2019 set list and tour discussion (**KEEP ALL SPOILERS HERE**)

[nobloodyname]

Take it from me, that's not what DT actually sound like when you're there.

And yet, in my experience, after about 25 shows since 2003 (not quite as many as you, and in a shorter time frame), I would absolutely say that generally is how DT sounds live. Even at the Score show. Generally a very good performance by JLB but not the sparkling, pristine rendition you hear in the official recording.

This doesn't stop me going to their shows (although I see far fewer now due to non-rotating setlists), and I'll be there at both London shows, too. First night in the second row, second night in the front row. Got lucky there!

Scott's bang on the money. The recording is the recording. It's the listener's absence of personal investment that's different.

[Volante99]

Yeah I'll second this. For better or worse, cell phones don't really reflect live sound. Any type of recording for that matter.

Without getting into a big argument over this (which has already been done ad nauseam elsewhere), recordings actually do reflect the live sound accurately. It's your perception when you're at the show that is not necessarily accurate because of the super loud volume, the adrenaline running thru your veins from excitement to be at the show, etc. So while you and others might think JL was flawless (or nearly so) at a show, a recording - whether done with high-end mics and digital set up or a cheap cassette recorder with the built in mic - is going to give you an accurate representation of how well he (and the rest of the band) did that particular night.

Don't get me wrong - nothing replaces being at the actual show and taking in the whole experience, which everyone should do if at all possible. But it's a misnomer to say that recordings "don't really reflect live sound."

Semantics.
I think we're both right it just different ideas on "accurate". You're talking accuracy regarding a bands technical performance. I'm talking about accuracy of live SOUND.

Yes a recording is a recording. LaBrie is off pitch no matter what. But a cell phone recording through a cell phone speaker (both of which will also color the sound) is not going to be an accurate reflection of standing in front of a 100db loudspeaker in a 2000 seat theatre hall. What you're actually going to hear and perceive. Under those conditions (in my experience) LaBrie sounds fine. And that's not just adrenaline or "personal investment", or just being drowned out by the rest of the band for that matter. It's what you're hearing, the timbre, frequencies, acoustics- it's all going to affect how the band sounds.

[nobloodyname]

I have no idea what your ears hear, of course, but when I see Dream Theater live, I genuinely cringe several times each show, so far wide of the mark is James on multiple occasions.

But here's the thing. I still would never want to see him ousted. He's the voice of Dream Theater, simple as that.

[Bentower]

I agree wholeheartedly with nobloodyname's stance there.

During the Helsinki show a few weeks ago, James sang relatively well. I was happy with him keeping the shrieking notes to a bare minimum. That said, he was rather pitchy, at times overwhelmingly so. Much to my surprise he nailed Untethered Angel, but then started to wane as the show proceeded.

I felt it was nice touch how he brought some character inflections from The Astonishing over to this version of Scenes from a Memory, for example in the beginning of Finally Free.

[KidInTheDark666]

I agree wholeheartedly with nobloodyname's stance there.

During the Helsinki show a few weeks ago, James sang relatively well. I was happy with him keeping the shrieking notes to a bare minimum. That said, he was rather pitchy, at times overwhelmingly so. Much to my surprise he nailed Untethered Angel, but then started to wane as the show proceeded.

I felt it was nice touch how he brought some character inflections from The Astonishing over to this version of Scenes from a Memory, for example in the beginning of Finally Free.

Funny, I heard many people at the Helsinki show talking about how James "sucked" in the first set and then came back and nailed stuff like Strange Deja Vu and Fatal Tragedy. I think he did just fine in both sets, even though SFAM songs are significantly more difficult than the newer songs.

[nikatapi]

I was talking from personal experience by the way, seeing the band live as well as checking youtube videos. And i think that youtube is actually pretty much a reflection of what i experienced live.

I saw the band in 2011, and felt like James did a great job (better than 2007 where i had seen them previously). But, last year i could tell he was struggling a lot. At times i felt like he wasn't even trying to make the lyrics clear, just shouting in hope of reaching the notes.
Was this the case for every song? No. But i honestly cringed in more than 2-3 songs with his performance. And while i still feel like James is the voice of the band, even his studio performance in DoT to me is a proof of his voice taking a turn to the worse. All the effects and autotune/melodyne can't hide that.

[nobloodyname]

I recently got a new company car. A Tesla. Only a model three. But here's the thing: it comes with built-in karaoke. My partner and I thought we'd sing some well-known songs on the way to a party just before Christmas. We're talking things like Don't Look Back in Anger. Songs everyone can sing to. I should say, we can both sing in tune but that's as far as it goes. So we both started singing, and neither of us could find the right key. This was song after song! We'd get there eventually but I made the point at the time that singing without another voice already doing so, is actually really rather difficult when you're not used to it.

And, since then, I've looked on singers with a new-found admiration, because I now have the teeniest insight into how difficult it must be to pull it off live. And that's just to find the right key James is a professional, of course, but it's still a tough gig. And it only gets more difficult the older we get, too.

[Peter Mc]

Yeah I'll second this. For better or worse, cell phones don't really reflect live sound. Any type of recording for that matter.

Without getting into a big argument over this (which has already been done ad nauseam elsewhere), recordings actually do reflect the live sound accurately. It's your perception when you're at the show that is not necessarily accurate because of the super loud volume, the adrenaline running thru your veins from excitement to be at the show, etc. So while you and others might think JL was flawless (or nearly so) at a show, a recording - whether done with high-end mics and digital set up or a cheap cassette recorder with the built in mic - is going to give you an accurate representation of how well he (and the rest of the band) did that particular night.

Don't get me wrong - nothing replaces being at the actual show and taking in the whole experience, which everyone should do if at all possible. But it's a misnomer to say that recordings "don't really reflect live sound."

I'm not saying it's not an accurate recording, I'm saying that's not what it sounds like to be in the room and see the show. The perception you have when you're at the show may be inaccurate for all the reasons you're saying but, at the end of the day, that perception is what's important. You paid for a ticket and did it sound great to you on the night. I just think too many people will watch a YouTube video and think DT or whatever band sound awful. I'm just saying that this is not what it will sound like if you go to see them yourself unless you're very unlucky. If it was, I would not have paid hundreds of pounds over the years going to see them.  For example, the Breaking The Fourth Wall live album is exactly what my show on that tour sounded like to me on the night, even the muddy sound on the first couple of songs. I dare say the same show recorded on a cellphone would not sound anything like that.

[nobloodyname]

Well it certainly wouldn't have the piped-in crowd noise

[cramx3]

Everyone's ears are different too.  In a live setting, some of us don't notice things because our ears just are different while the guy next to you did notice something off.  You have a lot of music people going to DT shows who have more trained ears as well. 

I can say for myself, JLB mostly sounds great in the live setting but then I watch my videos the next day and notice all the nuances I couldn't pick up from the in person experience.  I think both are accurate depictions of what was performed at the end of the day.  No video will replace what you experienced but the video doesn't lie either.

[emtee]

The SFaM show in Helsinki is posted. Obviously I was not there so
all I can go by is what I hear. The band played well. James struggled.
It was tough to get through at times. I'm not sure how much longer
he can sing some of those songs.

[gzarruk]

Jordan has already posted two videos (old videos, tho) of him practicing TCOT. It is unlikely, but what are the odds of them playing it on one of the two London shows for the live recording?

[geeeemo]

Jordan has already posted two videos (old videos, tho) of him practicing TCOT. It is unlikely, but what are the odds of them playing it on one of the two London shows for the live recording?

   

[cminor]

Jordan has already posted two videos (old videos, tho) of him practicing TCOT. It is unlikely, but what are the odds of them playing it on one of the two London shows for the live recording?

About one year ago Jordan posted short clips of practicing PBD weeks before the start of the DOT Tour and especially since then I always have the impression that such clips are meant to contain a hint which pieces will be performed in the near future. So I suppose the chances of seeing TCOT live as an encore in London (maybe AWE on the first night / TCOT on the second night?) have now increased slightly.

Additional arguments in favor of playing TCOT could be:
- I read that some fans expect them not to play the same static setlist on two following nights (especially for a DVD recording (just like at Luna Park))
- it is an epic (not a fan favorite though (I remember the "rank the DT mega-epics" poll where it did not get a lot of votes), so it is perfectly made as an encore
- it never has been used for a DVD / pro shot recording (which is likely to be the strongest argument?)
- I guess it is not too demanding for James (??)
- they already played it with MM before, so less practice is needed (compared to Octavarium)

Overall I still think it would be a big surprise to see them performing it in London but you'll never know.

[KidInTheDark666]

What? The Count Of Tuscany isn't a fan favorite? I was sure that it's a consensus top 10 song. It's in the second place of all DT songs here: https://www.thetoptens.com/top-ten-dream-theater-songs/

[KevShmev]

What? The Count Of Tuscany isn't a fan favorite? I was sure that it's a consensus top 10 song. It's in the second place of all DT songs here: https://www.thetoptens.com/top-ten-dream-theater-songs/

While I do agree that The Count of Tuscany is very popular with the hardcore fans, that list in the link looks like one person's opinion, and while I like Panic Attack, listing that as their 7th best song is a major WTF.

[EPIC Outro]

And while it may or may not be a 'forum' favorite, that doesnt necessarily represent what the fan base at large might think.

I personally love TCOT!

[KidInTheDark666]

While I do agree that The Count of Tuscany is very popular with the hardcore fans, that list in the link looks like one person's opinion, and while I like Panic Attack, listing that as their 7th best song is a major WTF.

But everyone can vote on Thetoptens. The visitors have voted that particular list 12 000 times. Also, Panic Attack is amazing song and it being in the top 10 isn't surprising to me. It's their second most popular song on Spotify after all.

[cminor]

What? The Count Of Tuscany isn't a fan favorite? I was sure that it's a consensus top 10 song. It's in the second place of all DT songs here: https://www.thetoptens.com/top-ten-dream-theater-songs/

I see your point. I personally like TCOT as well but I was referring to the forum poll where it only got 3% of all votes (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=53591.0).
So maybe TCOT is indeed a fan favorite but not in direct comparison to other mega-epics like Octavarium, ACOS or SDOIT.

[KidInTheDark666]

Yeah, I should probably check out that voting.

[Lonk]

Even on this forum, TCOT came out as a top 20 song in the DT league. Considering there were 152 songs competing, ranking top 20 shows it is appreciated here as well.

[Cool Chris]

Saw them play it in 2011 (or was it 2010?). Not a favorite song of mine, but live it was great to see.

Yes, please change the setlist, song selections, tunings, whatever to help James' performances and longevity. You can acknowledge time is passing, and that you are a first class top tier band, at the same time.

[Evermind]

Yep, saw it played during the European ADTOE tour in 2011 I think? It was a highlight of the set for me. Would be good to see it brought back if only for one show.

[fadetoblackdude7]

I must have missed something. When was it announced that the London shows are going to be filmed?

[gzarruk]

I must have missed something. When was it announced that the London shows are going to be filmed?

London! 🇬🇧 We've added a second date at the Eventim Apollo next year, tickets go on sale this Friday at 10am. http://gigst.rs/DreamTheater

We are also excited to announce that we will be 🎥 filming both of these shows, stay tuned for more news on that! 🤘

https://www.facebook.com/dreamtheater/posts/10156330931117181

And, apparently, James has been saying that on the recent shows too.

[fadetoblackdude7]

Thanks!

[Ben_Jamin]

Yeah I'll second this. For better or worse, cell phones don't really reflect live sound. Any type of recording for that matter.

Without getting into a big argument over this (which has already been done ad nauseam elsewhere), recordings actually do reflect the live sound accurately. It's your perception when you're at the show that is not necessarily accurate because of the super loud volume, the adrenaline running thru your veins from excitement to be at the show, etc. So while you and others might think JL was flawless (or nearly so) at a show, a recording - whether done with high-end mics and digital set up or a cheap cassette recorder with the built in mic - is going to give you an accurate representation of how well he (and the rest of the band) did that particular night.

Don't get me wrong - nothing replaces being at the actual show and taking in the whole experience, which everyone should do if at all possible. But it's a misnomer to say that recordings "don't really reflect live sound."

Semantics.
I think we're both right it just different ideas on "accurate". You're talking accuracy regarding a bands technical performance. I'm talking about accuracy of live SOUND.

Yes a recording is a recording. LaBrie is off pitch no matter what. But a cell phone recording through a cell phone speaker (both of which will also color the sound) is not going to be an accurate reflection of standing in front of a 100db loudspeaker in a 2000 seat theatre hall. What you're actually going to hear and perceive. Under those conditions (in my experience) LaBrie sounds fine. And that's not just adrenaline or "personal investment", or just being drowned out by the rest of the band for that matter. It's what you're hearing, the timbre, frequencies, acoustics- it's all going to affect how the band sounds.

With the mix being as loud as it is, that will affect how his voice sounds. Even the other frequencies suffer.

[KevShmev]

While I do agree that The Count of Tuscany is very popular with the hardcore fans, that list in the link looks like one person's opinion, and while I like Panic Attack, listing that as their 7th best song is a major WTF.

But everyone can vote on Thetoptens. The visitors have voted that particular list 12 000 times. Also, Panic Attack is amazing song and it being in the top 10 isn't surprising to me. It's their second most popular song on Spotify after all.

I am guessing the fact that it was featured in one of those Rock Band videos is a big reason why.  Maybe I am looking at it from a forum standpoint, but I almost never see that song listed as a favorite.  And I get that this forum is only a fraction of the fan base.

[EPIC Outro]

I don't care much for Panic Attack, but I beleive Portnoy once said he regretted not putting it on their "Greatest Hit" compilation album because the song had become one of their most popular ever - largely due to its inclusion in the Rock Band game.

[hunnus2000]

I don't care much for Panic Attack but I beleive Portnoy once said he regretted not putting it on their "Greatest Hit" compilation album because the song had become one of their most popular ever - largely due to its inclusion in the Rock Band game.

Well to each their own. I happen to love the song but what I like most is how the emotional allusion of the song could almost give the listener a literal panic attack. JP's riffing and the driving force of MP's drums really make for an intense ride and the lyrics just tie everything together.
I give credit to JP for this because the way his story telling to me is just magical and when I say story telling, I am talking about his ability to weave the music and lyrics to tell a cohesive story.
He does the same thing with TEI on DT12 where the beginning of the song (to me) represents a firefight to perfection.  (Props for MM's contribution on this song)

[EPIC Outro]

I thought the lyrics to PA didn't give me much to dig into at first. But since then, I've come to know someone who suffers from panic attacks, and I understand the song and its presentation much more now than I once did. It's not my favorite, but I respect it.

[TAC]

Panic Attack kicks all kinds of ass.

[Cool Chris]

I always thought Panic Attack would make a great walk-up song for a professional wrestler.

[NoFred]

I always thought Panic Attack would make a great walk-up song for a professional wrestler.

Since beaten by FitL, but yeah I see what you mean

[cygnusx1jg]

Not sure how many more DT tours there will be, but do you think they will ever play any of the MP2:SFAM songs again after this tour?t