enjoy.

In fact, I don't even know what album we're talking about as I typed all of that because the last 3 or so records all fall into that same category to me.

For sure, I hadn't listened in a while and saw this thread pop up and thought to try and give a more focused try. I might not listen again for months or longer. I also don't always have that energy except right now since I am on break til August.

[pg1067]

While I certainly respect everyone's opinion, a 4.5/10 for A View from the Top of the World seems a bit harsh.

Is it, though?

There are people out there who, when asked, "what's the best Dream Theater album" or "what's the best song on Album X," will say, mindlessly, "all of them."  There are people who would rate every DT or Rush or Iron Maiden album no worse than a 9.0 out of 10.  However, unless you genuinely think everything over the band's 32 1/2 years of releasing albums (1989-2021) is exceptional, it's not unreasonable to spread the albums out over the range of 1-10.  For me, for example, if SFAM is a 10, then Systematic Chaos and The Astonishing sure as heck aren't getting more than a 4.5.  Does that mean I think those albums are tripe or is my ranking harsh?  No.  It's just an expression of how I rank the band's albums relative to each other.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I have changed my view on A View. I thought it was an 8 but it's really an 8.5

I am still playing the crap out of it. I skip Invisible Monster and I think Sleeping Giant fell short of expectations but I really love the other songs. Even the Alien, which I felt was very safe and DT-by-the-book, is better with age. MM is the MVP of that song and the non-JP MVP of the album.

[KevShmev]

I am glad if people can get past whatever it is blocking them. Me? I just don't have the time, energy, or reason to force myself to listen to something I don't enjoy over and over and over in an effort to enjoy it.

I generally agree with you, but new albums by my top tier favorites will always be given more chances due to the musical equity they have built up.

[Adami]

I generally agree with you, but new albums by my top tier favorites will always be given more chances due to the musical equity they have built up.

I get that. And I listened to their last few albums 3-4 times and it didn't change my opinion a single bit. No back catalogue is going to convince me to keep going until I like it. If someone recommends some band to me and I don't like it, I'll try maybe one more time. DT and such get 3-4 times but if it's not moving the needle, I'm moving on. I also am perfectly content not liking something. I don't hold it against the band or anything, I just look for something else.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I am glad if people can get past whatever it is blocking them. Me? I just don't have the time, energy, or reason to force myself to listen to something I don't enjoy over and over and over in an effort to enjoy it.

I'm perfectly fine just not enjoying it.

I gave it at least 3 listens and I just didn't enjoy way more parts than I did enjoy.

In fact, I don't even know what album we're talking about as I typed all of that because the last 3 or so records all fall into that same category to me.

That's a shame. DT aside, some of my favorite music I did not like on my first or second listen but I am grateful I stuck with it. A whole world of music can open up if you start to think about listening to some music as 'work' that yields a reward in the end. It's a crazy idea (believe me, I know how that sounds), but I'm glad I had professors to explain how it can work.

[Dream Team]

Is it, though?

There are people out there who, when asked, "what's the best Dream Theater album" or "what's the best song on Album X," will say, mindlessly, "all of them."  There are people who would rate every DT or Rush or Iron Maiden album no worse than a 9.0 out of 10.  However, unless you genuinely think everything over the band's 32 1/2 years of releasing albums (1989-2021) is exceptional, it's not unreasonable to spread the albums out over the range of 1-10.  For me, for example, if SFAM is a 10, then Systematic Chaos and The Astonishing sure as heck aren't getting more than a 4.5.  Does that mean I think those albums are tripe or is my ranking harsh?  No.  It's just an expression of how I rank the band's albums relative to each other.

Good post and I see your point; you've always been really good at this sort of thing - keeping tabs and assigning scores during song countdowns, etc. A scale of 100 probably works better for a band like DT because SO MUCH of what they've done is great imo. So if Images is 100 in my book, their worst album wouldn't be 89 but 55 or something.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Is it, though?

There are people out there who, when asked, "what's the best Dream Theater album" or "what's the best song on Album X," will say, mindlessly, "all of them."  There are people who would rate every DT or Rush or Iron Maiden album no worse than a 9.0 out of 10.  However, unless you genuinely think everything over the band's 32 1/2 years of releasing albums (1989-2021) is exceptional, it's not unreasonable to spread the albums out over the range of 1-10.  For me, for example, if SFAM is a 10, then Systematic Chaos and The Astonishing sure as heck aren't getting more than a 4.5.  Does that mean I think those albums are tripe or is my ranking harsh?  No.  It's just an expression of how I rank the band's albums relative to each other.

You know, it's funny because there is a big debate going on in the video gaming community right now about how games are scored. In particular, people are criticizing how the entire range of scores doesn't get used for AAA games. Most of those games receive 7+ at a minimum. Seems this debate is destined to rage everywhere.

My personal opinion is that rating albums, games, or anything really has been de facto done in a "school report card" kind of way for a long time now, so that's the way my brain defaults to. In that system, there will be the occasional student who bombs with a 40%, but the average typically comes out in the 70s. Just my two cents!

[Stadler]

You know, it's funny because there is a big debate going on in the video gaming community right now about how games are scored. In particular, people are criticizing how the entire range of scores doesn't get used for AAA games. Most of those games receive 7+ at a minimum. Seems this debate is destined to rage everywhere.

My personal opinion is that rating albums, games, or anything really has been de facto done in a "school report card" kind of way for a long time now, so that's the way my brain defaults to. In that system, there will be the occasional student who bombs with a 40%, but the average typically comes out in the 70s. Just my two cents!

So you're giving out a lot of participation trophies?   

[Progmaniac1988]

I love every song on this album except invisible monster... that song I usually skip. I don't hate it, but I feel it has nothing that really grabs me about it. The rest is great tho imo. I actually love the alien. Sleeping giant is probably my favorite. Really everything except "IM" I'd say it's a solid 7.5 for me. Mangini's best performance and drum sound hands down too.

[Jamesman42]

You know, it's funny because there is a big debate going on in the video gaming community right now about how games are scored. In particular, people are criticizing how the entire range of scores doesn't get used for AAA games. Most of those games receive 7+ at a minimum. Seems this debate is destined to rage everywhere.

My personal opinion is that rating albums, games, or anything really has been de facto done in a "school report card" kind of way for a long time now, so that's the way my brain defaults to. In that system, there will be the occasional student who bombs with a 40%, but the average typically comes out in the 70s. Just my two cents!

Rating everything a 7 or above tends to give less weight to those scores at times. A 5/10 would be average but we feel that a 7/10 is average due to how we received grades in school. So my 4.5 score was meant to say the album was okay, nothing special, but not damningly bad.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Rating everything a 7 or above tends to give less weight to those scores at times. A 5/10 would be average but we feel that a 7/10 is average due to how we received grades in school. So my 4.5 score was meant to say the album was okay, nothing special, but not damningly bad.

I think all I'm trying to say is that in the same way schools design their courses so that a 70% is average, that's kind of how reviews have trended as well. So when I see a rating of 4.5/10, my brain immediately goes to "Dang, that's harsh!" because it goes against the norm. But now that you've explained your approach, I understand where you're coming from! TOX's brain has been recalibrated!

Regarding the participation trophy thing, I'm not trying to advocate for anything like that, I just think your average Dream Theater album probably does come out to like a 7/10 or something for me personally because in comparison to all the albums of the world, I do think that Dream Theater albums are generally of a very high quality. Others may disagree, which is totally cool, but that's where my head's at.

[Jamesman42]

I think all I'm trying to say is that in the same way schools design their courses so that a 70% is average, that's kind of how reviews have trended as well. So when I see a rating of 4.5/10, my brain immediately goes to "Dang, that's harsh!" because it goes against the norm. But now that you've explained your approach, I understand where you're coming from! TOX's brain has been recalibrated!

Regarding the participation trophy thing, I'm not trying to advocate for anything like that, I just think your average Dream Theater album probably does come out to like a 7/10 or something for me personally because in comparison to all the albums of the world, I do think that Dream Theater albums are generally of a very high quality. Others may disagree, which is totally cool, but that's where my head's at.

[Wim Kruithof]

I have changed my view on A View. I thought it was an 8 but it's really an 8.5

I am still playing the crap out of it.

Once again agree with you completely. The album never gets bored and keeps on satisfying me. The songs I listen to most are Answering the Call and Awaken the Master. But the regular vinyl spin often does the job pretty good.

[Stadler]

Regarding the participation trophy thing, I'm not trying to advocate for anything like that, I just think your average Dream Theater album probably does come out to like a 7/10 or something for me personally because in comparison to all the albums of the world, I do think that Dream Theater albums are generally of a very high quality. Others may disagree, which is totally cool, but that's where my head's at.

As some of you know, I'm FASCINATED by this topic. 

So - and I don't say this to break your stones, but to set up the next question - no one person can determine if a work of art is "quality" or not; you're just saying that to all the albums of the world, you LIKE Dream Theater albums more. That's fine (I do too). 

Here's the question: do the results of the group - whatever the group is - change that from subjective to objective?  Meaning, if you have 1,000,000 (or whatever number, as long as it's statistically relevant) people, and they rate the DT albums, on average, a 7, and they rate the Bon Jovi records (or Kiss, or Selena Gomez, doesn't matter who) records an 8, are they now objectively better?  Or does the standard stay at "just more people like them"?  We don't know the makeup of the 1,000,000, so we can't say that some are smarter, or more educated, or more enlightened... they are who they are. 

[Adami]

As some of you know, I'm FASCINATED by this topic. 

So - and I don't say this to break your stones, but to set up the next question - no one person can determine if a work of art is "quality" or not; you're just saying that to all the albums of the world, you LIKE Dream Theater albums more. That's fine (I do too). 

Here's the question: do the results of the group - whatever the group is - change that from subjective to objective?  Meaning, if you have 1,000,000 (or whatever number, as long as it's statistically relevant) people, and they rate the DT albums, on average, a 7, and they rate the Bon Jovi records (or Kiss, or Selena Gomez, doesn't matter who) records an 8, are they now objectively better?  Or does the standard stay at "just more people like them"?  We don't know the makeup of the 1,000,000, so we can't say that some are smarted, or more educated, or more enlightened... they are who they are.

No.





TLDR: No.

[Stadler]

I not clear...

[hunnus2000]

As some of you know, I'm FASCINATED by this topic. 

So - and I don't say this to break your stones, but to set up the next question - no one person can determine if a work of art is "quality" or not; you're just saying that to all the albums of the world, you LIKE Dream Theater albums more. That's fine (I do too). 

Here's the question: do the results of the group - whatever the group is - change that from subjective to objective?  Meaning, if you have 1,000,000 (or whatever number, as long as it's statistically relevant) people, and they rate the DT albums, on average, a 7, and they rate the Bon Jovi records (or Kiss, or Selena Gomez, doesn't matter who) records an 8, are they now objectively better?  Or does the standard stay at "just more people like them"?  We don't know the makeup of the 1,000,000, so we can't say that some are smarted, or more educated, or more enlightened... they are who they are.

I think you know the answer to this. My question is what is your motivation for asking?

[Stadler]

To hear the thoughts of the group.  We've gone round on this for as long as I've been here; I'm staunchly in the "there is no "good" or "great" only "I like it"", but this seemed like a slightly different take.

I don't KNOW the answer, I just know what MY answer would be (it doesn't).  I believe only the artist can say if a work is "good" or not, based on how close the final outcome came to their vision.

[Adami]

To hear the thoughts of the group.  We've gone round on this for as long as I've been here; I'm staunchly in the "there is no "good" or "great" only "I like it"", but this seemed like a slightly different take.

I don't KNOW the answer, I just know what MY answer would be (it doesn't).  I believe only the artist can say if a work is "good" or not, based on how close the final outcome came to their vision.

I guess my no, was mostly in jest but also my real answer.

Good is not quantiative or measurable. So it can't be objective, no matter how many people agree. If every single human being on earth thought Learning to Live was the greatest song ever, it would still be subjective.

So, in short, Learning to Live is subjectively great, no matter how many people agree. It is objectively 11:30 seconds long on the album. It objectively has an F# sung in it. That the F# rocks or is cool is purely subjective.

Learning to Live is not objectively better than Pip farting on a snare for 6 seconds. It is, however, objectively longer.

[crystalstars17]

We don't know the makeup of the 1,000,000, so we can't say that some are smarted, or more educated, or more enlightened... they are who they are.

This is the most problematic part of your inquiry. No musical taste makes anyone "smarter, more educated/enlightened" than another. My jazz-preferring coworker is no smarter than my metal-loving brother just because he (subjectively) prefers jazz.

That's something that I unfortunately see a lot of with prog fans in particular. Not saying this is you or anyone here, but at large they tend to feel special and smarter/enlightened musically compared with other music fans (and I actually know someone irl who won't even give Dream Theater a try because they are not "real" prog from the 70's).

Musical tastes don't make anyone better than anyone else. It's ALL subjective.

[brakkum]

Learning to Live is not objectively better than Pip farting on a snare for 6 seconds. It is, however, objectively longer.

Anything is possible with enough burritos