Dream Theater Questions

[OnTheBacksofAngela]

So, I know you all are hardcore Dream Theater fans. I just was introduced to Dream Theater around an year ago, so I have some questions to ask if you guys don't mind answering.

Question 1) How is the process for making music for Dream Theater? We all know that Petrucci wrote In the Name of God so he is responsible for the lyrics. What about the instrumentals and such? I have thought of some scenario's, which one is the right one and if it's not right, can you tell me the correct answer?

Scenario 1:
JP: Hey guys! Here's the lyrics and I have thought of some riffs. Why don't you listen to it and feel free to add some parts of your own.

Rest: Sure.

Scenario 2:
JP: Alright guys, so here are my parts for In the Name of God. Jordan, can you add a mini piano solo here? Mike, I want this part and this part to be played softly. This song will start off with an acoustic and will explode. I will place a riff here and when James comes in, only the bass and drums will be present.....

Scenario 3:
JP: Alright, here are the lyrics. Any ideas on how we should progress with this song?

Question 2)
For Metropolis Part 2, I know Victoria and Julian were together, but Victoria broke up with Julian for Edward. Julian begged for forgiveness and they got back together and when Edward found out, he murdered Julian and Victoria. Using his position of power as a senator, he manipulated the newspaper.
That's nice and all, but where in the album does it say that Edward was a senator? Did I also get the point of the album correctly?

Question 3)
Is there any reason why Kevin Moore left the band and if Moore had stayed at Dream Theater, would he have been replaced by Rudess?

Question 4)
What is Metropolis Part 1 about? Is it about Julian/Victoria/Edward? People say it's about Romeo and Juliet, but I'm not too sure what it's about.

Question 5)
Why does Pull Me Under stop so suddenly?

Question 6)
So Octavarium's song plays on different notes each song (each a note higher) and in the end the track for the Root of All Evil plays again (the beginning). What exactly is the point of that? Also, I'm not quite sure what "Trapped inside this Octavarium" means. Can someone please explain this album for me a bit clearly?

Question 7)
Why didn't John Myung write any lyrics from Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence to Black Clouds? He is a pretty talented lyrics writer.

Sorry for all these questions and thank you for taking your time to answer them. I'm still a growing fan.

[Kotowboy]

5. Because they had a power cut at the studio whilst tracking and they liked how it sounded and left it in. Ironically the song is also about dying suddenly.

3. Kevin left the band because he found out James real name was Kevin and his ego couldn't handle it.

4. Nobody is sure what it's about.

6. Because JP bought a capo and placed it on a different fret for every song. He never used that capo again.

[pcs90]

https://www.gabbo.net/dt/faq/

[425]

1. The songwriting has usually been collaborative. Someone, especially JP or JR, would bring in a riff or a melody, but the songs would be put together in the studio. When he was in the band, MP played a central role in organizing/structuring the parts into songs. Lyrics are done last, after there's a complete composition. SFAM may have been an exception.

2. It doesn't say that Edward was a senator in the album. Not every part of the story is in the lyrics.

3. Kevin left the band because he was no longer interested in the type of music DT played. If KM hadn't left they probably wouldn't have added JR, but that's very speculative because KM did leave.

4. Metropolis' lyrics are vague. It's probably just a set of images/a loose storyline that JP liked, and then later developed some of the ideas into the Metropolis Pt. 2 story.

5. I don't know, they just wanted it to. Sometimes band members have said that it's to symbolize the sudden nature of death, but I don't know that that's actually the reason they decided to do it.

6. The point of moving up the keys is just to add to the coolness of the concept. MP loves that kind of things, I'll bet he's the one who came up with that idea. I don't think anyone knows precisely what "Trapped inside this Octavarium" means except MP.

7. John Myung stopped writing lyrics because the band (likely at the request of MP) instituted a rule that anyone who submits lyrics has to submit vocal melodies for those lyrics. John Myung never submitted vocal melodies for his lyrics, so he stopped submitting them. By 2010, he was ready to start writing lyrics again. JP probably helped with the vocal melodies and thus was co-credited as the lyricist on Breaking All Illusions.

[Vandalism]

1. I think the lyrics come after the composition is finalized mostly because of the variety of song structures they deal with. As far as composition itself goes, one of them usually comes up with a riff/idea/chord sequence whatever and then they would have long jams over it. Every note is recorded all the time so they revisit their jam and keep anything good that was played in there and repeat the process.

For example, in case of Illumination Theory JP had been humming the intro string chord sequence during the tour before as told by JR in the DTF band chat (one with JP cooking chicken outdoors).

Finally the lyrical duties are split between JP, JLB n JM too sometimes.

So among the scenarios you mentioned 1 is closest if you remove the lyrics.

[IDontNotDoThings]

1. I'm not sure, but most DT songs are credited to the entire band for the instrumentals, so my guess is that the lyrics are added later. For some songs, I could see Scenario 3 being taken in, especially with SFAM or 12SS.
2. I'd never heard Edward was a senator. According to BTS, he manipulated the story by pretending to be a witness, so he didn't need to be a senator.
3. Because his musical taste wasn't fitting with DT's music. I'm guessing he may have been replaced by Rudess though, since relations between KM & the rest of the band weren't that great.
4. The band has never confirmed it, but that is the speculation.
5. To signify to suddenness of death, I think it may have also been inspired by another song too.
6. To symbolise being stuck in one area of life & not being able to escape: being trapped inside an octave.
7. I don't know for certain, but I heard that in that era, there was a rule that whoever wrote lyrics had to write vocal melodies & JM didn't want to do that.

[chaossystem]

So, I know you all are hardcore Dream Theater fans. I just was introduced to Dream Theater around an year ago, so I have some questions to ask if you guys don't mind answering.

Question 1) How is the process for making music for Dream Theater? We all know that Petrucci wrote In the Name of God so he is responsible for the lyrics. What about the instrumentals and such? I have thought of some scenario's, which one is the right one and if it's not right, can you tell me the correct answer?

Scenario 1:
JP: Hey guys! Here's the lyrics and I have thought of some riffs. Why don't you listen to it and feel free to add some parts of your own.

Rest: Sure.

Scenario 2:
JP: Alright guys, so here are my parts for In the Name of God. Jordan, can you add a mini piano solo here? Mike, I want this part and this part to be played softly. This song will start off with an acoustic and will explode. I will place a riff here and when James comes in, only the bass and drums will be present.....

Scenario 3:
JP: Alright, here are the lyrics. Any ideas on how we should progress with this song?

Question 2)
For Metropolis Part 2, I know Victoria and Julian were together, but Victoria broke up with Julian for Edward. Julian begged for forgiveness and they got back together and when Edward found out, he murdered Julian and Victoria. Using his position of power as a senator, he manipulated the newspaper.
That's nice and all, but where in the album does it say that Edward was a senator? Did I also get the point of the album correctly?

Question 3)
Is there any reason why Kevin Moore left the band and if Moore had stayed at Dream Theater, would he have been replaced by Rudess?

Question 4)
What is Metropolis Part 1 about? Is it about Julian/Victoria/Edward? People say it's about Romeo and Juliet, but I'm not too sure what it's about.

Question 5)
Why does Pull Me Under stop so suddenly?

Question 6)
So Octavarium's song plays on different notes each song (each a note higher) and in the end the track for the Root of All Evil plays again (the beginning). What exactly is the point of that? Also, I'm not quite sure what "Trapped inside this Octavarium" means. Can someone please explain this album for me a bit clearly?

Question 7)
Why didn't John Myung write any lyrics from Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence to Black Clouds? He is a pretty talented lyrics writer.

Sorry for all these questions and thank you for taking your time to answer them. I'm still a growing fan.

1) There are documentaries available where they talk about the processes of writing and recording their albums. The bonus DVD that comes with Systematic Chaos has a LOT of detail. There's also some of that in the Live in Tokyo video, and they talk a little about how they work out the arrangements for their songs in the bonus DVD that comes wit the Budokan video. Most or all of these shows are also available on YouTube and other websites.

2) It's mentioned in the booklet that comes with the CD, but NOT in any of the songs/lyrics.

3) He wasn't comfortable with the success that the band was starting to have at the time. My guess would be that he is a very private, somewhat reclusive person, who just prefers to be left more or less alone, and isn't comfortable with being the center of a lot of attention. But he and John Petrucci were childhood friends who grew up in the same neighborhood, so I think he could have stayed in the band if he'd wanted to, for as LONG as he wanted to.

4) I've always had the theory that SFAM is more of a "fleshed out" version of Metropolis, not a sequel or follow-up. So I pretty much think of them as two versions of the same story.

5) I pretty much go along with everyone else's answer for this one.

6) The title track of this album was based on or inspired by the movie "Awakenings" which is about a doctor who was treating a group of encephalitis patients withy a drug called L-dopa, but it only works temporarily, so they fall back into their catatonic state. The song describes all of the things that Leonard (the Robert De Niro character) missed out on while he was "asleep," and how he ends up back in that condition, but is unfortunately aware of being trapped inside of his own mind and immobilized body.

7. I heard that his lyrics were supposedly too "poetic" and couldn't be structured as song lyrics. But I also think it's possible that he was bullied by Mike Portnoy into stopping what he was doing, because he has started writing more on the LAST couple of albums.

[Setlist Scotty]

Question 1) How is the process for making music for Dream Theater? We all know that Petrucci wrote In the Name of God so he is responsible for the lyrics. What about the instrumentals and such? I have thought of some scenario's, which one is the right one and if it's not right, can you tell me the correct answer?

In addition to what others have written, I'm not sure about now, but when MP was in the band, very little pre-written material was brought in to the studio - just about everything was developed as a band in the studio. But yes, the lyrics are written after the music is written. In the case of SFaM, I believe they had a basic outline of the story so that they knew what the lyrics of each song had to be about, but none of the lyrics were actually written before the music was done.

Question 5)
Why does Pull Me Under stop so suddenly?

Never heard the sudden nature of death idea that others are talking about. The idea actually came from The Beatles' "I Want You (She's So Heavy)" which cuts off abruptly in the same manner.

Question 6)
So Octavarium's song plays on different notes each song (each a note higher) and in the end the track for the Root of All Evil plays again (the beginning). What exactly is the point of that? Also, I'm not quite sure what "Trapped inside this Octavarium" means. Can someone please explain this album for me a bit clearly?

It was a thematic idea that MP came up with, based on an octave. The word octavarium is something that the band coined, but I would imagine means some sort of octave room, kinda like a planetarium, etc. I believe the meaning behind "trapped inside this octavarium" means that you are in endless cycle that continues to repeat without stopping, just like the album ("the story ends where it begins"), which ends in the same way as it begins.

Question 7)
Why didn't John Myung write any lyrics from Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence to Black Clouds? He is a pretty talented lyrics writer.

7. I heard that his lyrics were supposedly too "poetic" and couldn't be structured as song lyrics. But I also think it's possible that he was bullied by Mike Portnoy into stopping what he was doing, because he has started writing more on the LAST couple of albums.

Originally, JM would write the lyrics in poem form, never in lyric form, so someone else had to rewrite the words into lyric form. After this happened several times, the band stipulated that JM needed to submit them in lyric form (not in poem form). From that point onward, he wasn't motivated enough to write any lyrics, which is what he told me on at least one occasion. I don't believe that vocal melodies were something else that they required JM to do, altho I could be wrong.

Contrary to chaossystem's slanderous speculation, MP did NOT bully him into stopping of writing lyrics. Actually for at least the last couple albums, MP actively tried to encourage JM to write lyrics (since he knew how much the fans love JM's lyrics) but was unsuccessful. This idea that it's all MP's fault stems from the fact that MP was the one who explained to the public why JM had not written any lyrics for several albums. I'd wager that JP, being the other band leader was probably at least, if not more, responsible for the stipulation on JM's submissions - I say this since JP loves lyric writing the most and was probably the one most involved in helping rewrite JM's words into lyric form.

[pcs90]

This idea that it's all MP's fault stems from the fact that MP was the one who explained to the public why JM had not written any lyrics for several albums.

And the fact that after MP left, he started writing lyrics again.

[OnTheBacksofAngela]

Thanks guys, greatly appreciate your answers.

[hefdaddy42]

I've always had the theory that SFAM is more of a "fleshed out" version of Metropolis, not a sequel or follow-up.

Yeah, that's probably why they left "Pt. 2" off of the album cover.

Oh wait.

[Kotowboy]

Haha. I was about to go check then

[425]

This idea that it's all MP's fault stems from the fact that MP was the one who explained to the public why JM had not written any lyrics for several albums.

And the fact that after MP left, he started writing lyrics again.

Which JM says is a coincidence, that he was planning to write lyrics again anyway.

[chaossystem]

I've always had the theory that SFAM is more of a "fleshed out" version of Metropolis, not a sequel or follow-up.

Yeah, that's probably why they left "Pt. 2" off of the album cover.

Oh wait.

Why do you have to nit-pick over every little thing like this? I've never known anyone ELSE who is so OBSESSED with having to change other people's OPINIONS!! Can't you just LIVE and let LIVE??

[Train of Naught]

Whether SFAM is a sequel or not isn't an "OPINION"

[jakepriest]

inb4 this turns into the "ITPOE is one song and not two separate parts" mayhem that the Systematic Chaos thread turned into

[Kotowboy]

I've always had the theory that SFAM is more of a "fleshed out" version of Metropolis, not a sequel or follow-up.

Yeah, that's probably why they left "Pt. 2" off of the album cover.

Oh wait.

Why do you have to nit-pick over every little thing like this? I've never known anyone ELSE who is so OBSESSED with having to change other people's OPINIONS!! Can't you just LIVE and let LIVE??

inb4 "no"

[chaossystem]

Whether SFAM is a sequel or not isn't an "OPINION"

Okay, then...

can you explain HOW they are part one and part two of the same story, instead of being to different VERSIONS of the same story as they APPEAR to be?

[jammindude]

Whether SFAM is a sequel or not isn't an "OPINION"

[Train of Naught]

inb4 this turns into the "ITPOE is one song and not two separate parts" mayhem that the Systematic Chaos thread turned into

Oh my god I remember that, that's actually the first thread I ever created on this forum, "Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best" or something.

[Rodni Demental]

I'm sure there's a variety of answers to some of these questions, I'm just gonna answer a couple:

Question 1) Fairly sure they jam things out in a group most of the time then refine certain parts that could be usable. As people have mentioned there's a decent amount of behind the scenes footage out there for DT from various DVD live shows, bootlegs and a variety of youtube rarities that give a bunch of small glimpses (never quite enough) into this process across the years.

Question 6) The overall concept of Octavarium is about things moving in cycles. Patterns that constantly repeat themselves on different levels, on different scales. Cycles within cycles, and so they called it an Octavarium, which is a neat little way to musically represent this idea. And if you're wandering what the point to it is... Oh there's no point at all. Unless the point is that it ends where it begins or something. But that's music for you, completely pointless.

[ToT-147]

Question 6) The overall concept of Octavarium is about things moving in cycles. Patterns that constantly repeat themselves on different levels, on different scales. Cycles within cycles, and so they called it an Octavarium, which is a neat little way to musically represent this idea.

(Quoting only this, don't agree at all with the rest of that comment.. )

Besides the cycle stuff, I have to mention that I've always associated the phrase "Trapped inside this Octavarium" with that thing that MP said in some place on the Live at Budokan documentary, that the band have found their style and while it's as diverse as can be, and DT music is so varied, they had their limitations, their own sphere from where they cannot get out because otherwise, like most of bands, they would be losing their identity, what makes them Dream Theater.. So they're trapped inside his own music...

... as almost the rest of the bands in the world, and I'd say all of them..

[hefdaddy42]

Whether SFAM is a sequel or not isn't an "OPINION"

Okay, then...

can you explain HOW they are part one and part two of the same story, instead of being to different VERSIONS of the same story as they APPEAR to be?

Metropolis Part One: The Miracle and the Sleeper
Metropolis Part Two: Scenes From A Memory

I'm just saying.

I would imagine instead of having to explain THAT, you should probably explain your theory that it is not a sequel, as it has always been described and listed, but is rather a fleshed out version of the original.  Your idea is the one that is at odds with the status quo; explain yourself.  I'm looking forward to it.

BTW, SFAM is not titled "Metropolis Part One: The Expanded Edition."

[DragonAttack]

6)  As to the notes (pulling from a Portnoy response and a fair memory).  Van Halen would begin an album with the same note(s) that ended the previous LP.  With that in mind, starting with SFAM, 'Overture' goes back and starts similarly to 'Metropolis Pt1', the album ends with 'Home'.....it's ending starts off 'Glass Prison' on Six Degrees, ending with 'Losing Time'.....its ending starts off 'As I Am' on Train, ending with 'In The Name of God'.....its ending starts off 'Root of All Evil' on Octavarium....

at which point they come 'full circle' at the end of the title track, using the beginning of 'Root', and ended the continuation.

Appreciated the 'Awakenings' background.

[CDrice]

With that in mind, starting with SFAM, 'Overture' goes back and starts similarly to 'Metropolis Pt1', the album ends with 'Home'.....

I think your Scenes From A Memory album may suffer from the Pull Me Under syndrome. So you may want to keep an eye on that before it spreads and your album ends where it begins... Unless you meant Finally Free instead of Home, in which case feel free to ignore this post 

[Train of Naught]

I don't recall Overture 1928 starting off the album either, oh well, that's probably the amnesia kicking in.

[DragonAttack]

Ooooops, as to 'Finally Free'.  Sorry 'bout that.

I do know that 'Regression' starts SFOM.....but that is not where the 'story' begins. 

I'll try find MP's interview on these.

[chaossystem]

Whether SFAM is a sequel or not isn't an "OPINION"

Okay, then...

can you explain HOW they are part one and part two of the same story, instead of being to different VERSIONS of the same story as they APPEAR to be?

Metropolis Part One: The Miracle and the Sleeper
Metropolis Part Two: Scenes From A Memory

I'm just saying.

I would imagine instead of having to explain THAT, you should probably explain your theory that it is not a sequel, as it has always been described and listed, but is rather a fleshed out version of the original.  Your idea is the one that is at odds with the status quo; explain yourself.  I'm looking forward to it.

BTW, SFAM is not titled "Metropolis Part One: The Expanded Edition."

You couldn't just let this GO, could you?

When I said "can you explain" I meant from the lyrical and thematic content of the songs themselves, NOT what the title says. There is NOTHING in the lyrics of SFaM that indicates that it is a CONTINUATION of Metropolis. The original song doesn't really have much of a "theme" or "story" to it. It's more like a Yes/Jon Anderson-inspired hodge-podge of thrown-together lyrical ideas and themes without any real coherency. Or if you want, you could say that it's an OUTLINE for the REAL "story," or maybe a "blueprint."

But I suppose it's also possible that it was just meant to be an INTRODUCTION to the "real story" that they wanted to tell. But you also have to REMEMBER: they didn't actually start WRITING the version of "Metropolis Part Two" that MOST of us (or the casual fans anyway) are familiar with until at LEAST five years AFTER I&W came out, so at the time I think it's safe to say that they had LITTLE or NO IDEA what the final story was even going to BE. So...in spite of what the titles say, they would have to have been carrying ALL of the musical and lyrical ideas around in their heads the entire time before finally going into the studio and recording the album. And the main reason THAT couldn't have happened is because Jordan Rudess didn't join the band full-time 1998, and he was a VERY big part of the music-writing process for the album.

[Setlist Scotty]

You couldn't just let this GO, could you?

methinks the pot is calling the kettle black on this one...   

When I said "can you explain" I meant from the lyrical and thematic content of the songs themselves, NOT what the title says. There is NOTHING in the lyrics of SFaM that indicates that it is a CONTINUATION of Metropolis. The original song doesn't really have much of a "theme" or "story" to it. It's more like a Yes/Jon Anderson-inspired hodge-podge of thrown-together lyrical ideas and themes without any real coherency. Or if you want, you could say that it's an OUTLINE for the REAL "story," or maybe a "blueprint."

Maybe not a sequel in the traditional sense of the word, but going by how it's labeled, by definition I'd say it still is. Another situation that is similar is Rush's Cygnus X-1 and Hemispheres (fully titled "Cygnus X-1 Book II: Hemispheres"). The first one is about a space traveler going thru a black hole, whereas the second one is all about the clash of a couple of mythological gods. I don't think there's much continuation from the first part book to the second, altho the space traveler apparently makes an appearance in the second book. But the "story" in the second part doesn't really connect to the first part - it's more in terms of musical themes that are recalled and a brief lyrical mention of the space ship rocinante.

But I suppose it's also possible that it was just meant to be an INTRODUCTION to the "real story" that they wanted to tell. But you also have to REMEMBER: they didn't actually start WRITING the version of "Metropolis Part Two" that MOST of us (or the casual fans anyway) are familiar with until at LEAST five years AFTER I&W came out, so at the time I think it's safe to say that they had LITTLE or NO IDEA what the final story was even going to BE. So...in spite of what the titles say, they would have to have been carrying ALL of the musical and lyrical ideas around in their heads the entire time before finally going into the studio and recording the album. And the main reason THAT couldn't have happened is because Jordan Rudess didn't join the band full-time 1998, and he was a VERY big part of the music-writing process for the album.

There's no doubt that they had no idea what the story was going to be. When they first wrote Metropolis, they tacked on "Part 1" as a joke, which they kind of regretted afterward because then they kept on getting badgered about when they were gonna do part 2. But the point is, just because they didn't have anything specifically planned out in advance doesn't mean that it still couldn't be a sequel, which is how I understand your point above (correct me if I'm wrong). So many movies are done with no intentions of sequels, but after it becomes a hit at the box office, the film studios want a followup and so sequels are produced. I don't see this being any different.

[Stadler]

And to follow on Scotty's point, there is no law or rule that says a "SEQUEL" has to be a continuation of the EXACT same story-line.   It could be a theme.  It could be a singular event.  It could be another story in the general universe of the first.

Look, I'm all about splitting hairs where necessary (go to the P/R section for proof of that) but I have to say, this is like splitting a hair on Rob Halford's head at this point.

[hefdaddy42]

lol

[paulstfu]

1.- They do a collaborative work. Usually the idea is brought up by JR or JP and everyone buil up the melody. Also, there are some songs (The Silent Man, Beneath the surface, Space Dye Vest) written in its ntirety just by one of the members and then they add some other minor parts.

2.- He's listed as Senator on the booklet (I don't have pictures of it right now).

3.- He left because he didn't like Dream Theater that much but he had a pen and some paper so what the fuck (?).
Actually, he left because he lost interest on making music for DT.

4.- It's about Romulus (the miracle) and Remus (the sleeper) and how they funded Rome (metropolis). However, this "theory" has never been officialy confirmed by any of the band members.

5.- The ending was a kinda "tribute" to the Beatles (MP's heroes), because of the abrupt ending of "I Want you (She's so heavy)".

6.- Well, take a sit, get comfortable and prepare for a glorious trip: https://dt.spatang.com/octavarium.php

7.- I don't know where I read it, but MP wasn't so happy with JMX lyrics, because they were written in such a poetic way that the band had trouble fitting them into the music.

[Rodni Demental]

Question 6) The overall concept of Octavarium is about things moving in cycles. Patterns that constantly repeat themselves on different levels, on different scales. Cycles within cycles, and so they called it an Octavarium, which is a neat little way to musically represent this idea.

(Quoting only this, don't agree at all with the rest of that comment.. )

Besides the cycle stuff, I have to mention that I've always associated the phrase "Trapped inside this Octavarium" with that thing that MP said in some place on the Live at Budokan documentary, that the band have found their style and while it's as diverse as can be, and DT music is so varied, they had their limitations, their own sphere from where they cannot get out because otherwise, like most of bands, they would be losing their identity, what makes them Dream Theater.. So they're trapped inside his own music...

... as almost the rest of the bands in the world, and I'd say all of them..

Yeah I can relate to that, seems plausible. Btw, if the part of my comment you completely disagreed with was my inference that music patterns are pointless (like the scale that makes up the Ovtavarium) then I do stand by that, but let me clarify... I don't mean that to discredit or imply any negative connotations against music or invalidate any meaning people have gotten from their own experiences, not at all. I'm just saying, music generally has no built in practical point to it. It speaks for itself, any meaning is normally inferred or projected so the point of something like an endless cycle of notes that keep doubling/multiplying themselves and getting faster (pattern of octaves), sounds like a possible definition of meaningless or pointlessness if you ask me. At least, that's my take on it, I guess something doesn't need to have a 'point' to it to have value?. Also I'm not saying it doesn't mean anything to you or me (or even MP) just that these cycles of note cycles (and so eventually seemingly ending where you began) inherently doesn't have to have it's own built in meaning. Perhaps the closest thing to a meaning, would be to say that eventually everything comes full circle. But then, maybe it's more like a spiral...  Or maybe spirals can look like circles depending on your angle or point of view..?

I'm a music teacher and have been playing for most of my life, but I'm under no delusion that there's been any 'point' to what I've been doing with music over the last 20 years unless that is my delusion.  This doesn't mean I derive no personal meaning from music or I probably wouldn't still be doing it let alone go online to talk about this stuff. But then, does there even have to be a point to begin with? The reason I would say this is because the original poster asked, "what's the point?" (of the note cycle and the repeating "Octavarium"). So I say there is no point to it, it is what it is. But I have to ask, what do people think the point of the Octavarium is? I assume there'd be a bunch of varying yet valid interpretations.

[ToT-147]

I say there is no point to it, it is what it is. But I have to ask, what do people think the point of the Octavarium is? I assume there'd be a bunch of varying yet valid interpretations.

Yeah, of course.. And I'd say that even that "what it is" is purely subjective.. I mean that it depends on what each one thinks of the song's/album's meaning.. But I got you wrong.. Thanks for your explanation.. Nice point of view..

Anyway.. Whatever the meaning of Octavarium is, it's very inspiring.. And I love the concept even without having the need of understand it in its true nature (if there's such a thing.. I believe there is, but only they know it well.. Or maybe not )

[chaossystem]

You couldn't just let this GO, could you?

methinks the pot is calling the kettle black on this one...   

When I said "can you explain" I meant from the lyrical and thematic content of the songs themselves, NOT what the title says. There is NOTHING in the lyrics of SFaM that indicates that it is a CONTINUATION of Metropolis. The original song doesn't really have much of a "theme" or "story" to it. It's more like a Yes/Jon Anderson-inspired hodge-podge of thrown-together lyrical ideas and themes without any real coherency. Or if you want, you could say that it's an OUTLINE for the REAL "story," or maybe a "blueprint."

Maybe not a sequel in the traditional sense of the word, but going by how it's labeled, by definition I'd say it still is. Another situation that is similar is Rush's Cygnus X-1 and Hemispheres (fully titled "Cygnus X-1 Book II: Hemispheres"). The first one is about a space traveler going thru a black hole, whereas the second one is all about the clash of a couple of mythological gods. I don't think there's much continuation from the first part book to the second, altho the space traveler apparently makes an appearance in the second book. But the "story" in the second part doesn't really connect to the first part - it's more in terms of musical themes that are recalled and a brief lyrical mention of the space ship rocinante.

But I suppose it's also possible that it was just meant to be an INTRODUCTION to the "real story" that they wanted to tell. But you also have to REMEMBER: they didn't actually start WRITING the version of "Metropolis Part Two" that MOST of us (or the casual fans anyway) are familiar with until at LEAST five years AFTER I&W came out, so at the time I think it's safe to say that they had LITTLE or NO IDEA what the final story was even going to BE. So...in spite of what the titles say, they would have to have been carrying ALL of the musical and lyrical ideas around in their heads the entire time before finally going into the studio and recording the album. And the main reason THAT couldn't have happened is because Jordan Rudess didn't join the band full-time 1998, and he was a VERY big part of the music-writing process for the album.

There's no doubt that they had no idea what the story was going to be. When they first wrote Metropolis, they tacked on "Part 1" as a joke, which they kind of regretted afterward because then they kept on getting badgered about when they were gonna do part 2. But the point is, just because they didn't have anything specifically planned out in advance doesn't mean that it still couldn't be a sequel, which is how I understand your point above (correct me if I'm wrong). So many movies are done with no intentions of sequels, but after it becomes a hit at the box office, the film studios want a followup and so sequels are produced. I don't see this being any different.

Actually Hemispheres IS a direct sequel to Cygnus X-1: The astronaut character that gets sucked into the back hole in the first song is the one who becomes "Cygnus, the Bringer of Balance" that puts an end to the war between the "gods" in the second part.

As far as SFaM is concerned: Thank you for making my POINT! I was unaware that the  "Part One" in the title of Metropolis was meant as a joke. When I first saw and bought my copy of SFaM at the late lamented Tower Records store here in Mesa, az., I just assumed that they had planned a sequel, or "Part Two" all along. But as soon as I got it home and LISTENED to it, I started to realize that it WASN'T a continuation of the "story" in the original song, but rather an altered and expanded VERSION of it. Or to put it ANOTHER way: as much a REMAKE as a SEQUEL! Using your movie analogy, I think it's a little like how the second "300" movie is basically a story that takes place ALONG SIDE of the first one. Not a PERFECT comparison, but I think you get the idea...