Who else is tired of people calling Mangini soulless?

[gzarruk]

And that's another Mangini thing. He is open to other's ideas. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. Drummers who continuously grow have this attitude. Virgil Donati, for example, downtuned his snare in the Icefish album based on Marco Sfogli and Alex Argento's suggestion. He did not think it would work, but he trusted them even though he was the producer of Icefish's album. Fortunately, it really worked out well.

Didn't know that about Virgil's snare tuning. Glad they did it, because I was never a fan of his super high tuned snare, it sounded very weak imo.

For me, it's not about having soul, or feeling the music, or anything like that. But what MP represents to the band, he's to DT what Lars Ulrich was to Metallica, and that means being head to creative process for the whole band. I don't know to explain but it's something that you feel right away, just watch the Score documentary and you'll see.

A very overrated drummer who refuses to get better on his craft?

[goo-goo]

I do think a lot of Mangini's "feel" play gets lost on the shitty drum sounds and mixes on these last three studio albums. He uses a lot ghost notes and cymbal/ride nuances here and there. The 24 bit version of ADTOE highlights these nuances the most. Live at Luna Park also highlights his "feel" play.

Ultimately, Mike should push for a better drum sound: whether it's Chycky capturing/recording a bad quality sound; or change the drum kit to let less bleed in from the adjacent mics; a combination of both....the drum sound on the Enemy Inside video that Mike recorded for a clinic has an awesome sound; although in my opinion, the Zildjian cymbals he uses on that video sound a bit thin to my taste.

[Herrick]

*raises hand*

To be fair, I'm no more tired of it than I am of folks who insist that shred guitar isn't "emotional".

What's even worse than that are people who complain about lack of emotion when a guitar player (or any other musician) is just demonstrating some highly skilled technique. It's not supposed to be emotional.

Years ago I was talking to someone about music and they said something like, "Oh so you like the more cold technical approach" insinuating that there was no "emotion" in the music I listened to. I just smiled and nodded. I'm not going to bother convincing someone that just because emotion is expressed in a way they don't like doesn't mean there's no emotion in the music 

I don't know, I'm a little confused by the italicized part. Joy at accomplishing a particularly difficult run isn't an emotion? I think what nearly every commentators means by "emotion" is in a range of depressive to spiritual elation. I think we experience a much greater range of emotion in our lives.

Take the sublime emotion of laughter for example. Name a song that you think was a great example of the musician's craft that is also humorous. I'll wait...

...for whatever reason, these are always seen as a novelty or a gag. I happen to disagree and it's partially why I've kept my avatar as the cover of Studio Tan for so many years. I find that album hilarious and also a very challenging listen for its excellent music.

I was thinking more of people who criticize a lack of emotion by defining emotion as having "feeling" or "soul" whatever that means. Specifically, I was commenting on those who criticize a lack of emotion when some guitar guy is just demonstrating a technique like in an instructional video or something.

This is what I was thinking about when I made that post:

Fastest guitarist in the world: 27 notes per second on guitar (Sergiy Putyatov) Guinness Record 2012:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWcB84Gn1lU

When I first watched that video, I could've sworn there was at least one person complaining about about the "emotionz". Complaining about no emotion in these circumstances is like complaining about a lack of T&A in a kids movie.

[erwinrafael]

I believe that DT would eventually get Mangini's sound right. Mangini once said that there were two recordings that really captured how he hears his drums: Mullmuzzler II and Elements of Persuasion. Elements of Persuasion was engineered by Richard Chycki. So Rich knows how to get his sound, maybe they were just experimenting with JP's ideas as producer and they may also be really adjusting to his large kit.

[rumborak]

Yeah, but I mean, no band, not even DT, has 5 albums' time to dial in on the drum sound finally.

[Dublagent66]

I believe that DT would eventually get Mangini's sound right.

Eventually?  It's been 7 years.    If there actually was a problem with MM's sound, I'm sure they would've figured that out by now.

[Podaar]

I believe that DT would eventually get Mangini's sound right.

Eventually?  It's been 7 years.    If there actually was a problem with MM's sound, I'm sure they would've figured that out by now.

Oh they've figured it out alright, Breaking The Fourth Wall.

[Dublagent66]

I believe that DT would eventually get Mangini's sound right.

Eventually?  It's been 7 years.    If there actually was a problem with MM's sound, I'm sure they would've figured that out by now.

Oh they've figured it out alright, Breaking The Fourth Wall.

You got that right.  Incredible!!   

[The Presence of Frenemies]

Funny how BTFW not only has the amazing drum sound, it also brings back a lot of the MP-style "lead drums" approach. I feel like if MM always sounded/played like that, he'd have long been accepted by the vast majority of the base.

[erwinrafael]

Mangini didn't change much of the drums in BTFW compared to studio versions of Mangini-era songs. So I don't get how he took a more lead drums approach in that album.

[Logain Ablar]

I believe that DT would eventually get Mangini's sound right. Mangini once said that there were two recordings that really captured how he hears his drums: Mullmuzzler II and Elements of Persuasion. Elements of Persuasion was engineered by Richard Chycki. So Rich knows how to get his sound, maybe they were just experimenting with JP's ideas as producer and they may also be really adjusting to his large kit.

I went off and listened to the drums on Elements of Persuasion - they sound great! The cymbals/hats are ringing out clearly, and the snare sounds tighter than on the last two DT albums. I'd be happy with that sound on the next record.

BTFW also sounds pretty good to my ears - you can hear all the intricate things he's doing on the hi-hats. Maybe the snare could be a little bit punchier, but that's about it.

[mikeyd23]

Mangini didn't change much of the drums in BTFW compared to studio versions of Mangini-era songs. So I don't get how he took a more lead drums approach in that album.

Yup, it's really just a result of the mix. He's louder and more defined in the mix, but didn't really change his parts from the studio stuff he recorded. He switched up some MP stuff, but stayed pretty true to his own studio recordings for the most part.

[Evai]

I think Mangini should write his own 'As I Am' song

[DT1138]

FWIW, DT was on fire for the Chicago show on Nov 3rd and MM was not only great, but he was easily the most talkative and openly friendly at the meet and greet.  The only concern I had was at the end of the show when James had to help MM get down from the drum riser.  Poor guy looked like he was really hurting.  His playing was awesome though.

[Herrick]

FWIW, DT was on fire for the Chicago show on Nov 3rd and MM was not only great, but he was easily the most talkative and openly friendly at the meet and greet.  The only concern I had was at the end of the show when James had to help MM get down from the drum riser.  Poor guy looked like he was really hurting.  His playing was awesome though.

What was wrong with Mangini?

[erwinrafael]

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I just found this vid that was posted more than a year ago.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=58KFlF1SRoI

Damn. Coupled with the Zildjian The Enemy Inside video, I am almost tempted to call for a re-record of DT12 to do justice to Mangini.

He did make some mistakes in that clinic audio but no big deal. Hehehe

[Logain Ablar]

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I just found this vid that was posted more than a year ago.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=58KFlF1SRoI

Damn. Coupled with the Zildjian The Enemy Inside video, I am almost tempted to call for a re-record of DT12 to do justice to Mangini.

He did make some mistakes in that clinic audio but no big deal. Hehehe

It's videos like that one, and the recent Xanadu cover, that reinforce my belief that the drum production and/or mix are feeding into this "soulless" accusation. I'm really hoping MM gets more of a say into the production of his drums on the next record.

[nikatapi]

There is definitely an issue with how MM's drums are produced on DT albums.
Having seen him in person, he sounds so much more dynamic and powerful live.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnqojyUeTc8
Check this video, where drums are more upfront and the cymbals are so clear and loud.

[mikeyd23]

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I just found this vid that was posted more than a year ago.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=58KFlF1SRoI

Damn. Coupled with the Zildjian The Enemy Inside video, I am almost tempted to call for a re-record of DT12 to do justice to Mangini.

He did make some mistakes in that clinic audio but no big deal. Hehehe

That sounded worlds better in terms of feel and presence. There's no question in my mind that if MM's drums were mixed and produced more like MP's were (on records like SFAM, SDOIT, FII, etc...) a lot of people would have different opinions of his playing.

[Fritzinger]

I agree with most people's opinions. MMs drum sound is taking a lot of emotion and small nuances out of his playing. You can really hear that when you see him live or on the Xanadu cover. Also, that project MM has been playing on, Into The Great Divide, showcases how great he sounds, when JP would let him (because let's face it, this is JPs "fault").

[Evai]

One set of ears isn't enough. JP is so used to writing with a drum machine that he mixes MM to sound that way without realizing it. JP is so used to writing vocals with pitch correction, that he didn't notice that Far From Heaven sounds heavily pitch corrected. JP plays guitar so fast that he doesn't realize he's aged 100 years and grew a massive beard.

[Logain Ablar]

Do we know who mixed the Xanadu cover? Was it Rich Chycki on his own? Maybe it is just a matter of JP stepping back a little, and letting someone else take the lead on mixing the drums.

(The pitch correction on TA does bother me a little. It's one of those things that once you hear it, you'll always notice it at that same point in the song.)