DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)

[darkshade]

It's too fast to pick up the slight anomaly of being 3:2 of 7 that fits over 4 of the main 7 notes with 3 of the real 7/16 notes left for the end of the fill.

Oh my god who cares.  This is literally my only problem with mangini. He never once has talked about how a song FEELS. It's always about the polyrhythms and time signatures.

Thing with Mike is that this stuff comes out naturally for him. It's mindblowing really. But it's not like he targets to play over complicated stuff, his natural feel is gravitating towards this. Something he is excited about and explaining in a more technical way is the way he communicates.

Take Illumination Theory for example. There's a part where he plays the melody of the riff on the toms while he's playing a rhythm at the same time. If explained technically, it will sound like it's all about the polyrhythm and technique. But it's not, it's just the way he interprets his parts and how they work in the context of a song.

Mangini has become the best example for me for the old saying "you can play the most complicated music ever conceived, but will it sound good?"

In general it sounds great to me, but of course anyone can enjoy things differently.

Different strokes, but I always found MP was a musician who could make complex music sound accessible to the average ear.
MM makes complex music sound.... complex. For the sake of it. No groove behind it. When he sticks to a groove or beat, it's very uninteresting to me.

[darkshade]

It's too fast to pick up the slight anomaly of being 3:2 of 7 that fits over 4 of the main 7 notes with 3 of the real 7/16 notes left for the end of the fill.

Oh my god who cares.  This is literally my only problem with mangini. He never once has talked about how a song FEELS. It's always about the polyrhythms and time signatures.

Thing with Mike is that this stuff comes out naturally for him. It's mindblowing really. But it's not like he targets to play over complicated stuff, his natural feel is gravitating towards this. Something he is excited about and explaining in a more technical way is the way he communicates.

Take Illumination Theory for example. There's a part where he plays the melody of the riff on the toms while he's playing a rhythm at the same time. If explained technically, it will sound like it's all about the polyrhythm and technique. But it's not, it's just the way he interprets his parts and how they work in the context of a song.

Mangini has become the best example for me for the old saying "you can play the most complicated music ever conceived, but will it sound good?"

To you maybe. But to me, it does sound good and actually I enjoy his drumming parts more so than MP, because of him playing along to different instruments and rhythms. It's a really different style than usual for drumming. And I like it and enjoy it. It compliments the music.

MM has his moments for me, but overall it's either overly complex sounding for the sake of being overly complex, and doesn't add anything to the SONG,
or when he does lay back for a bit, nothing he does sticks out to me, it all sounds like standard rock drumming that could have been anyone behind the kit.
MP could be like that at times on both points as well, but not as often to my ears.
I also don't like how MM's drums sound on DT studio albums, live, his kit sounds much better.
ADTOE sounded decent, but way too low in the mix.

[Ben_Jamin]

It's too fast to pick up the slight anomaly of being 3:2 of 7 that fits over 4 of the main 7 notes with 3 of the real 7/16 notes left for the end of the fill.

Oh my god who cares.  This is literally my only problem with mangini. He never once has talked about how a song FEELS. It's always about the polyrhythms and time signatures.

Thing with Mike is that this stuff comes out naturally for him. It's mindblowing really. But it's not like he targets to play over complicated stuff, his natural feel is gravitating towards this. Something he is excited about and explaining in a more technical way is the way he communicates.

Take Illumination Theory for example. There's a part where he plays the melody of the riff on the toms while he's playing a rhythm at the same time. If explained technically, it will sound like it's all about the polyrhythm and technique. But it's not, it's just the way he interprets his parts and how they work in the context of a song.

Mangini has become the best example for me for the old saying "you can play the most complicated music ever conceived, but will it sound good?"

To you maybe. But to me, it does sound good and actually I enjoy his drumming parts more so than MP, because of him playing along to different instruments and rhythms. It's a really different style than usual for drumming. And I like it and enjoy it. It compliments the music.

MM has his moments for me, but overall it's either overly complex sounding for the sake of being overly complex, and doesn't add anything to the SONG,
or when he does lay back for a bit, nothing he does sticks out to me, it all sounds like standard rock drumming that could have been anyone behind the kit.
MP could be like that at times on both points as well, but not as often to my ears.
I also don't like how MM's drums sound on DT studio albums, live, his kit sounds much better.
ADTOE sounded decent, but way too low in the mix.

To me, it doesn't seem like Mangini is doing complex drumming for the sake of it being complex. It seems as if he is finally able to utilize his full playing style and how he has viewed drumming. To be able to be himself as a drummer and let loose. From the audition drummer documentary, it seemed as if he really wanted this gig for that reason of being able to have an outlet to be himself as a drummer and be able to incorporate those complex drumming parts he comes up with into a recorded song.

Dream Theater allowed Mangini to do just that. And what he does is an entirely different frame of mind than what Portnoy is as a drummer.

For me, it's the complexity of his drumming that I like and enjoy immensely.

My only gripe with the band currently, is that they play to a click. I would love to see them go free-roaming. But as they enjoy having the big productions, that went out the door.

Although, I do wonder if the reason for playing to a click also has to do with being an easy reliable way to form a setlist, and create one that won't go over curfew where the band has to pay the venue a curfew fee for going over time. A way for them to see how much time they have to play, to rest in between songs, and say goodbye before having to leave the venue. Having the click keeps everything in time so they won't accidentally overplay by playing a song a bit too slow, an now they have to rush the last couple of songs. 

[Wim Kruithof]

To me, it doesn't seem like Mangini is doing complex drumming for the sake of it being complex. It seems as if he is finally able to utilize his full playing style and how he has viewed drumming. To be able to be himself as a drummer and let loose. From the audition drummer documentary, it seemed as if he really wanted this gig for that reason of being able to have an outlet to be himself as a drummer and be able to incorporate those complex drumming parts he comes up with into a recorded song.

Dream Theater allowed Mangini to do just that. And what he does is an entirely different frame of mind than what Portnoy is as a drummer.

For me, it's the complexity of his drumming that I like and enjoy immensely.

You've stretched my thoughts out perfectly. Exactly what Mangini does to me as well. Technically brilliant and with an attitude that fits so well in the band.

[Ben_Jamin]

To me, it doesn't seem like Mangini is doing complex drumming for the sake of it being complex. It seems as if he is finally able to utilize his full playing style and how he has viewed drumming. To be able to be himself as a drummer and let loose. From the audition drummer documentary, it seemed as if he really wanted this gig for that reason of being able to have an outlet to be himself as a drummer and be able to incorporate those complex drumming parts he comes up with into a recorded song.

Dream Theater allowed Mangini to do just that. And what he does is an entirely different frame of mind than what Portnoy is as a drummer.

For me, it's the complexity of his drumming that I like and enjoy immensely.

You've stretched my thoughts out perfectly. Exactly what Mangini does to me as well. Technically brilliant and with an attitude that fits so well in the band.

I also found it neat how much control Mangini has over the click as well. He meets up with the pre-production team during rehearsals to sync the screens and the light show with the songs. It's neat how the lights and video are timed to sync along with the click track. And I wonder if the band plays along to that during rehearsals, so they can fine tune any parts that Mangini may have set too fast or too slow. For all the members to be comfortable with playing their parts.

I am sure, JP sort of just dealt with MP speeding up sections to the point where it makes his guitar parts more difficult to play, JM too. 

[KevShmev]

Am I the only one who doesn't care about the whole 8-string thing?

Nope. To me, it's like, Oh Mangini has a 17th drum.

I'm with you both.  Couldn't care less.  Well, actually, I could care less because most of the 7- and 8- string work I've heard is not my bag.   Six strings were enough for Ritchie Blackmore, Michael Schenker and Randy Rhoads, so more strings isn't better in my book.

I am with all of you guys.  I don't care about 8-string guitars or anything like that. I don't even care about DT's chops at this point, which is why any comments any of them make about their playing, time sigs, fancy rhythms or whatever make me yawn.  Just give me good songs. 

[Peter Mc]

Some of you talk like Portnoy and Mangini are chalk and cheese.  I guarantee you no one but the most hardcore DT fan even notices the difference, they are so similar in style.  If you watch all these online reactors, no one notices the drummer has changed.  The reason being that it's just the drummer, a backing musician, not the singer or the guitar player or even the keyboard player.  They swapped one crazy technical drummer who ridiculously overplays for another.

That's not to say people who are hardcore DT fans can't have their favourite and do notice the difference.  Let's not lose sight of the fact though that these are minor differences in the grand scheme of things.  If you played anyone an MP era DT song side by side with a MM era song, 999,999 people out of million would not say say "Hang on a minute! Did they change the drummer?"

[BeatriceNB]

It's too fast to pick up the slight anomaly of being 3:2 of 7 that fits over 4 of the main 7 notes with 3 of the real 7/16 notes left for the end of the fill.

Oh my god who cares.  This is literally my only problem with mangini. He never once has talked about how a song FEELS. It's always about the polyrhythms and time signatures.

It's almost that because of the subjective, culture-based experience of music, feeling is not a thing. It's just a myth by bad musicians to justify their laziness and illiteracy. Theory analysis are the closest thing to any "objective" analysis of music, as a tool of teaching (and yes, I'm aware that music theory and its perception are bound to the subjective experience of humans). For people who actually care, Mangini doing rundowns of his ideas and compositional process is the closest that we have to seeing what is inside his mind when playing, saying "this grooves and has FEELING brooo" is useless information.

I don't want to look like a snob who only cares about theory, not at all, and many of my musical heroes don't have an extensive knowledge of music theory (or any at all). But Mangini was a teacher and one of the best music schools, and has an impressive grasp of complex concepts and can execute them flawlessly, it would be a waste if he only talked using meaningless terms.

[AboutToCrash]

MM is the first drummer in a long time that's made me genuinely excited to hear what he does on an album.

[porcacultor]

I want to believe that people are annoyed with what Mangini said because they cannot listen to what he's describing yet. Barring that, it's such a strange thing to hang up on: the guy's just excited with his work! And so am I reading his sentiments on it.

As much as people try to paint this weird portrait of him being all technique and Portnoy being some kind of feel king, the reality is that both do very well in both "fields" -- tell me with straight face that Room 137 doesn't groove! And I'm sure Portnoy's plenty proud of the complex time signatures he's nailed over the years, even if he has a more wordless, intuitive approach to them.

[jammindude]

It seems like a lot of people forget that there some people in the world for whom the "feel" and the "passion" for what they are doing IS wrapped up in the difficulty of it.

It's like some of you think that a mathematician is incapable of being deeply passionate and (gasp) "feel" something very deeply emotional about math. And that passion can be expressed in what they are doing.

[KevShmev]

I have seen a few interviews/podcasts lately where Portnoy has dismissed the idea that he is a technical drummer, so I think he likes the idea of being viewed as the "feel" drummer in DT (and it makes the "Mangini is a robot" narrative seem stronger, which I am sure he gets a kick out of), but let's be serious, he is obviously one of the most technical rock or metal drummers ever.  Just because he might not be a Mangini or Minnemann when it comes to technique doesn't mean that he still isn't in the top percentile when it comes to technical playing as far as rock or metal drummers are concerned.

[Dedalus]

It seems like a lot of people forget that there some people in the world for whom the "feel" and the "passion" for what they are doing IS wrapped up in the difficulty of it.

It's like some of you think that a mathematician is incapable of being deeply passionate and (gasp) "feel" something very deeply emotional about math. And that passion can be expressed in what they are doing.

Exactly. The worst thing is that what you mentioned should be obvious, but it isn't.

I love how people feel they have the right to judge the actions of others as unfeeling (and this is very common in music). They are HUMAN BEINGS doing some activity and someone comes along and thinks he/she is capable of dehumanizing the other person, thinking that there is no feeling there. Who does "the judge" think he/she is to have that power? It is an absolute arrogance!

[Dedalus]

Some of you talk like Portnoy and Mangini are chalk and cheese.  I guarantee you no one but the most hardcore DT fan even notices the difference, they are so similar in style.  If you watch all these online reactors, no one notices the drummer has changed.  The reason being that it's just the drummer, a backing musician, not the singer or the guitar player or even the keyboard player.  They swapped one crazy technical drummer who ridiculously overplays for another.

That's not to say people who are hardcore DT fans can't have their favourite and do notice the difference.  Let's not lose sight of the fact though that these are minor differences in the grand scheme of things.  If you played anyone an MP era DT song side by side with a MM era song, 999,999 people out of million would not say say "Hang on a minute! Did they change the drummer?"

Exactly. As much as each drummer has their personality, their style, their preferences etc... they are still drummers. 

Take one of the most iconic of all time: Neil Peart.
I wouldn't have any problem if Rush had moved on with another drummer. Zero problem. 
But a Rush without Geddy Lee? Not fucking way! 

[fischermasamune]

I have seen a few interviews/podcasts lately where Portnoy has dismissed the idea that he is a technical drummer, so I think he likes the idea of being viewed as the "feel" drummer in DT (and it makes the "Mangini is a robot" narrative seem stronger, which I am sure he gets a kick out of), but let's be serious, he is obviously one of the most technical rock or metal drummers ever.  Just because he might not be a Mangini or Minnemann when it comes to technique doesn't mean that he still isn't in the top percentile when it comes to technical playing as far as rock or metal drummers are concerned.

To accentuate that, around the years 1994-2000 a few DT members released teaching material on their instruments. From the bits I saw from Portnoy, he is also: "Okay, we have this section in 7/4 with the downbeat then the 7/4 with the upbeat then we play 6 8th notes and then we repeat but inverting the timing of the cymbal to make it interesting blah-blah-blah" that maybe is not as complicated as the patterns Mangini talks and writes about but highlights that at least at that time being a drummer with the command of complex time signatures, anything but dismissive of the techniques.

[Progmetty]

Ouch! I'm guessing we're gonna stick to "DT15" when referring to this album..

I don't like the artwork, I guess I'm not the first one to say that.

I thought they hit a sweet spot with the song durations on D/T but I guess they're reverting. At least the folks who wanted longer songs are happy, there was some disgruntled folks on the last album cycle due to short songs.

Otherwise hooray for new DT music! DT15 era, here we go!

[GasparXR]

Ouch! I'm guessing we're gonna stick to "DT15" when referring to this album..

I don't like the artwork, I guess I'm not the first one to say that.

I thought they hit a sweet spot with the song durations on D/T but I guess they're reverting. At least the folks who wanted longer songs are happy, there was some disgruntled folks on the last album cycle due to short songs.

Otherwise hooray for new DT music! DT15 era, here we go!

I think they got really good at writing shorter* songs starting with S/T, whose only song above 8 mins was IT. Keeping things concise without cutting too much out of a song got added to their list of things they can do well with their music. I feel like most of their shorter songs for a long time were a lot closer to a traditional song structure, which is fine, but I liked how they started utilizing the weirder song structures in short form, like in PBD. It's barely longer than Pull Me Under, which had a more 'normal' structure as far as DT songs go, but PBD feels like a song that would have been 12+ minutes on most past albums. I'm also fine with longer songs again though.

*"shorter" songs meaning roughly 7 or less minutes of course lol

[Bertie_Wooster]

It's too fast to pick up the slight anomaly of being 3:2 of 7 that fits over 4 of the main 7 notes with 3 of the real 7/16 notes left for the end of the fill.

Mangini uses a click because he says time slows down for him when he is playing
Mangini said that his perception of time gets messed up when he comes plays live she he uses a click for accuracy.

Oh my god who cares.  This is literally my only problem with mangini. He never once has talked about how a song FEELS. It's always about the polyrhythms and time signatures.

Thing with Mike is that this stuff comes out naturally for him. It's mindblowing really. But it's not like he targets to play over complicated stuff, his natural feel is gravitating towards this. Something he is excited about and explaining in a more technical way is the way he communicates.

Take Illumination Theory for example. There's a part where he plays the melody of the riff on the toms while he's playing a rhythm at the same time. If explained technically, it will sound like it's all about the polyrhythm and technique. But it's not, it's just the way he interprets his parts and how they work in the context of a song.

Mangini has become the best example for me for the old saying "you can play the most complicated music ever conceived, but will it sound good?"

To you maybe. But to me, it does sound good and actually I enjoy his drumming parts more so than MP, because of him playing along to different instruments and rhythms. It's a really different style than usual for drumming. And I like it and enjoy it. It compliments the music.

MM has his moments for me, but overall it's either overly complex sounding for the sake of being overly complex, and doesn't add anything to the SONG,
or when he does lay back for a bit, nothing he does sticks out to me, it all sounds like standard rock drumming that could have been anyone behind the kit.
MP could be like that at times on both points as well, but not as often to my ears.
I also don't like how MM's drums sound on DT studio albums, live, his kit sounds much better.
ADTOE sounded decent, but way too low in the mix.

To me, it doesn't seem like Mangini is doing complex drumming for the sake of it being complex. It seems as if he is finally able to utilize his full playing style and how he has viewed drumming. To be able to be himself as a drummer and let loose. From the audition drummer documentary, it seemed as if he really wanted this gig for that reason of being able to have an outlet to be himself as a drummer and be able to incorporate those complex drumming parts he comes up with into a recorded song.

Dream Theater allowed Mangini to do just that. And what he does is an entirely different frame of mind than what Portnoy is as a drummer.

For me, it's the complexity of his drumming that I like and enjoy immensely.

My only gripe with the band currently, is that they play to a click. I would love to see them go free-roaming. But as they enjoy having the big productions, that went out the door.

Although, I do wonder if the reason for playing to a click also has to do with being an easy reliable way to form a setlist, and create one that won't go over curfew where the band has to pay the venue a curfew fee for going over time. A way for them to see how much time they have to play, to rest in between songs, and say goodbye before having to leave the venue. Having the click keeps everything in time so they won't accidentally overplay by playing a song a bit too slow, an now they have to rush the last couple of songs. 

[Peter Mc]

I agree with some of this in that, in the past some songs have gone on longer than they needed to and it has been good on the last few albums that they were more concise.  On the other hand though, there have been songs on recent albums that I wish were longer.  There's songs that blast through a lot of cool ideas in a matter of seconds and just throw them away.  There's cool melodic moments or riffs that they play for 10 seconds and I wish they'd revisit later in the song but they just move on to the next bit and never come back to it.  I'm hoping the longer songs will allow them to explore and expand on their musical ideas more instead of squeezing lots of them into one short song and kind of wasting the opportunity to showcase them more.

PS, this is in reply to Gaspar's post two places above.

[KevShmev]

I have seen a few interviews/podcasts lately where Portnoy has dismissed the idea that he is a technical drummer, so I think he likes the idea of being viewed as the "feel" drummer in DT (and it makes the "Mangini is a robot" narrative seem stronger, which I am sure he gets a kick out of), but let's be serious, he is obviously one of the most technical rock or metal drummers ever.  Just because he might not be a Mangini or Minnemann when it comes to technique doesn't mean that he still isn't in the top percentile when it comes to technical playing as far as rock or metal drummers are concerned.

To accentuate that, around the years 1994-2000 a few DT members released teaching material on their instruments. From the bits I saw from Portnoy, he is also: "Okay, we have this section in 7/4 with the downbeat then the 7/4 with the upbeat then we play 6 8th notes and then we repeat but inverting the timing of the cymbal to make it interesting blah-blah-blah" that maybe is not as complicated as the patterns Mangini talks and writes about but highlights that at least at that time being a drummer with the command of complex time signatures, anything but dismissive of the techniques.

Well said.  There are tons of rock drummers out there who would be lost trying to play something like The Dance of Eternity, yet Portnoy and Mangini both make it look easy.  Reminds me of the Matt Damon character in Good Will Hunting - they can both sit down and just play.

[Stadler]

I'm a drummer and i've done a music / theory degree and I don't care about time signatures and polyrhythms. I care about the music and production and to a lesser extent the lyrics.

If you went out for a meal - you wouldn't want the waiter telling you EXACTLY how the chef made it - and how many grams of each spice and seasoning he used and how long each

piece of the meal was cooked for and at what exact temperature and why. You'd be like great - how does it taste ?

I know this is going to come as a shock, but here it goes... there are other people in the world.

I find that a little amusing given the reaction by some to the discussion about that guy that gave his review and the subsequent passive aggressive sarcasm in the "Mangini Speaks" thread about those that didn't take it as gospel.   What's good for the goose....  Seems as if the "there's other people in the world" only REALLY flies when the viewpoint is in agreement with a few who can't possibly fathom anything less than full on  to whatever is being said/offered by the band or its members.   Funny enough, even some of the people being dismissed - like me - are actually STILL mostly  .  I'm HERE (at a DT forum, in a DT thread) aren't I?

[Stadler]

It's too fast to pick up the slight anomaly of being 3:2 of 7 that fits over 4 of the main 7 notes with 3 of the real 7/16 notes left for the end of the fill.

Oh my god who cares.  This is literally my only problem with mangini. He never once has talked about how a song FEELS. It's always about the polyrhythms and time signatures.

It's almost that because of the subjective, culture-based experience of music, feeling is not a thing. It's just a myth by bad musicians to justify their laziness and illiteracy. Theory analysis are the closest thing to any "objective" analysis of music, as a tool of teaching (and yes, I'm aware that music theory and its perception are bound to the subjective experience of humans). For people who actually care, Mangini doing rundowns of his ideas and compositional process is the closest that we have to seeing what is inside his mind when playing, saying "this grooves and has FEELING brooo" is useless information.

I don't want to look like a snob who only cares about theory, not at all, and many of my musical heroes don't have an extensive knowledge of music theory (or any at all). But Mangini was a teacher and one of the best music schools, and has an impressive grasp of complex concepts and can execute them flawlessly, it would be a waste if he only talked using meaningless terms.

It's not useless though, and that's an important point in this conversation that seems to be repeatedly missed.  You can attribute it to whoever you want - me or Mangini or Paul Stanley or any of the thousands of people that have said it - but "I like what I like".   For me personally, there's very little of this "objective" stuff - complexity, song lengths, who wrote it - that make a difference in what I end to listening to on the regular.  I'm not that one dimensional, and most humans aren't*.  I like things with deep theory, I like things that are nothing BUT feel, I hate things with theory and I hate things that are nothing but feel.  It's not about EITHER of those things for some people.  This idea that it's a binary two-variable equation - one or the other - is the REAL myth.   

In my opinion that's why bands like Led Zeppelin and The Beatles and Pink Floyd are still talked about; they didn't make these distinctions; you had complex symphonies, if you will (The Song Remains The Same, A Day In The Life, Echoes) alongside simple "Squeeze the lemon, baby" blues and "Love Me Do" skiffle and "Alan's Breakfast" musique concrète, and all that mattered is that one got lost in the music.

* I'm not suggesting you or anyone else IS one-dimensional; I would ask you - and be honest - did you make a CONSCIOUS decision to like what you like, or did it really happen that you liked it, you were drawn to it, and figured out why later?   Is there ANYTHING musically you like/listen to that doesn't fit the set pattern?   

[Stadler]

It seems like a lot of people forget that there some people in the world for whom the "feel" and the "passion" for what they are doing IS wrapped up in the difficulty of it.

It's like some of you think that a mathematician is incapable of being deeply passionate and (gasp) "feel" something very deeply emotional about math. And that passion can be expressed in what they are doing.

Exactly. The worst thing is that what you mentioned should be obvious, but it isn't.

I love how people feel they have the right to judge the actions of others as unfeeling (and this is very common in music). They are HUMAN BEINGS doing some activity and someone comes along and thinks he/she is capable of dehumanizing the other person, thinking that there is no feeling there. Who does "the judge" think he/she is to have that power? It is an absolute arrogance!

Haha, you mean like some of the people here seem to feel they have the right to judge posts/opinion here as "disrespectful" and off topic and what not?   I agree: absolute arrogance!     

(I kid, sort of, but not really.)

[Stadler]

Question for the drummers here:  When you play to a click, with the technology today can you adjust the time in real time on stage? Whether during a song or in between songs?   Or is it a decision indelibly made prior to the show, and you live with it?

[hunnus2000]

Question for the drummers here:  When you play to a click, with the technology today can you adjust the time in real time on stage? Whether during a song or in between songs?   Or is it a decision indelibly made prior to the show, and you live with it?

If you were going to do this, then why use a click? 

[Dedalus]

It seems like a lot of people forget that there some people in the world for whom the "feel" and the "passion" for what they are doing IS wrapped up in the difficulty of it.

It's like some of you think that a mathematician is incapable of being deeply passionate and (gasp) "feel" something very deeply emotional about math. And that passion can be expressed in what they are doing.

Exactly. The worst thing is that what you mentioned should be obvious, but it isn't.

I love how people feel they have the right to judge the actions of others as unfeeling (and this is very common in music). They are HUMAN BEINGS doing some activity and someone comes along and thinks he/she is capable of dehumanizing the other person, thinking that there is no feeling there. Who does "the judge" think he/she is to have that power? It is an absolute arrogance!

Haha, you mean like some of the people here seem to feel they have the right to judge posts/opinion here as "disrespectful" and off topic and what not?   I agree: absolute arrogance!     

(I kid, sort of, but not really.)

Haha, but the really important question is: who the hell am I? 

[TheCountOfNYC]

Question for the drummers here:  When you play to a click, with the technology today can you adjust the time in real time on stage? Whether during a song or in between songs?   Or is it a decision indelibly made prior to the show, and you live with it?

The point of the click is to keep everything consistent from night to night, so if you're using one, making on the fly adjustments would be contradictory to the entire reason you're using it. The click is a personal preference thing and IMO it should be up to the drummer if they want to use it. I've only ever played to a click in a quasi-live setting once, and never at an actual gig. My band was shooting a promo video, and we played to a click to make sure the tempos were consistent so all of the shots lined up. I'm the bass player in my band, and I loved how locked in we were with the click, but most of the drummers I know hate playing to a click live and at the end of the day, the drummer is responsible for the feel so if they aren't comfortable it'll throw the whole band off.

[IDontNotDoThings]

It's too fast to pick up the slight anomaly of being 3:2 of 7 that fits over 4 of the main 7 notes with 3 of the real 7/16 notes left for the end of the fill.

Oh my god who cares.  This is literally my only problem with mangini. He never once has talked about how a song FEELS. It's always about the polyrhythms and time signatures.

It's almost that because of the subjective, culture-based experience of music, feeling is not a thing. It's just a myth by bad musicians to justify their laziness and illiteracy. Theory analysis are the closest thing to any "objective" analysis of music, as a tool of teaching (and yes, I'm aware that music theory and its perception are bound to the subjective experience of humans). For people who actually care, Mangini doing rundowns of his ideas and compositional process is the closest that we have to seeing what is inside his mind when playing, saying "this grooves and has FEELING brooo" is useless information.

I don't want to look like a snob who only cares about theory, not at all, and many of my musical heroes don't have an extensive knowledge of music theory (or any at all). But Mangini was a teacher and one of the best music schools, and has an impressive grasp of complex concepts and can execute them flawlessly, it would be a waste if he only talked using meaningless terms.

It's not useless though, and that's an important point in this conversation that seems to be repeatedly missed.  You can attribute it to whoever you want - me or Mangini or Paul Stanley or any of the thousands of people that have said it - but "I like what I like".   For me personally, there's very little of this "objective" stuff - complexity, song lengths, who wrote it - that make a difference in what I end to listening to on the regular.  I'm not that one dimensional, and most humans aren't*.  I like things with deep theory, I like things that are nothing BUT feel, I hate things with theory and I hate things that are nothing but feel.  It's not about EITHER of those things for some people.  This idea that it's a binary two-variable equation - one or the other - is the REAL myth.   

In my opinion that's why bands like Led Zeppelin and The Beatles and Pink Floyd are still talked about; they didn't make these distinctions; you had complex symphonies, if you will (The Song Remains The Same, A Day In The Life, Echoes) alongside simple "Squeeze the lemon, baby" blues and "Love Me Do" skiffle and "Alan's Breakfast" musique concrète, and all that mattered is that one got lost in the music.

* I'm not suggesting you or anyone else IS one-dimensional; I would ask you - and be honest - did you make a CONSCIOUS decision to like what you like, or did it really happen that you liked it, you were drawn to it, and figured out why later?   Is there ANYTHING musically you like/listen to that doesn't fit the set pattern?

I think you missed the point. There's nothing wrong with having an emotional connection to music that isn't theory-heavy (see highlighted part), but simply saying "this has x feeling" is less useful in describing music we haven't heard yet, because feeling isn't set in stone & depends on the person - it isn't inherent to the music. On the other hand, whether you care about theory or not, theory tells us more about the music because it's more objective & can hone in on little details.

As she said, it would be a waste to have the theory knowledge & still insist on exclusively using vague & subjective terms (which they haven't even stopped doing alongside the theory stuff, so it's not like anything is lost).

[TM172003]

God I hope a single comes out soon.

[DoctorAction]

It seems like a lot of people forget that there some people in the world for whom the "feel" and the "passion" for what they are doing IS wrapped up in the difficulty of it.

It's like some of you think that a mathematician is incapable of being deeply passionate and (gasp) "feel" something very deeply emotional about math. And that passion can be expressed in what they are doing.

Exactly. The worst thing is that what you mentioned should be obvious, but it isn't.

I love how people feel they have the right to judge the actions of others as unfeeling (and this is very common in music). They are HUMAN BEINGS doing some activity and someone comes along and thinks he/she is capable of dehumanizing the other person, thinking that there is no feeling there. Who does "the judge" think he/she is to have that power? It is an absolute arrogance!

Haha, you mean like some of the people here seem to feel they have the right to judge posts/opinion here as "disrespectful" and off topic and what not?   I agree: absolute arrogance!     

(I kid, sort of, but not really.)

I don't know if you were referring to my post judging kotowboy's "ong who cares" as disrespectful. If so, I think it's much easier to deem that as disrespectful to MM compared to the "this part has feel/is purely technical" discussions. They're not even in the same ball park, afaic.

But, hey. I'm excited about the album. I'm excited that MM sounds excited.

I'm unexcited by the heavy judgement that's taken place wrt the art and MM's post, tbh. Big buzzkill for me. It's a long time til October. Think I'll be staying away from this thread for a while. Not sure I can stand the inevitable shitshow that will take place after publicity shots etc are revealed.

[Kotowboy]

I have seen a few interviews/podcasts lately where Portnoy has dismissed the idea that he is a technical drummer, so I think he likes the idea of being viewed as the "feel" drummer in DT (and it makes the "Mangini is a robot" narrative seem stronger, which I am sure he gets a kick out of), but let's be serious, he is obviously one of the most technical rock or metal drummers ever.  Just because he might not be a Mangini or Minnemann when it comes to technique doesn't mean that he still isn't in the top percentile when it comes to technical playing as far as rock or metal drummers are concerned.

MP is an incredibly tight drummer but is actually quite limited technique wise. He definitely has his own recognisable style - but also he does tend to rely on his bag of tricks.

[TAC]

So I'm not responding to Doctor Action's post directly, as I've been meaning to post this for a few days but...


The last couple of weeks, I have been suffering from Grumpyoldmanitis. Picking on poor little Simone Biles and Hugh Syme.

If I'm being honest, I actually really like the cover of the new album. I love the use of the Viewer, especially in the tour poster.

So I would like to publicly apologize for being a dick.

[erwinrafael]

Mike Mangini posted on his Facebook page which he mostly uses to promote his drum lessons and tutorials. That is why he sounded technical. He has drummers in mind as the audience so he talked in terms of what would make drummers excited.

Mind you, he said in subsequent comments that he came up with the fill not based on numbers but based on a shape he saw his movements taking in the drum set. He only broke it down in numbers afterwards.

[Ben_Jamin]

Mike Mangini posted on his Facebook page which he mostly uses to promote his drum lessons and tutorials. That is why he sounded technical. He has drummers in mind as the audience so he talked in terms of what would make drummers excited.

Mind you, he said in subsequent comments that he came up with the fill not based on numbers but based on a shape he saw his movements taking in the drum set. He only broke it down in numbers afterwards.

I find it neat how he sees patterns and shapes in music. And found a way to describe these patterns and shapes.

Yup, his target audience wasn't specifically for Dream Theater fans.

[jayvee3]

Ouch! I'm guessing we're gonna stick to "DT15" when referring to this album..

I don't like the artwork, I guess I'm not the first one to say that.

I thought they hit a sweet spot with the song durations on D/T but I guess they're reverting. At least the folks who wanted longer songs are happy, there was some disgruntled folks on the last album cycle due to short songs.

Otherwise hooray for new DT music! DT15 era, here we go!

With all due respect, reverting to what exactly? DoT had some more concise songs, but every album has been completely different, from experimental, to concept, to rock opera to you name it. Many albums have a bit of a theme and there are song lengths all over the place. I don't think it's a case of "we found a sweet spot", now we'll just go with that". I think the very nature of prog is to do things differently