I think DT12 is better than Images & Words

[ReaPsTA]

I can imagine a handful of other arguments (including the possibility that the album is totally awesome and I am wrong) for its success.

This seems the most likely answer.

I would like to note that almost everyone here has failed to give a real argument about I&W being better than DT12. While I made this thread to appeal personal opinions, you can absolutely write down WHY you think it's the best one out of the two, yet everyone says because it's... I&W, alright, why? James Voice? I agree, James's voice was awesome, yet I think it was better at SFAM and Awake (Not fond of high voices).

- Technically, James's voice is better.  He has that soaring majestic quality to his voice that a lot of people really enjoy and identify him with.

- Because it's their second album, it has a youth and vitality to it that most people generally enjoy in music.  A band's earlier albums are going to be generally more liked because they take more risks and haven't worn off their rough edges.  Especially in the case of I&W, DT was in the process of inventing a new genre of music and establishing its conventions.

- Pull Me Under is DT's one legitimate hit single.  This shouldn't matter, but it does.  It makes the song feel bigger and more exciting.

- MP's drumming is very unrestrained and intuitively musical.  MM's drumming on DT12 is very precise and mechanical.  Some people prefer the former, some people prefer the latter.  (For me, I think the drumming on I&W is better overall, but the drumming on IT is better than any song on I&W).

- I&W's mix isnt nearly as compressed, which is nicer on the ear.  While the bass mix on DT12 is very good, it's better on DT12.

- Myung's bass work on I&W overall is more inventive and unusual.  This matters to some people.

- Overall, the guitar solos on I&W are better.  They have the jazzy elements that eventually got pushed out of JP's soloing.  And while DT12 has some soaring melodies, they feel more casually effortless on I&W.

- KM's keyboards, depending on how you look at it, are more atmospheric than JR's on DT12.  And his keyboard solos tend to blend melody and the technical aspects more naturally.

- The biggest factor, I think, is that even though DT12 moves between many genres and styles, the whole album is very heavy and very dark music.  Even AFTR has a very slamming mix and the darker bridge section. I&W goes from heavy metal to ballad in its first two tracks.

You don't have to agree with these reasons, but I&W isn't so well liked purely for nostalgia reasons.  This isn't meant to diminish DT12 either.  IT is better than anything on I&W (IMO!!!!!!) and the album as a whole is in my top 5.

[Calvin6s]

I think that is (mostly) due to their release dates. If DT12 and I&W had their release dates swapped, who knows?

That could never happen.  If they released DT12 as their second album, it probably would have been their last album.

I&W is such a good album, they recorded and released it twice.  The first time it made their career.  The second time it saved it.

[emblempride]

Couldn't disagree more, but whatever floats your boat. However, the part that I am struggling to process and have difficulty making a concession with is the idea that TLG is more emotive than AD. No way, man. Even stripping away the fact that AD is a really personal song, does TLG really stir up anything emotionally? It has great lyrics for recent JP and is easy to relate to, and I don't know what kind of reaction you had to it, but "emotive" isn't really a word that comes to mind when listening to it.

[reneranucci]

The main reason is that the songwriting on I&W is just much better, far above whatever their new material has to offer. The heavy parts are better, the softer parts are better, the melodies are better, the song structures are better, the instruments sound better, the lyrics are better, the mood and emotions conveyed by the songs are much stronger.

I would even say that the members from DT wouldn't dare comparing both albums and saying that DT12 is even close to Images & Words 

[bosk1]

I would even say that the members from DT wouldn't dare comparing both albums and saying that DT12 is even close to Images & Words 

I suspect that you would be mistaken.

[erwinrafael]

- MP's drumming is very unrestrained and intuitively musical.  MM's drumming on DT12 is very precise and mechanical.  Some people prefer the former, some people prefer the latter.  (For me, I think the drumming on I&W is better overall, but the drumming on IT is better than any song on I&W).

Myung's bass work on I&W overall is more inventive and unusual.  This matters to some people.

I disagree with these two statements. MM had drumming masterpieces in The Enemy Inside, The Looking Glass. Behind the Veil, Surrender to Reason and Illumination Theory. The only songs with comparable drumming in Images and Words are Metropolis Pt. 1 and Under A Glass Moon.

For the bass work, Myung is  better in the Dream Theater album. Surrender to Reason, The Looking Glass and Illumination Theory are great. In Images and Words, Learning to Live is the highlight. Metropolis Part 1 has the good bass solo, but his work in the song outside the solo is not that great.

[Dr. DTVT]

I wonder if any of the people who like DT12 more than I&W's have been fans for more than a couple years.  I can't imagine any of the old guard thinking 12 is better.  My favorite song on 12 MIGHT be able to edge out my least favorite on I&W a couple of days a week.  That is more a testament to how well crafted I&W is than anything.

I don't dislike 12, but I can't honestly rate it in the top half of their discography.  I was pretty much done with it two weeks after it was released.

[erwinrafael]

I have been a fan since 1996 (or is it 1997?)  and I like DT the album more. Again, it's more for me growing with DT and appreciating how their music matured over the years. I loved I&W but it ia not on the top of my list anymore because my musical tastes have moved on from that sound, which I think is a bit dated already. Awake remains my favorite, the honesty and emotion just gets me all the time.

[FlyingBIZKIT]

Wish I could get into DT12. The Bigger Picture and Surrender to Reason are awesome though.

[BlobVanDam]

I&W is such a good album, they recorded and released it twice.  The first time it made their career.  The second time it saved it.

lol

[Cedar redaC]

I&W is such a good album, they recorded and released it twice.  The first time it made their career.  The second time it saved it.

Am I missing a subtle ADTOE joke? Or did the band actually re-record the album at some point and I totally missed it while I was gone?

[Scorpion]

I&W is such a good album, they recorded and released it twice.  The first time it made their career.  The second time it saved it.

Am I missing a subtle ADTOE joke? Or did the band actually re-record the album at some point and I totally missed it while I was gone?

I'll give you a hint: it's not the latter.

[hefdaddy42]

For the bass work, Myung is  better in the Dream Theater album.

I disagree.  It is certainly better on that album than on most of the previous albums, but it isn't better than I&W.

[bosk1]

I wonder if any of the people who like DT12 more than I&W's have been fans for more than a couple years.  I can't imagine any of the old guard thinking 12 is better. 

Imagine it.  I have been a fan since '92.

[Kotowboy]

I&W is such a good album, they recorded and released it twice.  The first time it made their career.  The second time it saved it.

Am I missing a subtle ADTOE joke? Or did the band actually re-record the album at some point and I totally missed it while I was gone?

it's that old " A Dramatic Turn of Events is just Images & Words all over again " chestnut.

[zecawolf]

i don't know. I totally fail to see the resemblance.

[Kotowboy]

Nor do I but i think someone on here mentioned it and Portnoy saw it * and commented on it like he noticed it all on his own and that gave is some traction.













* not fact but I think it was a good explanation as Portnoy didn't "notice" it until after the post was made...

[erwinrafael]

For the bass work, Myung is  better in the Dream Theater album.

I disagree.  It is certainly better on that album than on most of the previous albums, but it isn't better than I&W.

In I&W, I feel   that Myung was still in the speed and fill-up-many-notes per line mode. In Dream Theater, he sounds really confident in letting the bass breathe and really give the songs the rhythmic foundation. His bass playing carried the rhythm in TLG, Enigma Machine, BTV, STR, AFTR and IT. He also played a lot of nice counterpoints to what the other instruments are doing. I love his "duet" with JR in the AFTR solo, and with JP in the solo in Live.Die.Kill in IT and of course in TLG. The bass work in STR is the monster in the album.

In I&W, the standout track for Myung is LtL, which is a real masterpiece. Some good rhythm work in PMU, TTT and good soloing in Metropolis. But none in the level of the songs in the DT album where you can hear him really carrying the songs along with MM. Not much counterpointing also.

[zecawolf]

Man, I really like Portnoy. But honestly, I will never accept any opinion of his about DT without being a little suspicious....I think that he never imagined the band making great albums without him, and in my OPINION, they totally proved him wrong. But that's another thread.

By the way, and yet ANOTHER thread, to me DT is John Petrucci.

[hefdaddy42]

Some good rhythm work in PMU, TTT and good soloing in Metropolis. But none in the level of the songs in the DT album where you can hear him really carrying the songs along with MM. Not much counterpointing also.

That has more to do with the songwriting and arrangement than what he is actually playing.

He is great on DT12, no doubt.  But it doesn't touch I&W.

[erwinrafael]

Some good rhythm work in PMU, TTT and good soloing in Metropolis. But none in the level of the songs in the DT album where you can hear him really carrying the songs along with MM. Not much counterpointing also.

That has more to do with the songwriting and arrangement than what he is actually playing.

He is great on DT12, no doubt.  But it doesn't touch I&W.

But composing and arranging your parts so that it will perform the function it needs to in a song is, for me, the real sign of playing skills and intelligence than mere chops. He definitely showed a lot of chops in I&W, but in terms of playing the bass in terms of its function in a song, he really did better in Dream Theater.

If we're just talking mere chops, it would be like saying that 6:00 is the masterpiece song of Myung.

[zecawolf]

Some good rhythm work in PMU, TTT and good soloing in Metropolis. But none in the level of the songs in the DT album where you can hear him really carrying the songs along with MM. Not much counterpointing also.

That has more to do with the songwriting and arrangement than what he is actually playing.

He is great on DT12, no doubt.  But it doesn't touch I&W.

But composing and arranging your parts so that it will perform the function it needs to in a song is, for me, the real sign of playing skills and intelligence than mere chops. He definitely showed a lot of chops in I&W, but in terms of playing the bass in terms of its function in a song, he really did better in Dream Theater.

If we're just talking mere chops, it would be like saying that 6:00 is the masterpiece song of Myung.

hit the nail on the head

[BlobVanDam]

Some good rhythm work in PMU, TTT and good soloing in Metropolis. But none in the level of the songs in the DT album where you can hear him really carrying the songs along with MM. Not much counterpointing also.

That has more to do with the songwriting and arrangement than what he is actually playing.

He is great on DT12, no doubt.  But it doesn't touch I&W.

But composing and arranging your parts so that it will perform the function it needs to in a song is, for me, the real sign of playing skills and intelligence than mere chops. He definitely showed a lot of chops in I&W, but in terms of playing the bass in terms of its function in a song, he really did better in Dream Theater.

If we're just talking mere chops, it would be like saying that 6:00 is the masterpiece song of Myung.

On WDADU I definitely think he hadn't found his role, and was playing for technicality rather than musicality (which I'd say about every member on WDADU), but on IaW he really nailed that balance (which I'd say about every member on IaW). Even when he's playing fast and higher up on the neck, it's always adding to the song and complementing the rest of the band.

And there's nothing on DT12 even half as awesome as the bassline to TtT. Case closed.

[hefdaddy42]

But composing and arranging your parts so that it will perform the function it needs to in a song is, for me, the real sign of playing skills and intelligence than mere chops. He definitely showed a lot of chops in I&W, but in terms of playing the bass in terms of its function in a song, he really did better in Dream Theater.

On the face of it, this seems incredibly pretentious.  You seem to be saying that you know what the function of the bass in the songs on I&W is better than Myung does.

In fact, the bass playing on I&W is perfect for the style of songwriting that is on that album.  DT12, although still within the same genre, displays a somewhat different quintet of musicians writing different songs at a different time in their lives.  It is different.  Some of the approaches that Myung chose on DT12 wouldn't have fit in with the compositions on I&W, which makes perfect sense.

[zecawolf]

But composing and arranging your parts so that it will perform the function it needs to in a song is, for me, the real sign of playing skills and intelligence than mere chops. He definitely showed a lot of chops in I&W, but in terms of playing the bass in terms of its function in a song, he really did better in Dream Theater.

On the face of it, this seems incredibly pretentious.  You seem to be saying that you know what the function of the bass in the songs on I&W is better than Myung does.

In fact, the bass playing on I&W is perfect for the style of songwriting that is on that album.  DT12, although still within the same genre, displays a somewhat different quintet of musicians writing different songs at a different time in their lives.  It is different.  Some of the approaches that Myung chose on DT12 wouldn't have fit in with the compositions on I&W, which makes perfect sense.

But if you think that the playing on one album wouldn't fit on the other, and that he did exactly what was required for each one, it becomes a matter of taste and the comparison about "which is better" totally becomes senseless.

[erwinrafael]

But composing and arranging your parts so that it will perform the function it needs to in a song is, for me, the real sign of playing skills and intelligence than mere chops. He definitely showed a lot of chops in I&W, but in terms of playing the bass in terms of its function in a song, he really did better in Dream Theater.

On the face of it, this seems incredibly pretentious.  You seem to be saying that you know what the function of the bass in the songs on I&W is better than Myung does.

In fact, the bass playing on I&W is perfect for the style of songwriting that is on that album.  DT12, although still within the same genre, displays a somewhat different quintet of musicians writing different songs at a different time in their lives.  It is different.  Some of the approaches that Myung chose on DT12 wouldn't have fit in with the compositions on I&W, which makes perfect sense.

Not being pretentious at all. I'm going by how I hear Myung's approach evolved over the course of the different albums, and his approach in the Dream Theater album is in line with how his approach started to evolve starting with Falling Into Infinity. More counterpoints, more carrying the rhythms, less of the fast finger-breaking stuff he did in the earlier albums. For me, it is still a toss-up between FII and SFAM for best Myung bass work. His work in Octavarium (the song, not the album) is also up there. His work in the Dream Theater album is also near that level.

If we are just going to assume that Myung did what fits for every album, then we'll end up just basing our evaluations on how well we regard the songs themselves, not on how Myung played them.

[hefdaddy42]

Not necessarily.

But there is certainly an element of that.

I think it is fair to say that on I&W, he was playing a lot of "lead bass", so to speak, and not playing with MP in a traditional rock "rhythm section" role.  But that's OK, because they weren't a traditional rock band.  Musicianship was an important part of their formula.

However, with the songs on DT12, he (for the most part) is playing more WITH MM than he ever did with MP.  They are a lot closer to a rhythm section than on any other DT album I can remember.  And that's fine; the songwriting style on that album is more concise and less flamboyant overall, with all of the musicians.

[Setlist Scotty]

Nor do I but i think someone on here mentioned it and Portnoy saw it * and commented on it like he noticed it all on his own and that gave is some traction.



* not fact but I think it was a good explanation as Portnoy didn't "notice" it until after the post was made...

For the record, MP did see the connections way before that post was made. I saw the AMob show on Sept 2, 2011 and spoke with him both before and after the show. One of the topics that came up with was ADToE. He had already heard a leaked copy of it (BobS, who was with me, and I, had not heard the album yet aside from OtBoA) and he was telling us how all the parts of several songs matched up with songs on IaW. He didn't comment on the connection between AD and TitL, but he did with the PMU/OtBoA, LNF/UaGM, Outcry/Metropolis and FFH-BAI/WFS-LtL. The ONLY reason why he didn't say something before Thiago did was because of the backlash he expected to face online by commenting on these "coincidences". So no, he "didn't "notice" it until after the post was made..." - he was well aware of them before.

[hefdaddy42]

Also, if I'm not mistaken, he said that same thing when he finally did say something about it.

[Setlist Scotty]

Also, if I'm not mistaken, he said that same thing when he finally did say something about it.

Yeah, but unfortunately, many people are gonna assume that he was lying until he or someone else can prove what he said, despite the fact that he's always been truthful (perhaps too truthful in some cases, and maybe a bit biased in others) in what he's said.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Also, if I'm not mistaken, he said that same thing when he finally did say something about it.

Yeah, but unfortunately, many people are gonna assume that he was lying until he or someone else can prove what he said, despite the fact that he's always been truthful (perhaps too truthful in some cases, and maybe a bit biased in others) in what he's said.

Scotty, have you talked to him at all about what he feels about where the band is right now? I feel like I read something recently where a reporter asked him for his opinion on current DT and he said "You don't want to know" or something. I could be remembering wrong.

[ReaPsTA]

Is it okay to talk about this yet?  The structures on PMU/OTBOA, UAGM/LNF, and AD/TITL are almost exactly the same.  And the WFS/LTL connection is used again for FFH/BAI.

This comment is not meant to be a disparagement of Dream Theater or their songwriting.  On the most basic, perhaps cynical level, they did the smart thing.  I like listening to Dream Theater albums so I prefer that they keep their career going.  In terms of subjective opinion, it's not like any of the songs actually feel like ripoffs.  I actually like TITL better than AD.  OTBOA and LNF are excellent songs.

I think the problem was that all the Thiago posts were insinuating that DT were a bunch of hacks, and then MP got on that train, and the fans who agreed with it got on that train, and so rather than a discussion of the song structures it became a dividing line between whether or not you respect the band on even a basic level.

But it's like almost five years later.  Is it finally cool?

[Calvin6s]

Is it okay to talk about this yet?  The structures on PMU/OTBOA, UAGM/LNF, and AD/TITL are almost exactly the same.  And the WFS/LTL connection is used again for FFH/BAI.

...

and so rather than a discussion of the song structures it became a dividing line between whether or not you respect the band on even a basic level.

I gave a measure by measure breakdown of a few songs on the John Petrucci forum.  I can understand that some may never get it.  Especially if they've never made a serious attempt to write some songs.  This was about reusing song forms, not copying riffs note for note.  A few joined the discussion, but it was mainly treated as blasphemy.  And yet Muse comparisons are just dandy.

[bosk1]

Is it okay to talk about this yet?  The structures on PMU/OTBOA, UAGM/LNF, and AD/TITL are almost exactly the same.  And the WFS/LTL connection is used again for FFH/BAI.

This comment is not meant to be a disparagement of Dream Theater or their songwriting.  On the most basic, perhaps cynical level, they did the smart thing.  I like listening to Dream Theater albums so I prefer that they keep their career going.  In terms of subjective opinion, it's not like any of the songs actually feel like ripoffs.  I actually like TITL better than AD.  OTBOA and LNF are excellent songs.

I think the problem was that all the Thiago posts were insinuating that DT were a bunch of hacks, and then MP got on that train, and the fans who agreed with it got on that train, and so rather than a discussion of the song structures it became a dividing line between whether or not you respect the band on even a basic level.

But it's like almost five years later.  Is it finally cool?

The two problems with Thiago's posts were (1) what you mentioned above, and (2) he posted it before the album was officially released.  Other than the specific timing of his posts, there has never been a problem with discussing it.  In fact, it has been discussed pretty in depth.  Again, it was just the tone and the timing of his posts that got him in trouble.

[KevShmev]

Also, if I'm not mistaken, he said that same thing when he finally did say something about it.

Yeah, but unfortunately, many people are gonna assume that he was lying until he or someone else can prove what he said, despite the fact that he's always been truthful (perhaps too truthful in some cases, and maybe a bit biased in others) in what he's said.

With all due respect, someone's version of the truth is not always the truth.  I know he is your friend, and you feel like you have to defend him at every turn (and I do the same with friends, so I get it), but he has definitely said things over the years that have turned out to be, well, not so truthful, so this "he always tells the truth" mantra is just not believable.