DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)

[Glasser]

The title track random thoughts: Extremely Grandiose, takes me on a journey through trial of tears, Metropolis, Learning to live BUT also think Fates Warning "Still Remains" as far as the mood at times, and any epic tune by Threshold as well. Mesmerizing and thought provoking. James' vocal approach has a serious and very passionate and a dark urgency to it. It sucks you in and leaves you in deep thought.....  Jim Matheos will love this one... Ray Alder would sound great as a guest on it.. these are just quick thoughts that hit me on this tune.

[Kotowboy]

No ballads, a few softer spots, 90s throwbacks, sounds like my kind of album!!! 

And No triggered snare !!!!

[Ben_Jamin]

The title track random thoughts: Extremely Grandiose, takes me on a journey through trial of tears, Metropolis, Learning to live BUT also think Fates Warning "Still Remains" and any epic tune by Threshold. Mesmerizing. Very serious. It sucks you in.....  Jim Matheos will love this one... Ray Alder would sound great as a guest on it.. these are just quick thoughts that hit me on this tune.

I'm just gonna have to take your word for it until the release.

[Glasser]

The title track random thoughts: Extremely Grandiose, takes me on a journey through trial of tears, Metropolis, Learning to live BUT also think Fates Warning "Still Remains" and any epic tune by Threshold. Mesmerizing. Very serious. It sucks you in.....  Jim Matheos will love this one... Ray Alder would sound great as a guest on it.. these are just quick thoughts that hit me on this tune.

I'm just gonna have to take your word for it until the release.

This is how the song hits me personally. Everyone will have their own opinion and that's fine. I see people here that love the song Octavarium and I personally know people who find it boring. Once again, thats the beauty of DT.

[bosk1]

I didn't get a Still Remains vibe.  But I only listened to it once, so... 

[rab7]

Very serious. It sucks

Oh no

[Glasser]

Very serious. It sucks

Oh no

😂😂😂

[Dedalus]

Am I late to say that Mike Portnoy sucks?    
I'm kidding

I don't find Octavarium to be any more or less of a hodge podge than the others.  They are all long for the sake of being long to a degree.  I think ACOS probably justifies it's length better than most as it has a narrative running through it and needs to cover the different seasons our life, the drum sound is pretty horrible in it though, much more bothersome to me than how they sounded  on Illumination Theory.

For sure. And that's for any and every band.

[ReaPsTA]

um........ *spews bad vibes into the thread for no reason*

Am I doing it right?

[erwinrafael]

Re: epics, I would absolutely love another one in the vain of Octavarium where it's a very clear build over the movements, with gradually increasing intensity throughout. Though I don't think Illumination Theory flows badly by any means... my issue with that song is mostly just that the finale falls really flat. It feels like they were trying really hard to do another Razor's Edge, but there just isn't any strong melody to back the grand instrumentation up, and the solo's fine but not enough to elevate the section much.

And they re-used the ambient mid section idea from The Count. The string section is very nice though.

The ambient section's fine and doesn't sound all that similar to the one from TCOT imo. I know someone said this earlier (I forget who) but while that section might seem out-of-nowhere in a vacuum it makes perfect sense given the lyrical concept of the song.

That "who" would be me who made this analysis years ago.  And while arguments would be made again that DT writes the music first before the lyrics, I don't think you can compose a song with a structure this conceptually meticulous idf you do not have an idea of the themes the song will take.

I commented on this in the Illumination Theory appreciation thread, so I will just transfer here a modified version of what I said since we are talking about disjointedness. IT is very cohesive for me because of the symmetry of the song.

Section 1: Paradox of the Black Light. Slow, majestic, a bit heavy so it is not yet "illuminated". This is an overture to the un-illuminated sections of the song.

Section 2: The heavy riffing section. At first this seems to be just a wanky instrumental but it actually acts as a bridge between Section 1 and Section 3. This serves an important narrative function once we get to the later sections. Note also that it is mostly a standard rocking beat, with some time signature changes only at the end upon approaching the Live, Die, Kill section.

Section 3: Live, Die Kill. The section poses the questions: What are you willing to live for? to die for? to kill for? It is asking for "an answer that begs to be found". The section has two subsections: the first has lyrics playing to a main riff, the second is the instrumental section that has plenty of time signature changes.

Section 4: Embracing Circle, ambient section. If Live, Die, Kill referred to a more down-to-earth plane of existence, to grounded reality, the Embracing Circle is situated in a transcendental plane. The ambient section is formless and lengthy, which signifies that the questions posed in Live, Die, Kill remain unanswered even in a moment of transcendence and it remains quite unanswered for a long time. The length of the section is important because it serves the narrative function of indicating that illumination or enlightenment does not come easily.

BREAK in the Narrative: Now we start to mirror the previous sections.

Section 5: Embracing Circle, orchestral section. This mirrors Section 4. We are still in the transcendental plane, but unlike Section 4, illumination starts to creep in slowly with the build up of the orchestral part. Illumination climaxes with a moment of enlightenment, signified by the orchestral version of the intro melody. It sort of mirrors Section 1 as well. The end of the orchestral section is an overture to the "illuminated" section of the song, The Pursuit of Truth. It will not serve its proper narrative function if it is placed at the start, because the more heavy-sounding music of Paradox of the Black Light  better fits as an introduction to the "un-illuminated" Live, Die and Kill section. The two overtures share the same melody.

Section 6. The Pursuit of Truth. This mirrors Section 3. The section starts with reverse swells, which signals a return from the transcendental plane to grounded reality. After the moment of enlightenment in The Embracing Circle, the song now has answers to the questions posed in Live, Die, Kill.  What are mothers willing to live, die and kill for? Their children. Husbands are willing to live, die and kill for their wives. Martyrs are willing to live die and kill for the kingdom. And so on and so forth. The Pursuit of Truth answers the questions of Live, Die, Kill. Still mirroring Section 3, the section also has two subsections: the first has lyrics playing to a main riff, the second is the instrumental section that has plenty of time signature changes.

Section 7: The heavy riffing section. This mirrors Section 2. It follows the same structure and uses the same riff! This serves as a bridge between Section 6 and Section 8. While Section 2 bridged the Paradox to the questions, Section 7 bridged the answers to the Paradox. Like Section 2, this section has a lot of wanky instrumentals and plays to a standard rocking beat, with a change in the tempo at the end approaching the Surrender, Trust and Passion section.

Section 8. Surrender, Trust and Passion. And now we have come full circle. This mirrors Section 1. Section 8 is also slow and majestic, but unlike Section 1, it is uplifting because illumination has already been achieved. Section 1 is titled the Paradox of the Black Light, and the lyrics in Section 8 spell out the paradox. And if I overanalyze the lyrics, even the lyrics here are symmetrical. LOL

Introduce with a paradox:
"To really feel the joy in life
You must suffer through the pain"

Surrender: Lyrics refer to illumination by referencing light.
"When you surrender to the light
You can face the darkest days"

Trust: Middle section, still in keeping the visuality of the Illumination Theory, we refer to opening one's eyes.
"If you open up your eyes
And you put your trust in love
On those cold and endless nights
You will never be alone"

Passion: Mirror the Surrender subsection. Lyrics refer to illumination by referencing bright.
"Passion glows within your heart
Like a furnace burning bright"

Mirror the intro. End with a paradox:
"Until you struggle through the dark
You'll never know that you're alive"

And as one more bit of analysis, which may be stretching a bit. Paradox of the Black Light started with a crescendo drum roll. Surrender, Trust and Passion ends with a decrescendo drum roll.

----------
This is how I viewed IT. Which is why I don't think I will really understand how it can be described as disjointed. It is very cohesive not just lyrically but structurally as well. The disjoint that some people feel, I think, is because the narrative of the song is really about transitioning from dark to light but ending up in a paradox where light is in the darkness. There is a deliberate disjointedness, from grounded to transcendent, from fast to slow parts. The transitions serve a narrative function.

God, I wish AVFTTOTW would move me to make this sort of analysis again.

[hefdaddy42]

FYI, that's still one of my favorite posts in DTF history.

[bosk1]

That, and hefdaddy42 facts.

[hefdaddy42]

That, and hefdaddy42 facts.

Which may have been lost to the sands of time.

At one time, I printed them out so I had a hard copy, but I have no idea what happened to them.

[Wim Kruithof]

I commented on this in the Illumination Theory appreciation thread, so I will just transfer here a modified version of what I said since we are talking about disjointedness. IT is very cohesive for me because of the symmetry of the song.

Section 1: Paradox of the Black Light. Slow, majestic, a bit heavy so it is not yet "illuminated". This is an overture to the un-illuminated sections of the song.

Section 2: The heavy riffing section. At first this seems to be just a wanky instrumental but it actually acts as a bridge between Section 1 and Section 3. This serves an important narrative function once we get to the later sections. Note also that it is mostly a standard rocking beat, with some time signature changes only at the end upon approaching the Live, Die, Kill section.

Section 3: Live, Die Kill. The section poses the questions: What are you willing to live for? to die for? to kill for? It is asking for "an answer that begs to be found". The section has two subsections: the first has lyrics playing to a main riff, the second is the instrumental section that has plenty of time signature changes.

Section 4: Embracing Circle, ambient section. If Live, Die, Kill referred to a more down-to-earth plane of existence, to grounded reality, the Embracing Circle is situated in a transcendental plane. The ambient section is formless and lengthy, which signifies that the questions posed in Live, Die, Kill remain unanswered even in a moment of transcendence and it remains quite unanswered for a long time. The length of the section is important because it serves the narrative function of indicating that illumination or enlightenment does not come easily.

BREAK in the Narrative: Now we start to mirror the previous sections.

Section 5: Embracing Circle, orchestral section. This mirrors Section 4. We are still in the transcendental plane, but unlike Section 4, illumination starts to creep in slowly with the build up of the orchestral part. Illumination climaxes with a moment of enlightenment, signified by the orchestral version of the intro melody. It sort of mirrors Section 1 as well. The end of the orchestral section is an overture to the "illuminated" section of the song, The Pursuit of Truth. It will not serve its proper narrative function if it is placed at the start, because the more heavy-sounding music of Paradox of the Black Light  better fits as an introduction to the "un-illuminated" Live, Die and Kill section. The two overtures share the same melody.

Section 6. The Pursuit of Truth. This mirrors Section 3. The section starts with reverse swells, which signals a return from the transcendental plane to grounded reality. After the moment of enlightenment in The Embracing Circle, the song now has answers to the questions posed in Live, Die, Kill.  What are mothers willing to live, die and kill for? Their children. Husbands are willing to live, die and kill for their wives. Martyrs are willing to live die and kill for the kingdom. And so on and so forth. The Pursuit of Truth answers the questions of Live, Die, Kill. Still mirroring Section 3, the section also has two subsections: the first has lyrics playing to a main riff, the second is the instrumental section that has plenty of time signature changes.

Section 7: The heavy riffing section. This mirrors Section 2. It follows the same structure and uses the same riff! This serves as a bridge between Section 6 and Section 8. While Section 2 bridged the Paradox to the questions, Section 7 bridged the answers to the Paradox. Like Section 2, this section has a lot of wanky instrumentals and plays to a standard rocking beat, with a change in the tempo at the end approaching the Surrender, Trust and Passion section.

Section 8. Surrender, Trust and Passion. And now we have come full circle. This mirrors Section 1. Section 8 is also slow and majestic, but unlike Section 1, it is uplifting because illumination has already been achieved. Section 1 is titled the Paradox of the Black Light, and the lyrics in Section 8 spell out the paradox. And if I overanalyze the lyrics, even the lyrics here are symmetrical. LOL

Introduce with a paradox:
"To really feel the joy in life
You must suffer through the pain"

Surrender: Lyrics refer to illumination by referencing light.
"When you surrender to the light
You can face the darkest days"

Trust: Middle section, still in keeping the visuality of the Illumination Theory, we refer to opening one's eyes.
"If you open up your eyes
And you put your trust in love
On those cold and endless nights
You will never be alone"

Passion: Mirror the Surrender subsection. Lyrics refer to illumination by referencing bright.
"Passion glows within your heart
Like a furnace burning bright"

Mirror the intro. End with a paradox:
"Until you struggle through the dark
You'll never know that you're alive"

And as one more bit of analysis, which may be stretching a bit. Paradox of the Black Light started with a crescendo drum roll. Surrender, Trust and Passion ends with a decrescendo drum roll.

This is how I viewed IT. Which is why I don't think I will really understand how it can be described as disjointed. It is very cohesive not just lyrically but structurally as well. The disjoint that some people feel, I think, is because the narrative of the song is really about transitioning from dark to light but ending up in a paradox where light is in the darkness. There is a deliberate disjointedness, from grounded to transcendent, from fast to slow parts. The transitions serve a narrative function.

Completely off-topic here, but this truly is a very nice analyse of one of my all time favorite tracks. Well done.

[Kotowboy]

If this album really is the return-to-classic-DT sound that it's been touted as by some... I think it will be interesting to

compare Portnoy's first five and Mangini's first five albums.

E.g.

When Dream & Day Unite. Images & Words. Awake. Falling Into Infinity. Scenes From A Memory

vs.

A Dramatic Turn Of Events. Dream Theater. The Astonishing. Distance Over Time. A View From The Top Of The World.

[bosk1]

Take this with a grain of salt, but I don't get "return-to-classic-DT sound" vibes at all.  There is a definite comparison to something in the DT family that I could make, but I'll hold off because I don't want anyone to get any preconceived notions about what that means.  I like the new album.  But I wouldn't say I get "classic DT" vibes from it. 

[Kotowboy]

In my head i'm imagining basically Distance Over Time but a little proggier. The Alien to me is Untethered Angel but stretched out a bit.

If it resembles Octavarium as a whole i'll be very happy.


* - I know you didn't say it does but that's what i'm hoping.

[dream75]

If this album really is the return-to-classic-DT sound that it's been touted as by some... I think it will be interesting to

compare Portnoy's first five and Mangini's first five albums.

E.g.

When Dream & Day Unite. Images & Words. Awake. Falling Into Infinity. Scenes From A Memory

vs.

A Dramatic Turn Of Events. Dream Theater. The Astonishing. Distance Over Time. A View From The Top Of The World.

Nobody said it's a return to 90's sound...

[Setlist Scotty]

I don't think he'll mind me reposting his comment on FB, but this is what Rich Wilson said regarding AVFtTotW:

I've been living with the new Dream Theater album now for a couple of weeks. I think I can confidently say it's their finest release in a decade!

Sounds good to me!

[BeatriceNB]

Take this with a grain of salt, but I don't get "return-to-classic-DT sound" vibes at all.  There is a definite comparison to something in the DT family that I could make, but I'll hold off because I don't want anyone to get any preconceived notions about what that means.  I like the new album.  But I wouldn't say I get "classic DT" vibes from it.

We will see how my guess stands when the album releases, but I'll say Train Of Thought.

[gzarruk]

7 weeks to go

[KevShmev]

I don't think he'll mind me reposting his comment on FB, but this is what Rich Wilson said regarding AVFtTotW:

I've been living with the new Dream Theater album now for a couple of weeks. I think I can confidently say it's their finest release in a decade!

Sounds good to me!

Well, IIRC, Rich Wilson has some really strange opinions in the DT book (that broke from the consensus) about their songs and albums, so I will be taking his comments with a grain of salt.

That said, if they manage to top The Astonishing, I will be ecstatic. 

[Glasser]

Being folks opinions are so varied as far as favorite album etc. the new one after many plays truly scopes their entire career style wise IMO. Just because there is no ballad doesn't mean it's  balls out heavy, though there is some heavy riffage on display. It has very catchy hooks as well as very technical shred and epic ambiance scattered across the entire album. It sounds very inspired and fresh. I honestly think all DT fans will gush over it. This album is exactly what I hoped it would be. That said, I'm sure everyone will have their take on it as you all seem very diverse yet passionate on all things DT. I really love this forum and the comradery here. Be prepared to be blown away!!! Seriously!!!

[Peter Mc]

I don't think he'll mind me reposting his comment on FB, but this is what Rich Wilson said regarding AVFtTotW:

I've been living with the new Dream Theater album now for a couple of weeks. I think I can confidently say it's their finest release in a decade!

Sounds good to me!

Well, IIRC, Rich Wilson has some really strange opinions in the DT book (that broke from the consensus) about their songs and albums, so I will be taking his comments with a grain of salt.

That said, if they manage to top The Astonishing, I will be ecstatic. 

Sounds like you have some consensus breaking opinions yourself there.  Assuming you're not being sarcastic of course.

[KevShmev]

I don't think he'll mind me reposting his comment on FB, but this is what Rich Wilson said regarding AVFtTotW:

I've been living with the new Dream Theater album now for a couple of weeks. I think I can confidently say it's their finest release in a decade!

Sounds good to me!

Well, IIRC, Rich Wilson has some really strange opinions in the DT book (that broke from the consensus) about their songs and albums, so I will be taking his comments with a grain of salt.

That said, if they manage to top The Astonishing, I will be ecstatic. 

Sounds like you have some consensus breaking opinions yourself there.  Assuming you're not being sarcastic of course.

Haha, we all do!

It's cool that someone who has heard the album is talking it up, but I am still taking it with a grain of salt.  That is all I am saying. 

[lovethedrake]

Bosk, 

Can you tell us what album you consider to be the last of the "classic dt" period?

[bosk1]

I don't know that I would take a hard line on it, but I think what most folks consider their "classic period" is I&W - SFAM.  Even though there is a lot of diversity in that period, I think you can definitely say, looking back, that there is somewhat of a defining sound to that era of the band, and that is what produced much of what people would consider to be the true DT "classics." 

So, back to the discussion at hand, I don't find that the new album sounds a lot like that era, IMO.

[TAC]

Oh great...now a pagefull of

[lovethedrake]

I don't know that I would take a hard line on it, but I think what most folks consider their "classic period" is I&W - SFAM.  Even though there is a lot of diversity in that period, I think you can definitely say, looking back, that there is somewhat of a defining sound to that era of the band, and that is what produced much of what people would consider to be the true DT "classics." 

So, back to the discussion at hand, I don't find that the new album sounds a lot like that era, IMO.

Thanks, that's what I was hoping you would say and I'm holding out hope that six degrees was the album you're referencing.  But I'll patiently wait until the release.

[gzarruk]

I obviously haven't listened to the album yet, but judging by the track lengths and our first taste with The Alien, this sounds more like a "return" to the best elements of DT from the 2000's.

[Progmetty]

Does anybody know if the writing was finished on this album before Terminal Velocity and LTE3 were written?

[gzarruk]

Does anybody know if the writing was finished on this album before Terminal Velocity and LTE3 were written?

Both TV and LTE3 were written and recorded before AVFTTOTW.

[IDontNotDoThings]

Does anybody know if the writing was finished on this album before Terminal Velocity and LTE3 were written?

If you check the OP, the band hadn't even started writing View until October 2020. LTE3 had already finished recording before then (August 2020), & TV was already released before then.

[dream75]

From what I understand it is similar to the music of the period 2002-2009 but played last albums style.  That is a mix between SDOIT, SC, ADTOE and D / T

[Kotowboy]

I've been living with the new Dream Theater album now for a couple of weeks. I think I can confidently say it's their finest release in a decade!

So it's their best album since A Dramatic Turn of Events ? Even though Distance Over Time was better ? I *hope* it's better than Black Clouds and Systematic....