What happened to JP's playing style?

[Pettor]

He used to make brilliant compositions and solos...I feel like his mindset is more about technicality than melody these days.

Strange comments given your admission that you're not particularly familiar with DT's post-MP material.  https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=53476.msg2524721#msg2524721

I feel like the last time I really loved JP on a track was The Best of Times.  He didn't overplay. It was tasteful and restrained.  Not only that, it was memorable.

Best of Times solo is ofc awesome, but I don't understand your argument at all since you say that. Listen to the Barstool Warrior solo, isn't that exactly an extremely soulful and restrained solo, kinda in the same way as BOT? I even think the BW solo has some small details to it that make it sound even better than BOT.

Then you have FITL, Out of Reach, At Wit's End or even the wonderful playfulness in Room 137 etc. that showcase even more of that. The guitar nuances, tone and playing style in D/T is the best since SDOIT for me, which basically is the best award I can give it.

I guess you have to give us an example of how D/T is NOT exactly what you say you are missing, because I think for a lot in here it doesn't make sense.

[erciccio]

I'll second most of what has been stated above. I felt the "not memorable melodic lines" at first, but they just need a little time. I have JP's At Wit's End solo stuck in my head at this very moment. Sure, the solos on this album might not be something as big as, say Razor's Edge or TSCO, but there are great melodic lines

I do admit I'm a huge Petrucci-fangirl and find it hard to dislike him at any point BUT I was just thinking yesterday how I feel like he kept it pretty simple with this album and was so much more about melody than technique. It hasn't always been that way, but I honestly don't see how OP can make this kind of comment after the latest album

Also here's what JP himself has to say about musicality vs. speed: https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/general_music_news/john_petrucci_musicality_is_king_on_any_instrument_but_speed_is_still_fun.html

Well, it's mainly in tapping but the solo in S2N is pretty insane...the timing is quite crazy....he alternates groups of 6 and 9:6 over a 7/8+3/8+5/8 metric...

In terms of technique, he used a lot of tapping this time, often combined with arpeggio and sweeps...something he did not use much in the early albums.

I also love the PBD outro...very sinister but also melodic, where technique is used to create and release tension

[CirclesSquared]

He used to make brilliant compositions and solos...I feel like his mindset is more about technicality than melody these days.

If there was a wrong timing for a post like this, it's now.

[Art]

I dont play any instrument and i know nothing about the technical aspects of playing.

With that said, there was a time in JP's carrer that i thought that he had become too techinical, too shreddy. For my taste, that is.

He's been reconecting with the more melodical side (stupid term, i know) since maybe ADTOE, and for me, his playing on D/T has gone back to my favorite style. And with the bonus that i absolutely LOVE the guitar tone on the new album.

[darkshade]

DOT may be JP's best overall performance since Six Degrees. Just the right amount of flash, technique, and melodic phrasing.

[mikeyd23]

DOT may be JP's best overall performance since Six Degrees. Just the right amount of flash, technique, and melodic phrasing.

I agree with this, which makes the OP even more confusing. Not to mention the fact that his playing TA was incredibly melodic and soulful.

[Samsara]

He used to make brilliant compositions and solos...I feel like his mindset is more about technicality than melody these days.

To be very objective, I think you have a point. He's evolved since the 90s. I also felt like his playing was a lot colder, and a lot more technical. Especially in comparison with the stuff from WDADU-SFAM. Starting with Six Degrees, he lost (IMO) a lot of feel off his solos, and overplayed a bit. However, on this new record, and on The Astonishing (which I am not a fan of, but that's a different conversation) you can see he's re-emphasized it a little bit. As explained by others, At Wit's End is the perfect example.

Like any musician, JP evolves, as he should. Sometimes, musicians evolve away from what you enjoy. When that happens, you stay on board for the ride, or jump off. Lucky for me, at least regarding JP, the train came back around again, at least for the last two albums, and I jumped back on. But others may not feel that way.

No slagging of JP here. I am just glad he has (whether it was on purpose or involuntary) brought a bit more touch and drama back to his playing style.

[SuperTaco]

This opinion may have gathered steam after DT12, but TA and D/T have proved that JP still has plenty of melody and emotion in his playing style.

[Dream Team]

DOT may be JP's best overall performance since Six Degrees. Just the right amount of flash, technique, and melodic phrasing.

I agree with this, which makes the OP even more confusing. Not to mention the fact that his playing TA was incredibly melodic and soulful.

I'd like to see the OP come back and defend himself. Literally the ONLY album with too many shred solos was Train of Thought and that was BY DESIGN.

[lucidlydreaming]

DOT may be JP's best overall performance since Six Degrees. Just the right amount of flash, technique, and melodic phrasing.

I agree with this, which makes the OP even more confusing. Not to mention the fact that his playing TA was incredibly melodic and soulful.

I'd like to see the OP come back and defend himself. Literally the ONLY album with too many shred solos was Train of Thought and that was BY DESIGN.

SDOIT was and still is fantastic. Solitary Shell, About to Crash, the Stem Cell song...Really great stuff.  You can sing the choruses!

BCSL had way too many unnecessary sections that didn't add anything to the song.  DOT is better in terms of making do with less, but it's still got a ways to go.  The band really needs to demo songs and hire an outside producer, imho. 

Even though I haven't bought an album since 8V, I've always listened to each album with an open mind.  Though I'm no longer listening through the ears of a biased super fan. 

I do get that DT's music takes a lot to digest, but I feel like the solos are pretty much pasted on top of sections that could be cut and pasted onto a different song. 

Go back and listen to their catalog pre-2001 and you can hear a total shift in terms of songwriting. Yes, there's plenty of shred and instrumentals, but it doesn't feel completely indulgent.  Even if you go back and listen to his '93 solo in the Live in Tokyo and it's like he's basically a different player.  The chromatic runs were very minimal and brief.  Everything had a pretty nice balanced approach.

It's hard to put a finger on it exactly since I don't know music theory but I hear a clear difference.

[lovethedrake]

If your point is that DT as a whole has not composed as well since SDOIT than I wholeheartedly agree.... 

I still love everything they do but they definitely peaked at SDOIT and shifted writing styles after that.   

The post was about JP though... and his playing on the past 3 albums, including D/T has been extremely melodic and soulful.   He brought some of the shred back on D/T but fans were clamoring for that so can you blame him?   I think he did a great job of bringing that shred back while not losing sight of the melodies on this album though and there are a ton of melodic and emotionally melodic moments on the album.

[Herrick]

I really don't know what "soulful" means when it comes to guitar playing. I'm sure Petrucci gives it his all on every song. Whether or not that song or solo connects with me personally is another matter.

[lucidlydreaming]

If your point is that DT as a whole has not composed as well since SDOIT than I wholeheartedly agree.... 

I still love everything they do but they definitely peaked at SDOIT and shifted writing styles after that.   

The post was about JP though... and his playing on the past 3 albums, including D/T has been extremely melodic and soulful.   He brought some of the shred back on D/T but fans were clamoring for that so can you blame him?   I think he did a great job of bringing that shred back while not losing sight of the melodies on this album though and there are a ton of melodic and emotionally melodic moments on the album.

The songwriting and his playing kind of go hand in hand, doesn't it?  With MP gone, I'm assuming that it's JP leading the creative charge for the most part.

I don't know if I can separate the two concepts since folks have been asking me to expound on my opinions.

[1neeto]

Not sure if serious.

[lovethedrake]

It's the bands 14th album... they all have families and are well established musicians.   How many bands make a 14th album as good as their breakout albums?

I know I'm never going to get another sfam so I'm going to just enjoy when they make solid albums from start to finish.   If anyone seems checked out on this album it's JR imo and not JP.  But that's really just on the JR solos.

[Dream Team]

This thread is from the twilight zone . . . first he's making it specifically about JP's soloing, then all of a sudden we've switched to "sections" of songs??? lol

[mikeyd23]

I was going to pick some arguments apart, but it's not worth it. I'll just keep enjoying the new record 

[Bertielee]

This thread is from the twilight zone . . . first he's making it specifically about JP's soloing, then all of a sudden we've switched to "sections" of songs??? lol

Easy, he doesn't like DT post-MP it seems. So...

B.Lee

[RAIN]

His style has definitely evolved, but I'm not sure if it's for the better. Even his tone is completely different (I miss the Ibanez + Mesa Boogie combo).

I am in agreement with you and his playing seems a bit stale for the last 9 years.  I started with DT at the beginning and really feal Awake and ACOS is the ultimate period.  The last I felt inspired by John as a player was on BC&SL.  I know players/musicians change over time, and that's fine, and I don't think anyone is saying he's a bad player, but he's changed, and not to everyone's liking, and that's an extremely valid opinion, not a harsh criticism.

[Dream Team]

His style has definitely evolved, but I'm not sure if it's for the better. Even his tone is completely different (I miss the Ibanez + Mesa Boogie combo).

I am in agreement with you and his playing seems a bit stale for the last 9 years.  I started with DT at the beginning and really feal Awake and ACOS is the ultimate period.  The last I felt inspired by John as a player was on BC&SL.  I know players/musicians change over time, and that's fine, and I don't think anyone is saying he's a bad player, but he's changed, and not to everyone's liking, and that's an extremely valid opinion, not a harsh criticism.

He didn't do anything unique on BCSL?

[lucidlydreaming]

This thread is from the twilight zone . . . first he's making it specifically about JP's soloing, then all of a sudden we've switched to "sections" of songs??? lol

My first post was about compositions. Solos, instrumental sections, etc are all covered under compositions. 

[lucidlydreaming]

This thread is from the twilight zone . . . first he's making it specifically about JP's soloing, then all of a sudden we've switched to "sections" of songs??? lol

Easy, he doesn't like DT post-MP it seems. So...

B.Lee

Do be fair, the band lost me long before MP left.  Everything from SC on has been just ok. There are a few songs here and there that are really good, but the quality of writing has gone downhill even though the technicality has actually gotten higher.  But being more technical doesn't mean better.

[Dedalus]

This thread is from the twilight zone . . . first he's making it specifically about JP's soloing, then all of a sudden we've switched to "sections" of songs??? lol

Easy, he doesn't like DT post-MP it seems. So...

B.Lee

Do be fair, the band lost me long before MP left.  Everything from SC on has been just ok. There are a few songs here and there that are really good, but the quality of writing has gone downhill even though the technicality has actually gotten higher.  But being more technical doesn't mean better.

But he isn't focused only in technicality now. The last years aren't like TOT era. You don't like, ok. It happens.

[Bertielee]

This thread is from the twilight zone . . . first he's making it specifically about JP's soloing, then all of a sudden we've switched to "sections" of songs??? lol

Easy, he doesn't like DT post-MP it seems. So...

B.Lee

Do be fair, the band lost me long before MP left.  Everything from SC on has been just ok. There are a few songs here and there that are really good, but the quality of writing has gone downhill even though the technicality has actually gotten higher.  But being more technical doesn't mean better.

OK, fair enough, and I tend to agree with you that the clinical side of DT got the better of the music in SC and BC&SL. Then, I found them cold and not really appealing to my ears. They have come back to a less clinical approach with ADToE, albeit keeping some of that side. TA is full of melody and far from having the coldness of SC and BC&SL. Whether it is to your liking dépends only on you. With D/T, I think they have found the perfect balance between melody and technicality (does this word even exist?) again.

Now, back to topic, if what you say is that you miss the JP of old, I&W to SFAM era, it might be a matter of preference. I like JP in all periods of time : for me, he has lost nothing, he's just changed.

B.Lee

[DT2003]

JPs playing/writing style has certainly evolved over the years, and he's done nothing but improve his playing, but he has shown time and time again that he's more than capable of showing restraint and writing incredibly soulful/beautiful guitar parts, even if they're difficult and technical.

His style has definitely evolved, but I'm not sure if it's for the better. Even his tone is completely different (I miss the Ibanez + Mesa Boogie combo).

I actually love the his tone on this album.

[RJ86]

Go listen to Breaking All Illusions solo...

Yeah, it's old... Now. But in DT years its relatively new. He killed it with that solo.

[jakepriest]

Go listen to Breaking All Illusions solo...

Yeah, it's old... Now. But in DT years its relatively new. He killed it with that solo.

It's weird how I still consider ADTOE to be a relatively new album.
It's 8 years old. Depressing. 

[lucidlydreaming]

This thread is from the twilight zone . . . first he's making it specifically about JP's soloing, then all of a sudden we've switched to "sections" of songs??? lol

Easy, he doesn't like DT post-MP it seems. So...

B.Lee

Do be fair, the band lost me long before MP left.  Everything from SC on has been just ok. There are a few songs here and there that are really good, but the quality of writing has gone downhill even though the technicality has actually gotten higher.  But being more technical doesn't mean better.

OK, fair enough, and I tend to agree with you that the clinical side of DT got the better of the music in SC and BC&SL. Then, I found them cold and not really appealing to my ears. They have come back to a less clinical approach with ADToE, albeit keeping some of that side. TA is full of melody and far from having the coldness of SC and BC&SL. Whether it is to your liking dépends only on you. With D/T, I think they have found the perfect balance between melody and technicality (does this word even exist?) again.

Now, back to topic, if what you say is that you miss the JP of old, I&W to SFAM era, it might be a matter of preference. I like JP in all periods of time : for me, he has lost nothing, he's just changed.

B.Lee

I don't think he's lost anything.  The talent is there, I think his approach has changed? 

I definitely prefer the JP of old from I&W through 6DOIT. ToT appeals to the Metallica fan in me, but I'll admit the instrumental sections didn't always fit the song.  This is probably the last album from them that I thoroughly enjoyed.

I soooo wanted to like TA.  I actually love musicals, I love rock operas...What could go wrong? But outside of Our New World, it didn't resonate with me. DOT...The JP sounds FAB, but in terms of playing strong, cohesive songs, the bar is still far below SFAM / 6DOIT.

[erwinrafael]

Are you criticizing the songwriting now not the guitar playing?

[RoeDent]

We keep moving the goalposts here, don't we? The criticism falls flat right away when you say you haven't paid much attention to the Mangini era, and you don't buy the albums anymore.

[PixelDream]

The JP I'm hearing on this album is the same JP I've been a fan of since 1999. The leads in Paralyzed, Barstool Warrior, At Wit's End and many more are soulful, melodic and impressively technical in a few spots. Awake is my favorite album with also my favorite JP guitar work, but on this album he's basically on the same level IMO. One of his strongest efforts I'd say: the guitar work and JP's masterful sense of melody just make this album.

[Bertielee]

Yeah, clearly, there was a shift in the discussion from JP's playing to DT's songs. Lack of coherence.

[lucidlydreaming]

Bertielee,

JP plays during those Dream Theater songs if I remember correctly. I can only judge his guitar playing by going off the songs he wrote.

We keep moving the goalposts here, don't we? The criticism falls flat right away when you say you haven't paid much attention to the Mangini era, and you don't buy the albums anymore.

I've heard every song they've released even if I haven't bought anything in years. I'm also not predisposed to like the material because I'm not invested in it. That's the beauty of looking at this band from the outside, I don't HAVE to like nor do I HAVE to listen to an alright song to find nuggets of gold.

[Shooters1221]

Well... to the OP, as one that is JP's age, I understand his playing from his first recordings because his influences were mine also, so WDADU "was what it was". Then came IAW..AWAKE.....SFAM..and SDOIT.....and to ADTOE...TA...now....The world has changed as has music.....and his influences...just the way it is...influences have grown because of time. I think JP is the best progressive/metal, if not general one of the best guitarists in the world now......WHY? Because we're discussing him on a DT forum, and not some anyhoo wannabe who has never written great original music forum that doesn't exist(not you, or anyone specific)...It is what it is!

[Elite]

Random, but the bend at 7:19 is one of the most amazing, subtle, incredible things JP has done it makes me heart cry.  Could be a top 5 JP moment already for me.

This album really has made me fall in love with him again, big time.

  Are you talking about At Wit's End?  (that and PBD are the only songs that are long enough to have a "7:19")  I don't hear a bend there.  I hear vibratto, but I'm not sure he bends to that.  He does bend into the high note about 2 second later though.  Is that what you mean?

Yeah sorry, At Wit's End.  Maybe it's 7:20, it's an amazing bend which follows a 4 note run down and then some quick shred.  JP plays the note first with some stacato then bends the note in such a why like he's making the guitar cry.

That's awesome indeed, wow! Takes a lot to get subtle phrasing like this done perfectly.

wolfking, thanks for saying basically all I would say (as a guitarist as well) about JP's playing style. DoT contains so much good stuff from him, it has actually sparked me to go back to all their previous albums after years of barely listening to Dream Theater at all and discovering lots of nice things I never really heard before (and hearing lots of awesome stuff I obviously recognised).