Need advice with my next DT album.

[Disciple_Kickstand]

Falling into infinity is a really mixed bag for me. At first I didn't like the record at all, and could hardly sit through Anna Lee to the rest of it before switching albums.  What really ganged my perspective on FII is actually the live at the budokan album, the three FII songs on there are so good, particularly trial of tears (which I rarely ever got to when listening, and everytime I did I was already mentally checked out). Once I realized how good these songs were I was able to go back to FII with fresh ears.  I'm still only into half the album, but the songs that I do like I really like, enough to lift fII out of the last place in my DT album rankings.
The good: New Millennium, Peruvian Skies, Hells Kitchen, Hollow Years, lines in the sand,  Trial of tears.

The really bad : the rest.

[SebastianPratesi]

The good: New Millennium, Peruvian Skies, Hells Kitchen, Hollow Years, lines in the sand,  Trial of tears.

The really bad : the rest.

My The good list is pretty much the same as yours. The only song I would change is "Lines In The Sand" for "Take Away My Pain".

[Dream Team]

The good: New Millennium, Peruvian Skies, Hells Kitchen, Hollow Years, lines in the sand,  Trial of tears.

The really bad : the rest.

My The good list is pretty much the same as yours. The only song I would change is "Lines In The Sand" for "Take Away My Pain".

I agree, TAMP is under-appreciated.

[bosk1]

I really enjoy it a lot as well and have been hoping for it to re-emerge in a live set.  Problem is, they have written some incredibly strong ballads on the three most recent albums, so the likelihood of a "ballad spot" in a set being filled by an older song has been slim.

[Dublagent66]

The good: New Millennium, Peruvian Skies, Hells Kitchen, Hollow Years, lines in the sand,  Trial of tears.

The really bad : the rest.

There's nothing "really bad" on FII.  YNM is ok, not really bad.  AL and TAMP are pretty damn good.  JLMB is catchy as hell.  FII is still under-appreciated after all these years.

I really enjoy it a lot as well and have been hoping for it to re-emerge in a live set.  Problem is, they have written some incredibly strong ballads on the three most recent albums, so the likelihood of a "ballad spot" in a set being filled by an older song has been slim.

TAMP is stronger than any of their recent ballads, IMO.  Would love to see that live, but will probably never happen.

[BlobVanDam]

The good: New Millennium, Peruvian Skies, Hells Kitchen, Hollow Years, lines in the sand,  Trial of tears.

The really bad : the rest.

There's nothing "really bad" on FII.  YNM is ok, not really bad.  AL and TAMP are pretty damn good.  JLMB is catchy as hell.  FII is still under-appreciated after all these years.

The supporting tracks are definitely underrated, even YNM. I absolutely hated FII at first, and maybe it does take some time to get into for new fans who have an expectation of what a DT album should be, but I grew to love it on its own merits, and even as my least favourite track, YNM is still plenty listenable in the context of the album. Crap placement though. Don't put that thing second.

TAMP probably took the longest for me to enjoy due to its odd vibe, but it's a nice song, and dat guitar solo! So under-appreciated. JLMB was the first song I loved from the album after hearing LSFNY, and I still love it. A great little rocker. It took Budokan to really get me to appreciate the album though, with its amazing versions of New Millennium, Hollow Years and Trial of Tears.

[soupytwist]

Six Degrees - Love, absolutely love the second half of this album.   It's interesting they decided to split the songs up rather than having one very (very, very...) long song.   

For the title song, Mike Portnoy felt that, putting the track breaks in between the different movements so that people could sometimes skip to a particular movement if they wanted would be appreciated by the fans.  So that's why you have the unusual situation of having a single song with track breaks in it.  And given that the song is over 42 minutes and that people sometimes only want to listen to parts, it was a good move.   

Infinity - I only got this yesterday and it's only had a couple of plays, I initial feeling are this won't be amoung my favs.  All the other albums I've heard so far feel like albums, this however feels like a collection of songs.   That's not to say it's a dead loss at all - i'm enjoying it, the slower tempo songs are nice (Peruvian Skies, Hollow Years & Take Away the Pain) - on the flipside 'Burning My Soul' probably takes the biscuit for my worst DT song and 'You Not Me' while catchy sounds nothing like DT!! 

A few notes, in case you were unaware:

This album was rewritten by the band several times because there had been a ton of turnover at the label, and combined with the change in direction in the music industry in the '90s, they were faced with label decision makers who didn't "get" what the band were trying to do, and kept rejecting earlier versions of the album.  Consequently, the band reworked a bunch of songs, and wrote a bunch more than were originally planned for the album (although Portnoy and possibly some of the other band members initially pushed for a double album so they could release them all; that idea was also rejected by the label).

One of the casualties of that process was You Or Me.  That song was rewritten by Desmond Child, and became You Not Me.  So your feeling that it sounds nothing like DT is actually spot on.  Desmond Child has written a LOT of really great rock for a lot of good bands throughout the years, but this song was definitely a "miss" in the minds of most (myself included). 

Burning My Soul and Take Away My Pain are examples of other songs that were reworked and changed from their original form (although the rewrites on the other songs had more band involvement than You Not Me). 

All in all, it is a strange sounding album for DT, and the reason is largely what I pointed out above.  If you are interested in hearing some of the songs in their earlier forms and hearing some of the stuff that did not get released, I recommend two releases from the Official Bootleg series put out by the band, which you can order here:  https://www.ytsejamrecords.com/
-The Falling Into Infinity Demos:  This double CD set includes the original forms of the songs that were eventually reworked for the album, as well as those that did not make the cut.  That includes the early instrumental demo of Metropolis pt. 2.  Detailed liner notes from Mike Portnoy describe in detail what the band was going through during this period of their history and how the band almost broke up.
-Old Bridge, New JERSEY - 12/14/96:  I believe this is one of the "fix for '96" shows, where the band took a break from the writing/recording process to just get out and play some songs for the fans who were basically just sitting around wondering if and when we were ever going to get a new DT album (Setlist Scotty will likely correct me if my memory is inaccurate here).  At this show, in addition to some great renditions of songs from I&W, Awake, and parts of A Change of Seasons, you also get some early takes on some of the Falling Into Infinity songs in a live setting.  Perhaps the rarest gem on this set is the live version of Caught In A Web.  This is a completely different version of the song, and you can clearly hear how parts of this version of the song eventually grew to become New Millenium. 

Sorry for the wordy post if you were already aware of the above.  But I felt the information could be helpful if you were unaware.

Thanks for taking the time to write all that down!  That does explain a few thing I've felt when listening to infinity.

I've actually broken my cycle of one album a week and gone out brought Systematic and Awake, i'm hooked now!
I'm listening to Systematic for the first time now - currently on 'Constant Motion' which sounds like James Hetfield is doing the vocals, i'm not sure how I feel about this yet!!   The first two songs sounded cool upon first listen.

[soupytwist]

Just completed my first listen to Systematic - it wasn't the perfect first listen due to cat issues

It'll take way more listens to get a proper feeling, but the thing that stood out was all that 'Dark Master' stuff on the final strack...a little bit cringey that! 

[soupytwist]

Had the chance to give Systematic a couple more plays, as always a lot to take in with a new DT album - my initial reaction is to label this album the 'angry' one, does that sound about right?

[BlobVanDam]

Angry isn't a word I'd use. Dark and aggressive at times, but I don't feel much anger from the fantasy lyrics or the general musical style.

[soupytwist]

Aggressive might be better then.

Like the chorus on 'Eternal Night' but those growling vocals on the verses are hard work, I can see this being a skip track sadly.

[Dream Team]

Aggressive might be better then.

Like the chorus on 'Eternal Night' but those growling vocals on the verses are hard work, I can see this being a skip track sadly.

Yup, I hate that song.

[Train of Naught]

There's no growling in Dream Theater guys 

Anyway I really like SC, Repentance is still one I tend to skip though, but the big epic is one of my favorite DT songs ever, part 1 and 2 together.

[BlobVanDam]

So underrated. Song and album.

There's no growling in Dream Theater guys 

And this.

[soupytwist]

Ministry of Lost Souls is the song that really standing out for me at the minute - absolutely adore those last 3 or so minutes.

[hefdaddy42]

For me, SC can be a "fun" album (at least, most of it), but all of the attraction is on the surface.  There isn't much depth there, the way that I find on albums like Awake or 6DOIT.  The songs on those albums really matter - there is a lot of meaning there, both lyrically and compositionally.

But SC is fun to listen to in the car, and that's it, for me.  Otherwise, I can take it or leave it.

[Dublagent66]

SC vs DT12 or TA.


SC every time.  Easily.

[JediKnight1969]

SC vs DT12 or TA.


SC every time.  Easily.

Agree.

[Train of Naught]

SC vs DT12 or TA.


SC every time.  Easily.

Agree.

Thirded.

[Hanz Gruber]

Ministry of Lost Souls is the song that really standing out for me at the minute - absolutely adore those last 3 or so minutes.

Systematic Chaos is one of my least favorite CDs of theirs but I always loved Ministry of Lost Souls.

[Dublagent66]

Ministry of Lost Souls is the song that really standing out for me at the minute - absolutely adore those last 3 or so minutes.

Systematic Chaos is one of my least favorite CDs of theirs but I always loved Ministry of Lost Souls.

TMoLS has gotten a lot more love in recent years than it did in the beginning.  I've always liked it...a lot.   

[BlobVanDam]

Ministry of Lost Souls is the song that really standing out for me at the minute - absolutely adore those last 3 or so minutes.

Systematic Chaos is one of my least favorite CDs of theirs but I always loved Ministry of Lost Souls.

TMoLS has gotten a lot more love in recent years than it did in the beginning.  I've always liked it...a lot.   

Has it? I can't say I ever see it mentioned.
I think it's a really beautiful and underrated song. The instrumental section goes a little long for my taste, but the excellent guitar solo makes up for that, and the rest of the song is so unique.

[hefdaddy42]

Yeah, I like that song too.  But I think it suffered in the live environment, unlike most of their songs.  Definitely 100% best on the studio recording, no ifs, ands, or buts.

[KevShmev]

Yep, I agree with that.  The Ministry of Lost Souls is one of those songs that just didn't work live, likely because the pacing of it is so slow at times and when you combine that with its length, it just didn't have a chance live. The crowd looks bored beyond tears with it on Chaos on Motion. 

The Dark Eternal Night, for a while now, I have called their "big dumb metal song."  For what it is, it is highly enjoyable.  It really stands out in their catalog, since they don't have any other song like it, and it sure does rock.

Constant Motion (despite the great riff and guitar solo) still stands out as the major clunker on SC, and Prophets of War isn't very good either.  Forsaken is a bit lacking (the chorus always sounds like it lacks oomph, as if it needed more work to tweak the melodies and make it better), but does have that cool lead piano and another great solo.

ITPOE is good, but not great.

[jayvee3]

SC vs DT12 or TA.


SC every time.  Easily.

SC is better than many make out, but it is nowhere near either of these two albums in my book. I'll take DT12 and the Astonishing each and every time over SC.

Seeing as the original post was about him already deciding he loves the newest album and in later threads seems not as convinced with SC, your point of this post really adds little to the conversation. Of course, it wouldn't be a normal thread if you didn't use each and every opportunity to post your dislike for the last two albums. We kinda get it by now.

[1neeto]

ACOS and prepare to be completely blown away.

[SebastianPratesi]

For a long time, from Systematic Chaos I only listened to "The Dark Eternal Night" and "In The Presence Of Enemies". Recently, I decided to re-discover the other songs. I've started liking "Repentance" (such a different mood).

Constant Motion (despite the great riff and guitar solo) still stands out as the major clunker on SC, and Prophets of War isn't very good either. 

I used to agree in both cases, but now I like both songs. "Prophets Of War" has so much going on in only 6 minutes, and "Constant Motion" features really cool eastern-like riffs (after the second verse & beginning the instrumental section), and a short spotlight moment for JM.

On that note: I tend to think that the eastern-like riffs are usually written by JM. Other recent examples would be the "A Rite Of Passage" intro riff. Has there been any talk about JMs writing input in this forum? It seems to me that his input is not much, and sparse, but recognizable.

[BlobVanDam]

On that note: I tend to think that the eastern-like riffs are usually written by JM. Other recent examples would be the "A Rite Of Passage" intro riff. Has there been any talk about JMs writing input in this forum? It seems to me that his input is not much, and sparse, but recognizable.

JM didn't write the AROP intro riff. Not sure what you're basing that eastern riff idea on either. I don't know that much of the music that he's confirmed to have written has any specific influence or feel to it.

[Enigmachine]

On that note: I tend to think that the eastern-like riffs are usually written by JM. Other recent examples would be the "A Rite Of Passage" intro riff. Has there been any talk about JMs writing input in this forum? It seems to me that his input is not much, and sparse, but recognizable.

JM didn't write the AROP intro riff. Not sure what you're basing that eastern riff idea on either. I don't know that much of the music that he's confirmed to have written has any specific influence or feel to it.

Wasn't it actually MP who wrote that riff?

[SebastianPratesi]

JM didn't write the AROP intro riff. Not sure what you're basing that eastern riff idea on either. I don't know that much of the music that he's confirmed to have written has any specific influence or feel to it.

I didn't say he wrote it, but that I tend to think so - as in "Well, he's featured all by himself in the bit - he probably wrote it". Of course I wasn't sure, since I haven't read any statement from John or the band about it. But, based on your (and Enigmachine's) post, I suppose it's been confirmed he didn't write.

About the eastern influence: well, maybe that's the vibe I get - it's in a minor context, but it has a major third, and a minor second. As for "Constant Motion" during the guitar solo, the bass riff has a minor second too. The traditional greek/armenian music I've listened to has many riffs and scales which sound similar to those DT moments. Maybe 'eastern' is not the correct word, though.

If I recall correctly, when I was lurking last year, I found this interesting discussion (can't remember in which thread it was) about JM's signature writing style; some members were speculating that the riffs which had this dynamic going on consisting of 'fast/steady + short pause' (I'm thinking the "Constant Motion" riff at 2:48, or the one in the pre-choruses of "Home", or the first riff during the solo in "The Looking Glass" at 3:07), were probably written by JM. This theory somehow makes sense to me, and that's what I meant with "recognizable".

Although, now I think about it, I agree with you that not all of the stuff he does feels eastern-y. The "Breaking All Illusions" verse, the "Vacant" melody which is reprised by the guitar in the instrumental, the harmonics in "Lifting Shadows Off A Dream"...

Is there any interview or article you might know about on JM's writing input? I'm honestly curious, it would be an interesting read for me. Thanks!

[Dublagent66]

SC vs DT12 or TA.


SC every time.  Easily.

SC is better than many make out, but it is nowhere near either of these two albums in my book. I'll take DT12 and the Astonishing each and every time over SC.

Seeing as the original post was about him already deciding he loves the newest album and in later threads seems not as convinced with SC, your point of this post really adds little to the conversation. Of course, it wouldn't be a normal thread if you didn't use each and every opportunity to post your dislike for the last two albums. We kinda get it by now.

Good.  Glad I bring normalcy.   So, if you had actually agreed with my post, then it would've been ok?  I was adding to the prior posts regarding SC and comparing it to recent material.  Ever since I've been here, people have always compared likes and dislikes of albums.  Nothing wrong with it and apparently some others agree with me.  If you don't agree, that's fine.  However, it's not normally excepted to suppress other people's opinions if you don't like them.  I learned that early on when people were bashing the hell out of SC back in the day.   

Ministry of Lost Souls is the song that really standing out for me at the minute - absolutely adore those last 3 or so minutes.

Systematic Chaos is one of my least favorite CDs of theirs but I always loved Ministry of Lost Souls.

TMoLS has gotten a lot more love in recent years than it did in the beginning.  I've always liked it...a lot.   

Has it? I can't say I ever see it mentioned.
I think it's a really beautiful and underrated song. The instrumental section goes a little long for my taste, but the excellent guitar solo makes up for that, and the rest of the song is so unique.

Yes, I think it has.  I've seen quite a few positive responses in recent years as the fan base has grown.  I also think that some have grown to like it if they didn't at first and it has aged well for those who initially like it.  You're right, it still is underrated but maybe not as much as it used to be.

[soupytwist]

Hi again guys.

I've nearly completed my DT journey.  In a few days time it's my Birthday (40, gulp) and I'll finally be getting my hands on The Astonishing.  Anyway in the past month I've brought all the albums between Image & Words and DT12 and it's been great, so many great songs, I haven't listened to any other band!  So as each album has had at least 5 plays now I thought I'd try to do a tentative list....

*I'm without internet at home at the minute due to just moving house - so this is being written at work, so you'll have to forgive the rather poor writing quality!

Six Degrees.

People will probably stop reading now and head off to the shed to get their pitchforks!   Let me explain, I've enjoyed all the DT albums - there isn't a bad album among them.   However there has to be a least favourite and here we are.   There are a couple of reasons why, firstly I'm not a huge fan of Disk 1 - I like Misunderstood and Disappear but the other 3 aren't so good for me, the biggest offender is 'The Great Debate'  (There are only 3 DT songs I actively dislike and this is the first) which I just find boring.  The second issue is there isn't a song on the album that would break into my top 20 DT songs, probably the only album that wouldn't have at least 1 representative.   On the plus side I do enjoy Disk 2 the whole is probably better than the sum.

Best Tracks : Solitary Shell, Disappear & About To Crash.
Weakest Track : The Great Debate.

Falling Into Infinity.

Most if not all the other DT albums feel like cohesive bodies of work, Infinity feels like a collection of songs tossed together.  Having read the history of this album which someone kindly wrote out in this thread it makes more sense.   Personally I rather enjoy the mellow songs on this album Peruvian Skies, Hollow Years, Take Away My Pain and Anna Lee are certainly among the highlights.   The rest of the album is a bit of a mismatch with 'Burning My Soul' being the second of the DT songs I dislike - this time because it's just such a bog standard generic song.   The one other song that really stand out in the might Trial of Tears an outstanding conclusion to a mixed bag of an album.

Best Tracks : Trial of Tears, Peruvian Skies & Anna Lee.
Weakest Track : Burning My Soul.

In tier list form those two albums would represent the bottom tier - again to clarify I enjoy both, they are still decent albums - and would be 6/10 for me.   The bold song is my favourite, if that isn't obvious. 
The next tier is a tough one to rank, but here we go.

Systematic Chaos.

This albums position is very much defined by two songs.  On the negative side 'The Dark Eternal Night' is the 3rd of my dislike tracks, while ' Ministry of Lost Souls' is a absolute masterpiece (top 5 for me).  Of the remaining tracks both Presence tracks are great (although the 'Dark Master' stuff is a bit cringe), Forsaken is a solid song with a catchy chorus.   Constant Motion sounds like James Hetfield was subbed in for vocal duty, but is a decent effort.   Overall the album has quite an aggressive tone.

Best Tracks : Ministry of Lost Souls, Presence of Enemies & Forsaken.
Worst Track : Dark Eternal Night.

Awake.

As my newest addition this album has the most room for maneuver, simply because Ive had less time with it.   This album really comes out of the blocks firing on all cylinders - the 1,2,3 punch of the first three tracks is outstanding, and actually those tracks are my favourites - if that quality was maintained thoughout the rest of the album then this would be taking the top spot.  The biggest disapointment for me is Space-Dye Vest after hearing so many good things about it, I'm left underwhelmed by it to be honest.  Right in the center of the album is another highlight in 'The Silent Man'.   Really and truthfully I need more time with this album, but right now this placing feels right - with potential to grew.

Best Tracks : Innocence Faded, 6:00, Caught In a Web.
Worst Track : Erotomania.

Dream Theater.

The safe album - therefore making it hard to write about.   The most interesting thing I can think to write about this is the first 4 tracks are in my opinion the weakest, everything from 'The Bigger Picture' onwards is pretty great.   This would probably be a pretty cool introduction to DT album, everything is well done and easy on the ear - but perhaps lacks that important spark to push it into the next tier.

Best Tracks : The Bigger Picture, Behind the Veil, Along for the Ride.
Weakest Track : Enigma Machine.

Image and Words.

This album have been a big climber for me, upon the first few listens I kind off zoned out in the middle tracks.  'Take the Time' was a song a wasn't keen on at all for while, it sounded different to the normal DT stuff almost funky in parts - but how I love it.  I'm still not overly keen on the way 'Pull Me Under' just stops, I find that jarring and lessens the song for me.  The highlight for a lot of people on this album seems to be 'Metropolis Pt 1' yet for me this isn't one of the better tracks, in fact it may be the weakest (pitchforks at the ready again). 

Best Tracks : Another Day, Take the Time, Learning to Live.
Weakest Track : Metropolis Pt 1 (Sorry...)

Black Clouds & Silver Linings.

The Gothic album.  If a couple of songs had been reigned in a little this album could have been a masterpiece - the most guilty of this is 'A Nightmare to Remember' a brilliant song, let down by a weak final quarter.  Truth be told i'm not a massive fan of the Twelve-Stop suite in general - the 5 tracks tend to be among my weakest track on their respective albums, and here we have the final track in that step with 'The Shattered Fortress' which feels a bit of a collection of the previous tracks - it's an OK track but a bit overlong again and easily the weakest track on the album.   The Count, Oh boy what a song this is, it flows so well.

Best Tracks : The Count, Rite of Passage & Wither.
Worst Track : The Shattered Fortress.

That is the end of the second (and biggest tier) the albums above are 7-8/10 quality in my opinion.

Train of Thought.

The biggest surprise to me is just how much I love this album.  It's generally regarded as the 'heavy' one - and not really be a metal head I wasn't expecting much from this album to be honest - but Wow.  First a word for 'Vacant' at under 3 minutes and a soft piece on a album full of metal it shouldn't work, but my God it is amazing.   The other two tracks that stand out for me are 'Endless Sacrifice' and 'Name of God' both great, great songs. 

Best Tracks : Name of God, Endless Sacrifice & Vacant.
Weakest Track : Honor Thy Father.

Metropolis Pt.2

That intro to Home - Oh Hell Yeah!   
It's hard to place this as it's a concept album and like all the best concept albums it has to listened to in it's entirety to fully enjoy.   However after saying that their are some amazing individual parts to that album and nothing really that stands out of weak or disrupts the flow of the story.

Best Tracks : Home, The Spirit Lives On, Through My Eyes.
Weakest Track : Finally Free (not remotely bad, just overlong).

That concludes the 9/10 tier.  Onto the final tier.

Octavarium.

I'm struggling to think of an album that has a better last two tracks.  There is a definate Muse influence on a couple of the tracks here (Muse : Absolution era - when Muse were still great!) being 'Panic Attack' and 'Never Enough'.  'The Answer Lies Within' is possibly my favourite DT ballad.  Even the song from the Twelve Step Suite 'Root of all Evil' is my favourite step.  All in all a stunning album, all pipped to the number one spot by a tiny margin.

Best Tracks : Octavarium, Sacrificed Sons & Answer Lies Within.
Weakest Track : I Walk Beside You (a tad cheesy).

A Dramatic Turn of Events.

M-E-L-O-D-Y.  This album is just a joy to listen too.  It's chock full of great songs and barely puts a foot wrong, but going back to that key word again it's the melodies on the album that really shine, this is the DT album tailor made for the style of music I enjoy.  If I have to find fault it's in the production side of the album - you really have to turn it up to get the full effect.

Best Tracks : Bridges in the Sky, Breaking all Illusions & Beneath the Surface.
Weakest Track : Outcry.

[BlobVanDam]

I don't even......

[soupytwist]

I don't even......

That good hey

[BlobVanDam]

Sorry.