Score Orchestra vs BTFW Orchestra

[Darkstarshades]

So this may be a weird thread... Or strange, and may spark some hatred on me or on whoever agrees with me or otherwise.

But this is strictly about personal opinion. (Which we can share without being hostile against each other)
Yet, there are some facts, which is different.

I absolutely love Score, which I rank as the single best live DVD ever done by a band ever in the everness of eternity.
I was blown away completely by the orchestra during the second act of the show. COMPLETELY. It was so awesome because... Even though the Octavarium songs had already been recorded with that same orchestra, it sounded very different.
Which made me effectively refuse to go back and hear the studio versions, why doing that when I can hear some awesome Six Degrees/Sacrificed Sons/Octavarium with a simply badass orchestra?

Now, when Dream Theater (the album) came out, I thought Dream Theater would orchestrate some f these pieces, and make them sound even cooler than what they already did (because I actually like the album a lot). I was waiting for Illumination Theory. Man, the song just had so much potential, because it's an EPIC.... However... Even though I believe they (and Eren) did their best to make it cool live, and I in no way could have done it better... I just can't like it.
The same goes for the encore SFAM section, I only find the orchestra really relevant at the Finally Free intro... I even thought the orchestra wasn't playing at all during TDOE, and... It was.

I just find the Orchestra at BTFW so irrelevant, so "just there"... The choruses were alright, pretty awesome and helped give a lot of atmosphere... But the orchestra only really shines during the middle part of IT, which was made for that sole purpose.
Eren and the orchestra, as far as I know, recorded their parts in DT12, just as Jamshied and the other orchestra recorded for Octavarium. Yet at the score, the other orchestra feels really "there", and Jordan even changes his keyboard parts to adapt to the orchestra... But throughout the final BTFW part they just play pretty much the same, as if the orchestra was simply placed above the group playing (SFAM songs were recorded WITHOUT an orchestra... But SDOIT was ALSO RECORDED WITHOUT AN ORCHESTRA).
Idk... All of this makes me feel the BTFW performance is souless and rather unnecessary, as if the orchestra did nothing Jordan could not do as well, while the Score arrangements added so much on their on and Jordan really got along with them.

So my final questions for you are... What do you think?
Was this actual poor arrangement for the BTFW presentation? (Because none can deny Eren's directing skills, neither Jamshied's, and both orchestras are pretty good)
Poor song choices?
Or the Octavarium Orchestra did an overall greater effort than the new one?

Edit: So, I completely forgot to add the last one, jeeez, thanks to Raistetheknife for reminding me, I'm sleepy lol.
Mixing: Yeah, the big enemy of live recordings, Can we safely say it was all mixing fault?

[RaiseTheKnife]

Calling BTFW orchestra soulless and unnecessary is pretty darn harsh.  There were major failings in recording the orchestra that night, thus it doesn't punch through the mix.  The Berklee ensemble performed an amazing arrangement (as can be heard in their practice session videos), and if we could only have heard them better that night, it might change the negative opinions.

By the way, if DT has a recording of the House of Blues preparation session, that should be a forthcoming Ytse Jam release.

[Darkstarshades]

Calling BTFW orchestra soulless and unnecessary is pretty darn harsh.  There were major failings in recording the orchestra that night, thus it doesn't punch through the mix.  The Berklee ensemble performed an amazing arrangement (as can be heard in their practice session videos), and if we could only have heard them better that night, it might change the negative opinions.

By the way, if DT has a recording of the House of Blues preparation session, that should be a forthcoming Ytse Jam release.

Alright, I agree I was pretty much a jerk by calling them soulless and unnecesary.
Certainly the mix plays a lot in here, and it was not done appropiately that night. However, I cannot imagine how The Dance of Eternity would sound any different had the "mixing" been done properly. I just don't, not at all.

[BlobVanDam]

I don't think either orchestra turned out as well as they could unfortunately.

Score had amazing arrangements, and a killer performance, and the orchestra did a great job considering how little time they had together to prepare, but there were tuning and timing issues that stop it from being definitive imo. I can't really listen to it often. I don't blame anyone for that, it's just a case of time and money to put such an ambitious show together.

And I think there were serious recording issues on BTFW. I'm not convinced there's much real orchestra in there at all. The orchestral break in Illlumination Theory is predominantly the studio recording (which Eren did an incredible job on btw), with a couple of very subtle deviations that I believe are the live recording, but it's barely there. In all other cases, the orchestra and choir sound almost 100% synth.
I have a feeling there were problems with recording the orchestra, and they had to do the best they could with what they had. Maybe the mics didn't pick up the full orchestra, or maybe the recording had other problems, I don't know, but I think there was definitely an issue.
While the end result is one of their best live DVDs, I don't think the orchestra got to shine as much as they could have. Regardless, the visual of the orchestra in the pit was cool, and the whole package still looks and sounds top notch.

[bosk1]

I pretty much agree with Blob.  I get the point in the original post.  And I think the BTFW orchestra really was not necessary for most of the SFAM set.  But they were tighter than the Octavarium Orchestra and did not have tuning issues.  As awesome as the Octavarium Orchestra concept was, the execution flaws become more glaring once the newness wears off. 

[rumborak]

I think the BTFW orchestra worked better than the Score one, yeah. Sure, they were barely audible fluff during the SFAM set, but in the sections where they were salient, they worked well. The Score orchestra has sections that are really tough to get through. Specifically the flutes, IIRC.

[cramx3]

Metropolis from Score is really awesome with the added orchestra, but I agree that the orchestra doesn't add much to the SFAM songs from BTFW.

However, I enjoy BTFW more than Score when all things are considered.

[bosk1]

Metropolis from Score is really awesome with the added orchestra, but I agree that the orchestra doesn't add much to the SFAM songs from BTFW.

I think they actually sound great on Octavarium and Sacrificed Sons as well.  Six Degrees is where the tuning and timing issues are the most glaring, and since it is such a long piece, those issues are magnified.

[cramx3]

Metropolis from Score is really awesome with the added orchestra, but I agree that the orchestra doesn't add much to the SFAM songs from BTFW.

I think they actually sound great on Octavarium and Sacrificed Sons as well.  Six Degrees is where the tuning and timing issues are the most glaring, and since it is such a long piece, those issues are magnified.

My point was more for the added orchestration for songs that didn't have it on the album, I agree SS and 8VM sound really good too.

[Madman Shepherd]

I don't think either orchestra turned out as well as they could unfortunately.

Score had amazing arrangements, and a killer performance, and the orchestra did a great job considering how little time they had together to prepare, but there were tuning and timing issues that stop it from being definitive imo. I can't really listen to it often. I don't blame anyone for that, it's just a case of time and money to put such an ambitious show together.

And I think there were serious recording issues on BTFW. I'm not convinced there's much real orchestra in there at all. The orchestral break in Illlumination Theory is predominantly the studio recording (which Eren did an incredible job on btw), with a couple of very subtle deviations that I believe are the live recording, but it's barely there. In all other cases, the orchestra and choir sound almost 100% synth.
I have a feeling there were problems with recording the orchestra, and they had to do the best they could with what they had. Maybe the mics didn't pick up the full orchestra, or maybe the recording had other problems, I don't know, but I think there was definitely an issue.
While the end result is one of their best live DVDs, I don't think the orchestra got to shine as much as they could have. Regardless, the visual of the orchestra in the pit was cool, and the whole package still looks and sounds top notch.

You summed up my thoughts perfectly. 

I will add for me, I would much rather listen to BTFW because I find the sound excellent even if you can't really hear the orchestra.  Like you said, Score had tuning and timing issues.  That is more of a deal breaker even though I think they literally did the best they could with the time restraints and union issues. 

[Nick]

Having been at both shows, I would say live, the Score orchestra was better by about 2454436246 million miles. Don't get me wrong, BtFW is fine on the DVD, but frankly they added pretty much nothing at the show, aside from the middle of IT. The Score ensemble literally took great songs to an entirely new level. Did not feel that way at all about the BtFW stuff.

[paulstfu]

so "just there"...

Yes. I feel the same way, but because of the mix. Today I was listening to the SFAM encore and I didn't realize the orchestra was playing until the final part of TDOE.

[Zyzzyva17]

Fun fact: my elementary school orchestra conductor played viola in the Scorchestra.

[erwinrafael]

You can not hear the orchestra in BtFW?

[JLa]

Surprised to see so many positive remarks about the orchestra on Score. I think they really messed up a lot. Like, listen to the intro of Vacant, it's horrible. I was so disappointed with that release - when they finally went all the way and got an orchestra, why couldn't they give the musicians time to practice and learn the songs?! Or hire a better orchestra... And I was hoping for something like Metallica's S&M..oh well. At least they did Metropolis OK.

Haven't really seen that much of BTFW except a few clips on YouTube, so I really can't judge that one. The bits and pieces I've heard sounded alright, although the orchestra wasn't that loud/audible.

[Ben_Jamin]

That's one song that I don't enjoy live, because of the orchestra. That couldve been excellent if practiced more.

[SystematicThought]

The french horns are amazing in that intro though. That's my biggest highlight of the disc--that and I think War Inside My Head with the orchestra is cool too