Your thoughts with a tour just about The astonishing

[ariich]

Are you surprised Rumbo that an adventurous album is getting reviews like that?  Most DT fans want a heavier DT.  I for one want them to not stay stagnant ad try something different with each album.

Oh, so do I of course.
But, I think the argument of "this is all the metalheads being disappointed that the album is so soft" is too easy to be true. If you look at the reviews on those sites, not a single one even brings up the album's softness. Frankly, the ones I've seen criticize the album on grounds that are perfectly valid: a very weak story, only a few good sections stretched out over two CDs, and amateurish secondary media presentation.
Again, I am happy DT is once again stepping out of their comfort zone. But this attempt, IMHO, nowhere near worked.

I don't know why you treat DTF as a microcosm but then treat RYM and Sputnik as being representative of the wider world. Those two sites are very indie communities with a lot of people who dislike DT at the best of times, who were always going to find a 2-disc rock opera pompous and over the top regardless of what it was like. I think you give those two sites far too much credit.

I'm not suggesting for a second that DTF is representative, but neither are those. Actual professional reviews are, on the whole, very positive towards the album. And places where DT or DT-like music are genreally popular, such as Progarchives, are very very positive.

[Enigmachine]

Are you surprised Rumbo that an adventurous album is getting reviews like that?  Most DT fans want a heavier DT.  I for one want them to not stay stagnant ad try something different with each album.

Oh, so do I of course.
But, I think the argument of "this is all the metalheads being disappointed that the album is so soft" is too easy to be true. If you look at the reviews on those sites, not a single one even brings up the album's softness. Frankly, the ones I've seen criticize the album on grounds that are perfectly valid: a very weak story, only a few good sections stretched out over two CDs, and amateurish secondary media presentation.
Again, I am happy DT is once again stepping out of their comfort zone. But this attempt, IMHO, nowhere near worked.

I don't know why you treat DTF as a microcosm but then treat RYM and Sputnik as being representative of the wider world. Those two sites are very indie communities with a lot of people who dislike DT at the best of times, who were always going to find a 2-disc rock opera pompous and over the top regardless of what it was like. I think you give those two sites far too much credit.

I'm not suggesting for a second the DTF is representative, but neither are those. Actual professional reviews are, on the whole, very positive towards the album. And places where DT or DT-like music are genreally popular, such as Progarchives, are very very positive.

This. Also, I'm guessing that most DT fans aren't active on the internet and instead just silently support them by buying albums and going to see them live.

[ytserush]

I think the way they are choosing to do this is awesome.

Can't wait.

May be the only Dream Theater show that I won't be singing at, however.

[rumborak]

ariich,

it's a weird argument to say that Sputnik and RYM, which up until recently had people who gave ADTOE and DT12 a solid middle-range rating (3.15 and 3.19 respectively), is now comprised of ADD kids who don't have the attention span to listen to a DT album and thus gave TA a rating of 2.74.

[ariich]

ariich,

it's a weird argument to say that Sputnik and RYM, which up until recently had people who gave ADTOE and DT12 a solid middle-range rating (3.15 and 3.19 respectively), is now comprised of ADD kids who don't have the attention span to listen to a DT album and thus gave TA a rating of 2.74.

I never said or even suggested that.

[KevShmev]

ariich,

it's a weird argument to say that Sputnik and RYM, which up until recently had people who gave ADTOE and DT12 a solid middle-range rating (3.15 and 3.19 respectively), is now comprised of ADD kids who don't have the attention span to listen to a DT album and thus gave TA a rating of 2.74.

I think it's a better argument to say that the ratings at sites like that are fairly irrelevant.  I mean, who cares what a bunch of jugheads at Sputnik think?

[ariich]

ariich,

it's a weird argument to say that Sputnik and RYM, which up until recently had people who gave ADTOE and DT12 a solid middle-range rating (3.15 and 3.19 respectively), is now comprised of ADD kids who don't have the attention span to listen to a DT album and thus gave TA a rating of 2.74.

I think it's a better argument to say that the ratings at sites like that are fairly irrelevant.  I mean, who cares what a bunch of jugheads at Sputnik think?

This was, more or less, my point.

[Thematt202]

I'm shocked that people think this album only has a few memorable parts.  I think it's by far the most consistent album they've released.  All the others, even, SFaM and Images had lower quality sections.  This one is just pure majesty and melody from start to finish.  It's astoni... Really, really good.

[Enigmachine]

I'm shocked that people think this album only has a few memorable parts.  I think it's by far the most consistent album they've released.  All the others, even, SFaM and Images had lower quality sections.  This one is just pure majesty and melody from start to finish.  It's astoni... Really, really good.

I don't agree with the thoughts on the other albums, but TA is stunningly consistent for a 130 minute album. Still can't get my head around how it's that long when it sure doesn't feel like it.

[Dream Team]

I'm shocked that people think this album only has a few memorable parts.  I think it's by far the most consistent album they've released.  All the others, even, SFaM and Images had lower quality sections.  This one is just pure majesty and melody from start to finish.  It's astoni... Really, really good.

Yeah, SFAM has quite a few very extended jams that took you out of the story.

[erwinrafael]

So this is the company that will do the visual for The Astonishing.

https://lucionmedia.ca/en/?page_id=1151

Portfolio looks good.

[pdurbin22]

25 times I have seen them live since back in 1993. Was very happy and excited a few weeks ago to get a ticket for the World Premiere of TA at the famous London Palladium but now......after hearing the album, the ticket is up for sale, can't sit through all that I'm afraid

You love them enough to have seen them 25 times, but don't like this enough to see it live? I'm not criticizing - that's just really surprising. This will be my 21st show and I'm thrilled to see something so unique. I'll happily take a break from "Metropolis Pt 1," "Panic Attack," etc.

[cramx3]

25 times I have seen them live since back in 1993. Was very happy and excited a few weeks ago to get a ticket for the World Premiere of TA at the famous London Palladium but now......after hearing the album, the ticket is up for sale, can't sit through all that I'm afraid

You love them enough to have seen them 25 times, but don't like this enough to see it live? I'm not criticizing - that's just really surprising. This will be my 21st show and I'm thrilled to see something so unique. I'll happily take a break from "Metropolis Pt 1," "Panic Attack," etc.

Agreed, this show will be a nice change of pace for typical DT concert and I am very much looking forward to it.

[hefdaddy42]

So this is the company that will do the visual for The Astonishing.

https://lucionmedia.ca/en/?page_id=1151

Portfolio looks good.

Sweet!

[snapple]

I don't see DT often, so no, I will not be seeing them on this tour.

[ariich]

So this is the company that will do the visual for The Astonishing.

https://lucionmedia.ca/en/?page_id=1151

Portfolio looks good.

How'd you find that out?

[SystematicThought]

Rudess mentioned it in an interview recently.

https://loudwire.com/dream-theater-jordan-rudess-the-astonishing-happy-birthday-fan/

[rumborak]

I am actually looking forward to seeing them live, there's never been a DT show I didn't at least see as an enjoyable evening of live performance.
The parts that will bug me were already visible in the Palladium videos: even more reliance on backing tracks, and the fact that James still records vocal lines he should know he can't deliver live.

[BlobVanDam]

I am actually looking forward to seeing them live, there's never been a DT show I didn't at least see as an enjoyable evening of live performance.
The parts that will bug me were already visible in the Palladium videos: even more reliance on backing tracks, and the fact that James still records vocal lines he should know he can't deliver live.

I listened to a few of the live clips from TA, and JLB was pushing it too hard on many of the notes and was flat at times, but I'm hoping it's just because it's the start of the tour and that once he's warmed up he'll be back in form. A lot of it wasn't notes that should have been too high for him.
I don't think many of the vocal lines on the new album were unreasonably high for him, and I actually prefer bands to create the best music they can in the studio and not concern themselves with pulling it off live. This album might be a special case given that it's designed as a rock opera to be performed, but I still stand by that.

[rumborak]

While I agree that an artist should lay down his best performance possible on a record, I feel a good vocal performance can be laid down in *any* register. James, or JP, still seem to think that soaringly high vocal lines are the main way to add dramatic effect. I wish they focused on the mid range when writing their vocal lines, because it would still be just as good, and James could sing it easily day by day. People always come out of live concerts with their ears ringing and proclaiming the vocals were on, but when you later listen to it at a reasonable volume, you realize that James these days struggles most of the time, not just occasionally.

[King Postwhore]

That is very true.  Rumbo, it's also at your most dreaded theater.

[ariich]

While I agree that an artist should lay down his best performance possible on a record, I feel a good vocal performance can be laid down in *any* register. James, or JP, still seem to think that soaringly high vocal lines are the main way to add dramatic effect. I wish they focused on the mid range when writing their vocal lines, because it would still be just as good, and James could sing it easily day by day. People always come out of live concerts with their ears ringing and proclaiming the vocals were on, but when you later listen to it at a reasonable volume, you realize that James these days struggles most of the time, not just occasionally.

Well, see on this point I actually agree entirely. But in the BCSL sort of era, a lot of other fans used to complain about James not doing enough high soaring vocals on the albums. Different strokes for different folks, but basically there's nothing that DT could do to please everyone on this point.

[genome]

While I agree that an artist should lay down his best performance possible on a record, I feel a good vocal performance can be laid down in *any* register. James, or JP, still seem to think that soaringly high vocal lines are the main way to add dramatic effect. I wish they focused on the mid range when writing their vocal lines, because it would still be just as good, and James could sing it easily day by day. People always come out of live concerts with their ears ringing and proclaiming the vocals were on, but when you later listen to it at a reasonable volume, you realize that James these days struggles most of the time, not just occasionally.

I have found this, it's weird - listening back to the Youtube videos of Thursday and Friday, he seems quite pitchy, but when I was there it sounded in tune unless it was noticeably out. I wonder why.

[rumborak]

While I agree that an artist should lay down his best performance possible on a record, I feel a good vocal performance can be laid down in *any* register. James, or JP, still seem to think that soaringly high vocal lines are the main way to add dramatic effect. I wish they focused on the mid range when writing their vocal lines, because it would still be just as good, and James could sing it easily day by day. People always come out of live concerts with their ears ringing and proclaiming the vocals were on, but when you later listen to it at a reasonable volume, you realize that James these days struggles most of the time, not just occasionally.

Well, see on this point I actually agree entirely. But in the BCSL sort of era, a lot of other fans used to complain about James not doing enough high soaring vocals on the albums. Different strokes for different folks, but basically there's nothing that DT could do to please everyone on this point.

I entirely agree, and indeed blame DT fans for a good chunk of it. The obsession with a stupid F# for example drives home the point for DT that apparently there are certain check marks they have to tick off, otherwise people will reject the music.

[King Postwhore]

Common sense is his range lowers over the years and the band should adjust as well as the fans expectations.

[rumborak]

While I agree that an artist should lay down his best performance possible on a record, I feel a good vocal performance can be laid down in *any* register. James, or JP, still seem to think that soaringly high vocal lines are the main way to add dramatic effect. I wish they focused on the mid range when writing their vocal lines, because it would still be just as good, and James could sing it easily day by day. People always come out of live concerts with their ears ringing and proclaiming the vocals were on, but when you later listen to it at a reasonable volume, you realize that James these days struggles most of the time, not just occasionally.

I have found this, it's weird - listening back to the Youtube videos of Thursday and Friday, he seems quite pitchy, but when I was there it sounded in tune unless it was noticeably out. I wonder why.

Pure and plain volume. What you *think* you hear at a concert has little to do with what you actually hear. Your brain fills in the correct pitch when you know the tune already. Ever been at a concert of a band that you know, and suddenly they start a song you don't know? Suddenly you find yourself in the situation that you can't even tell the basic structure of the song, because it's one loud mush. That is what you *always* hear, but when you know the tune, your brain fills it in.

[ariich]

While I agree that an artist should lay down his best performance possible on a record, I feel a good vocal performance can be laid down in *any* register. James, or JP, still seem to think that soaringly high vocal lines are the main way to add dramatic effect. I wish they focused on the mid range when writing their vocal lines, because it would still be just as good, and James could sing it easily day by day. People always come out of live concerts with their ears ringing and proclaiming the vocals were on, but when you later listen to it at a reasonable volume, you realize that James these days struggles most of the time, not just occasionally.

I have found this, it's weird - listening back to the Youtube videos of Thursday and Friday, he seems quite pitchy, but when I was there it sounded in tune unless it was noticeably out. I wonder why.

There's usually a couple of reasons.

One is that in the actual live setting we don't notice it as much because of all the reverb, the really loud volume, plus the general immersion of the experience.

But the other is that recordings tend to sound artificially worse than reality as well, unless they are recorded with high quality microphones. This is because the gig is (usually) really bloody loud, and the mic built in to a phone or small camera will normally distort a bit. There's one guy who uploaded 3 vids of the show on the 19th, sat in the Circle. He used a proper external mic plugged into his phone, which is why his should be a more accurate recording than most.

[Enigmachine]

I always wonder why people listen to low-quality youtube videos of live performances. It's not the way the band wanted you to experience it and doesn't reflect the atmosphere of the actual event.

[King Postwhore]

Because we can.  That's quite a silly statement.    Who doesn't know the quality is less than being there?

[Enigmachine]

Because we can.  That's quite a silly statement.    Who doesn't know the quality is less than being there?

So people watch those videos knowing that it's worse either an album or actually seeing it live? That sounds a bit more silly to me. ariich summed it up with:

One is that in the actual live setting we don't notice it as much because of all the reverb, the really loud volume, plus the general immersion of the experience.

But the other is that recordings tend to sound artificially worse than reality as well, unless they are recorded with high quality microphones. This is because the gig is (usually) really bloody loud, and the mic built in to a phone or small camera will normally distort a bit.

That recording distortion of the sound really detracts from the listening. Even the higher quality amateur recordings still seem a bit lacking from what I've heard. I'm not a fan of bootlegs though, so I'm probably a bit biased like that.

[King Postwhore]

If you don't know that, there is something wrong with you. If you think a YouTube video equates the quality of being there live then you are not thinking correctly and those who comment about a YouTube clip as gospel are looking for those things that do not matter being there live.

[Enigmachine]

If you don't know that, there is something wrong with you. If you think a YouTube video equates the quality of being there live then you are not thinking correctly and those who comment about a YouTube clip as gospel are looking for those things that do not matter being there live.

Of course I and many others know that. What I'm questioning is the motive behind watching an amateur live video (that isn't going to be enjoyable experience due to inevitable quality issues) then criticising it. Seems like nitpicking for nitpicking's sake.

[King Postwhore]

Bingo. You have your answer.

[rumborak]

At the same time, I hope you guys aren't suggesting that James is on-pitch live but the video of it would show him off-pitch, right?

[King Postwhore]

Not at all but like you said it's not noticeable live and I know about James all ready.  So I know what I'm getting into watching any YouTube clips. James has limitations but it doesn't ruin it for me when I'm there live.