What if ADTOE was DT's debut album?

[Bertielee]

No. ADtoE and DT 12 were good, but not enough to keep me interested in the band. Now, despite its flaws, if TA had been DT's first album, I probably would have become a fan.

B.Lee

[mikeyd23]

Yeah, one thing that really drew me in was the guitar and the drumming of DT. JP is still as good as ever I think, but the draw of MP's "air drumming" quality would certainly be missing.

As much as I do like the MM era, I do agree with this.

[arkdtmp]

No. ADtoE was pretty good, and stylistically similar to older DT, but DT12 was a giant nothing for me, with songs that were really similar and boring sounding. The Astonishing is okay, and would probably rank in the middle of my all-time album ranking.

Growing up learning to play guitar, I really enjoyed Metallica, and when someone introduced me to Octavarium, the intricate, complex and excellently thought-out drumming hooked me and has made their music a most interesting and satisfying experience.

Listening to MP made want to switch instruments (to drums) to try and play like that, and the newer stuff is just too plain (in terms of the drumming especially) for me.

[Bertielee]

Nvmd, wrong thread.

B.Lee

[Dream Team]

Since ADTOE is so similar to I&W (which got me into DT); I for sure would have become a fan.

[Enigmachine]

Definitely. I have found the past 3 albums to be brilliant and about as fresh and creative as DT's early Iaw-Awake era material.

[erwinrafael]

I voted YES. My most played playlist for the past three months is actually a 1-CD length playlist of Mangini-era songs. I named it Our New World. 

Dystopian Overture
The Gift of Music
This is the Life
Bridges in the Sky
Chosen
Behind the Veil
Breaking All Illusions
Our New World
Illumination Theory

Then I have also been playing a lot my 1-CD length version of The Astonishing.

Practically the only pre-Mangini era album that still get lots of play from me is Awake. The MM era has two of my top three albums and three of my top four songs.

As usual the vocal posts are so different from the poll results.

[TheAtliator]

Holy crap, ADTOE would be one of the strongest debut albums of all time...

Heck, any debut album that has Breaking All Illusions?? To me, it would be almost as undeniable as hearing Haken's first few albums now.

[phospheneSOI]

I would have loved the first album, been insanely disappointing by the second, and then thought the third was an improvement but that they were a one-album wonder.

[?]

I would have loved the first album, been insanely disappointing by the second, and then thought the third was an improvement but that they were a one-album wonder.

[Air Weaver]

Since ADTOE is so similar to I&W (which got me into DT); I for sure would have become a fan.

I'm in this camp 100%. I said this to MM at a meet and greet this summer: "I've been on board with this band since Images and Words. I love it all. But my favorite era of DT is since you joined the band."

Blasphemy I know, especially among the "Portnoy is god, they are nothing without him" folks, but it's honest for me. DT12 was the album I've been waiting for in the vein of the I&W -- Metropolis Pt 2  direction. I know that 6 Degrees is the album all about recovery, but something about DT12 has connected to me in a personal way that is inexplicable. I find similar themes in ADToE, and love it too - but for me DT12 will always be the pinnacle. Not a popular opinion, but there it is.

[bosk1]

Doesn't matter if it's a "popular" opinion.  It's a good opinion.

[Air Weaver]

Doesn't matter if it's a "popular" opinion.  It's a good opinion.

[Prog Snob]

Absolutely, yes. With that Images and Words influence, I think the album would have been an instant favorite.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

No.

[Architeuthis]

Yes, I would have been hooked after hearing BITS. The whole album rocks!

[Pragmaticcircus]

Hmm no, I wouldn't become a fan. I've been losing interest since after the release of Octavarium. After it is has been getting worse and worse, in my opinion. The albums that made me a fan were I&W, Awake, Scenes, LSFNY, FII and Six Degrees. I don't think they will ever reach that quality again.

I'm in the same boat

[Samsara]

[EDIT:  And, yeah, sorry the thread title and poll question are slightly different.  There is a character limit for thread titles, so I couldn't make it say what I really wanted it to say.]

Just curious what people would think.  Let's imagine we can erase history and there was NOTHING from DT prior to A Dramatic Turn of Events.  So either ADTOE, DT12, or The Astonishing would have been the first time you heard DT.  If that were the case, would you be a fan?  Or is your fandom contingent upon the band's back catalog?  Tell me why.  And please do NOT take this as an opportunity to bash either era of the band or otherwise break forum rules.

I know for me, the answer is easily "yes."  I love the back catalog.  But I love the new albums as well.  If the Mangini era of the band was all that existed, I would still be all over this band.  Would they still be my favorite?  That's a tougher question.  There is enough strong material that they would definitely be a contender, that's for sure.  I guess the point is, for me, this era is easily strong enough to stand on its own.  Curious how many agree and how many disagree. 

But to maybe look at it a little differently, if the first think I ever heard from the band was ADTOE or DT12, I would have for sure picked up the albums and followed the band to see what else they had.  If The Astonishing was the first thing I ever heard, it gets a bit trickier.  If I wasn't prepped for it, I'm not sure I would have given the entire thing a chance.  And I'm not sure it would have immediately grabbed me after one listen.  And even if it did, I'm not sure it would have grabbed me hard enough to make me keep coming back to sit through the entire thing for enough repeat listens to really "get it," or that it would have grabbed me enough to make me want to check out some of their other stuff.  I think a lot of my enjoyment of that album derives from my understanding of what I was in for going in, and its context within the band's history.  But if, say, ADTOE was my first experience, and then DT12, and then they released TA, I think I would be mostly as prepared and as on board as I am now.

To be honest, that's how my wife evaluates most records, and I've fallen in line with that line of thinking. In answer to your question, I am with the "unsure" crowd. There's enough in ADToE to capture my interest, but for me personally, the album didn't have a long shelf life (been a couple of years since I even listened to it -- need to go back and re-listen). If memory serves, however, while there were a couple of really good songs, and more streamlined song sections, I believe I was unimpressed with how "samey" the record was, dynamics-wise. Again, it has been a while, so don't hold me to that. Need to re-listen. But without Moore, and without Portnoy, you've got two of the original three main writers of the band missing. 

I'm not a mega DT fan these days, to my ear, they sorta lost me over the years. But I very much respect their place in history. Cool thread.

[Jester]

My gut reaction is probably not, but that has conditions.

First, debut album.  I'm almost glad that I did not discover WDADU until I went to an IAW era concert.  If that was my first exposure to the band, I might not have given DT a chance a few later with IAW.  So by debut, I'm going to instead change the condition to DT's breakout album.

Now if DT released ADTOE in 2011, probably not.  If DT released the breakout album ADTOE in 1992, then probably yes.  A lot of my fandom came about not just because of IAW in a vacuum, but because the time frame of the release.  It was right around the time I was really going back and forth between prog (early Genesis, Yes and similar), Megadeth style metal and guitar hero shred.  DT was the first breakout band to combine all of these elements so perfectly with IAW.  Fates Warning and Queensryche were in the ballpark, but Queensryche didn't really have the Metalideth *balls* and Fates Warning weren't as focused and "hooky" in their songwriting as DT.

DT's prog metal brand was going to happen with or without Dream Theater.  So if they didn't breakout until 2011 with ADToE, I don't think I would be all that blown away.  They might even be relegated to the passing prog metal over-saturated clone dimension where I check them out, but then quickly move on.

The stars really aligned for DT with I&W.  Even though metal was more in vogue in the 80s, I'm not sure they would have done as well if I&W came out in 1987-89.

[SchecterShredder]

I would have loved the first album, been insanely disappointing by the second, and then thought the third was an improvement but that they were a one-album wonder.

This guy gets it.

When I ranked albums ADToE was 4th best, whereas DT12 and TA were 2nd and 3rd worst, respectively. Doubt I would have been a fan had ADToE been their debut.

[Tony From Long Island]

Of the 14 albums  (including change of seasons), I rank ADTOE 11th and DT12 9th.     However,    1 - 13 are all so close it's hard.

Astonishing is 14th by a mile on my list.   So, yes, I would have been a fan if ADTOE was first and then D12, but TA would have raised my eyebrow a lot more than it did since they have so much great stuff before it.     I am very anxious to see if they can  "fix" what went wrong with TA  (in my opinion)

[cramx3]

Yes, ADTOE is ridiculously good although I am not sure OTBOA (which is a middle of the pack DT song for me) would have been enough to draw me into listening to the album had I not known at all what the rest of the band/album was about.

However, and I say this as a big fan of TA.  If TA was their only album, I don't think I ever would have given it the chance to be liked due to the complexity and length.  I wasn't even crazy about it after my first listen, it was after multiple listens (and now we are talking about hours of listening) that I started to fall in love.  I don't think I would devote such time to a band I was not familiar with enough.

[Enigmachine]

If TA was their only album, I don't think I ever would have given it the chance to be liked due to the complexity and length.

Is it really that complex though?

[cramx3]

If TA was their only album, I don't think I ever would have given it the chance to be liked due to the complexity and length.

Is it really that complex though?

To me, yes.  It took awhile before I picked up on all the musical themes throughout the album that made it much more enjoyable.  I'm not a musician or anything so maybe it's a little more complex for me.

[bosk1]

If TA was their only album, I don't think I ever would have given it the chance to be liked due to the complexity and length.

Is it really that complex though?

Yes

[Adami]

It's complex in a different way for Dream Theater. It's not super complex from a technical standpoint, but it's quite complex from a composing standpoint. We just usually associate DT with the technical stuff only.

[ariich]

ADTOE is absolutely excellent, so definitely yes. Whether I'd be as BIG a fan without SDOIT and I&W, I don't know, but I'd definitely be a fan.

[Tony From Long Island]

If TA was their only album, I don't think I ever would have given it the chance to be liked due to the complexity and length.

Is it really that complex though?

Yes

If you can get past the pretty unrealistic story the music is not really anymore complex than anything else DT has done, but it takes more concentration to follow - storyline, which character is singing, how does it all fit together . . .

Bosk, interesting Scalia quote....  is it because you like the quote or disagree with the decision?

[Enigmachine]

I guess it's more complex on a macro scale with the arrangement of the entire album + the placement of different reprises. Maybe also on a micro scale with certain songs (The Gift of Music, Dystopian Overture, Three Days, Lord Nafaryus, A New Beginning, Moment of Betreyal, The Path That Divides, The Walking Shadow, My Last Farewell and A Life Left Behind) being about as complex in terms of both structure and technicality as the average DT song. It's just that there is a significant portion that isn't like those songs.

[bosk1]

If you can get past the pretty unrealistic story the music is not really anymore complex than anything else DT has done, but it takes more concentration to follow - storyline, which character is singing, how does it all fit together . . .

I would agree with you that "the music is not really anymore complex than anything else DT has done."  But that does not mean this album is not complex.  It is.  Their music in general is complex.  This album is no exception.  Perhaps some elements of structural complexity that they have used elsewhere, primarily on longer songs including their true "epics" are absent due to the shorter, more concise nature of most of these songs.  But the diverse and clever use of character and place themes is just one example of a level of complexity that is used here much more than other albums.  A casual viewing of the three behind-the-scenes videos they have released so far gives a bit of a window into that.  Long-time fans can become so used to their music that we are almost numb to how complex it is.  But the complexity has always been present, and this album is no exception.

[cramx3]

But past that and on topic, regarding the complexity of the album, I would agree with you that "the music is not really anymore complex than anything else DT has done."  But that does not mean this album is not complex.  It is.  Their music in general is complex.  This album is no exception.  Perhaps some elements of structural complexity that they have used elsewhere, primarily on longer songs including their true "epics" are absent due to the shorter, more concise nature of most of these songs.  But the diverse and clever use of character and place themes is just one example of a level of complexity that is used here much more than other albums.  A casual viewing of the three behind-the-scenes videos they have released so far gives a bit of a window into that.  Long-time fans can become so used to their music that we are almost numb to how complex it is.  But the complexity has always been present, and this album is no exception.

Yea I agree about the music being no more complex than the rest of the catalogue but it's the sum of all the parts that make this album complex.  Plus the length.  While I don't think length directly correlates to complexity, there are musical themes that you hear and don't hear again for quite some time on the album.  Before you fully digest, you might not pick that up.  I certainly didn't.  For example, the wait for sleep reprise in Learning to Live is not that far off from the song wait for sleep when you listen to Images & Words making it much easier to spot and appreciate.  The evangaline theme in TA comes up in the beginning of act1 and then doesnt come back until the end of act 1.  Like 65 minutes later.  It's harder to pick up on that stuff without giving the music time it needs to digest. (although I think my own example is one of the easier themes to pick up on) 

[mikeyd23]

I listened to ADTOE at work today for the first time in a long while.... This album has aged really well for me. There's a lot to like with this album.

[Tony From Long Island]

I didn't particularly care for ADTOE of events at first, but it grew on me quickly.  D12 I loved from the start (except for illumination theory).        I've posted my opinion about the lyrics of Looking Glass, so no need to rehash that.     I had hoped that TA would grow on me.  Sadly, it didn't.

[TheGreatPretender]

It's hard to say, because honestly, I can't say for certain that without Dream Theater I'd have gotten into Rock and Metal at all. They're definitely a huge part of my 'inauguration' into Rock music, so if I had gotten into it without DT's influence, it's really hard to say what my personal tastes would be like now. But let's say I was still drawn to intricate and complex instrumental sections, then I think Outcry and BITS would have at least piqued my interest and made me want to check out the band.

[cramx3]

I think Outcry and BITS would have at least piqued my interest and made me want to check out the band.

Yea, if these were the first songs I had heard from DT, I am pretty sure I would have dug deeper to check out the band and album.