DT12 CD vs HDTracks - A visual representation

[jamesfernando]

I'll let the picture speak for itself. Both versions have been converted to 320 kbps mp3, yet the difference is still night and day.

[fischermasamune]

What is the graph measuring exactly?

[nikatapi]

The difference is heard, especially on the drums, even though the individual tracks still sound very compressed.
I can't see the reason why the CD doesn't have that master, but i can see the trend continuing on the next album.

[ytserush]

I think the CD should have that mix too.

[The Letter M]

This is why I only ever keep MP3s of the HDTracks versions (of the last four albums) on my iPod, Phone, work computer, laptop...anywhere, really. They sound SO much better and aren't brickwalled to hell and back.

I really wish they'd get the pre-RR albums, but I won't hold my breath for it.

-Marc.

[Zydar]

Yeah, HDtracks is the best. I have several albums (by other artists than DT) in HDtracks format and they really sound better than the CD master.

[rumborak]

As a general comment though, I think people assign too much deductive power to simple visual inspection of the waveform. You can have a completely rectangular waveform, and it can still be fine. The loudness war happens mostly in the frequency space, where specific subbands are compressed. That you can't infer from those waveforms. Or rather, it only lets you spot the worst offenders.

[seasonsinthesky]

What is the graph measuring exactly?

volume over time (left and right channels ordered vertically).

it's crazy how much more powerful and clear the band sound in the HDTracks version. although it brings out the super fake-sounding snare sample even more.

[Skeever]

That was my experience with HDTracks. Everything sounds better, but the snare sounds even worse and more out of place. Just a completely botched job, DT12 was. Not like chocolate cake at all

[BlobVanDam]

As a general comment though, I think people assign too much deductive power to simple visual inspection of the waveform. You can have a completely rectangular waveform, and it can still be fine. The loudness war happens mostly in the frequency space, where specific subbands are compressed. That you can't infer from those waveforms. Or rather, it only lets you spot the worst offenders.

You can definitely tell how compressed music is from the waveform. It doesn't tell you which band is compressed, but it will still show up regardless of frequency. All music looks like a block if you zoom out far enough, but the difference if you zoom in is obvious. If something looks like a solid rectangle of noise zoomed in, it will not sound dynamic.

But I agree that inspecting the waveform isn't the be-all of judging how it will sound, nor is the DR number, because that doesn't take into account the factor of which band the compression is occurring.

[Bolsters]

Most of FII looks like a rectangle too, but it still sounds pretty good. You have to use your ears aswell as your eyes.

[BlobVanDam]

Most of FII looks like a rectangle too, but it still sounds pretty good. You have to use your ears aswell as your eyes.

If you're viewing the whole song at once yes, but zoomed in it looks better. That album doesn't have a major compression issue, but does have a bit of a clipping issue, that is visible when zoomed in. The bass drum clips off, which creates some flat peaks.
The waveform is only useful as supporting evidence in conjunction with using your ear and knowing what you're hearing.

[PetFish]

I've never tried HD tracks but I'm thinking of getting DT12.  I've seen some great visual comparisons and testimonials but the small audio samples on the website don't give me much to go on.

But first, can someone tell me if the guitar riff in the beginning of Illumination Theory is clear?  It starts at about 1:20.  The first time it's played only in the left channel and it's extremely difficult to hear the notes and it's only when the right channel comes in at about 1:28 that I can hear clearly.  It's not so noticable in my car but through headphones it's barf.

This info will determine for me if I should spend the $20 or not cuz if it's still barf in the left channel like the CD then I can't justify the purchase.

[BlobVanDam]

That riff in the left speaker isn't super clear regardless because it's during the fadeout of the previous section and it has a muffled tone, but it doesn't have any of the clipping crackle that the CD version has. Not sure if that's at all helpful.

[me7]

The waveform is only useful as supporting evidence in conjunction with using your ear and knowing what you're hearing.

Well said.

[ariich]

Or rather, it only lets you spot the worst offenders.

Pretty much, yep. I mean, it is a useful indicator, but as Blob says it should only be used in conjunction with your ears.

Yeah, HDtracks is the best. I have several albums (by other artists than DT) in HDtracks format and they really sound better than the CD master.

Ooh what other ones? I've heard comments that a lot of what is on there is the same master and therefore pointless because our ears can't actually make out the additional definition. But if there are others that are better masters then I could be interested.

[Zydar]

Yeah, HDtracks is the best. I have several albums (by other artists than DT) in HDtracks format and they really sound better than the CD master.

Ooh what other ones? I've heard comments that a lot of what is on there is the same master and therefore pointless because our ears can't actually make out the additional definition. But if there are others that are better masters then I could be interested.

The one that pops to mind first is Metallica's black album. I can hear stuff on there that I didn't realise was in there (buried in the mix?), the overall sound is clearer and the bass has more punch.

Some Rush albums sound a little better too (like A Farewell To Kings, 2112, and Power Windows).

I don't know if it's the same masters or not, they sound better to my ears any way

[Bolsters]

You really need to research a bit before you buy stuff from HDTracks. Sometimes what they have is more dynamic than the CD and sounds great (like the DT albums), sometimes it's an identical master to the CD (and therefore a mostly worthless purchase), and unfortunately sometimes their downloads are actually a new master that is compressed more than the original CD.

[nikatapi]

I have to say that besides DT12, BC&SL and SC sound much better on the HDTracks versions, there is much more breathing room, and the drums seem to have more natural punch and less clipping.

[Skeever]

Or rather, it only lets you spot the worst offenders.

Pretty much, yep. I mean, it is a useful indicator, but as Blob says it should only be used in conjunction with your ears.

Yeah, HDtracks is the best. I have several albums (by other artists than DT) in HDtracks format and they really sound better than the CD master.

Ooh what other ones? I've heard comments that a lot of what is on there is the same master and therefore pointless because our ears can't actually make out the additional definition. But if there are others that are better masters then I could be interested.

I'm not sure about all bands, but for DT's case, you're not getting albums that merely have additional definition. You're actually getting albums that seem mastered differently. You can very easily hear the difference.

[BlobVanDam]

Yeah, HDtracks is the best. I have several albums (by other artists than DT) in HDtracks format and they really sound better than the CD master.

Ooh what other ones? I've heard comments that a lot of what is on there is the same master and therefore pointless because our ears can't actually make out the additional definition. But if there are others that are better masters then I could be interested.

The one that pops to mind first is Metallica's black album. I can hear stuff on there that I didn't realise was in there (buried in the mix?), the overall sound is clearer and the bass has more punch.

Some Rush albums sound a little better too (like A Farewell To Kings, 2112, and Power Windows).

I don't know if it's the same masters or not, they sound better to my ears any way

The Black Album is very dynamic to begin with. I've actually heard some complaints about the HDTracks version using a different mix with some additional effects on solos or something like that.
There are plenty of albums I'd buy in an instant if I knew they were better masters, but they'd all be more recent albums, from the 21st century.

[Zydar]

I've actually heard some complaints about the HDTracks version using a different mix with some additional effects on solos or something like that.

That could very well be the case.

[ariich]

Or rather, it only lets you spot the worst offenders.

Pretty much, yep. I mean, it is a useful indicator, but as Blob says it should only be used in conjunction with your ears.

Yeah, HDtracks is the best. I have several albums (by other artists than DT) in HDtracks format and they really sound better than the CD master.

Ooh what other ones? I've heard comments that a lot of what is on there is the same master and therefore pointless because our ears can't actually make out the additional definition. But if there are others that are better masters then I could be interested.

I'm not sure about all bands, but for DT's case, you're not getting albums that merely have additional definition. You're actually getting albums that seem mastered differently. You can very easily hear the difference.

Yeah I have all the DT ones, because I knew about the mastering difference. I was just interested in whether there were other ones out there with a vastly superior master.

As I said in another thread recently, I definitely won't be getting the new DT album until I know what's going on sound-wise across the various sources.

[PetFish]

That riff in the left speaker isn't super clear regardless because it's during the fadeout of the previous section and it has a muffled tone, but it doesn't have any of the clipping crackle that the CD version has. Not sure if that's at all helpful.

Yep, it is, thanks.

So what's the general consensus about DT12HD?  Yay or nay?  If I'm going to start somewhere this would be the one.

[erwinrafael]

Yay. Especially if you want to hear the cymbals.

[Bolsters]

So what's the general consensus about DT12HD?  Yay or nay?  If I'm going to start somewhere this would be the one.

I don't think anyone has ever posted saying that they prefer the CD over HDTracks.

[PetFish]

Nobody has said that, of course, but nobody has said "dayuuuuuum DT12HD is da shiz, yo" either.

Screw, I'm gonna get DT12HD tonight and check it out.  Worst case I'm out $20.  I'll let you guys know what I think in a few days.

[Zydar]

So what's the general consensus about DT12HD?  Yay or nay?  If I'm going to start somewhere this would be the one.

I don't think anyone has ever posted saying that they prefer the CD over HDTracks.

I haven't come across one example where the HDTracks version is not better than the CD.

[PetFish]

What the hell, man, I bought it but their download manager isn't working for me and I've re-installed Java and even Quicktime and the 'download manager' still won't launch.

I feel like it's 1999 and I'm fudging everything just trying to get it to work.  Why they don't just send an email with a secure link to download my purchase is ridiculous.

I've contacted support but I'm really cheesed right now.  There's NO WAY it should be this difficult, in 2015, to get this to work without problems.

[erwinrafael]

Hmmm. Never encountered a problem with an HD Tracks purchase before.

[Kotowboy]

I've been told I can't buy because i'm in the UK.

[ProgressiveIce]

So, which is the CD and which the HDTracks⸮

I've been told I can't buy because i'm in the UK.

Yeah. I'd love to buy HDTracks releases, but they won't let me. Unless they fix their licensing stuff, I won't go near that site and just download the releases elsewhere...

[Zydar]

There are browser addons that changes the proxy so you can access stuff from other countries. Hola Better Internet is the one I use for Chrome.

[Kotowboy]

Thats what I use to get Netflix US

[Plasmastrike]

I've said it before along with many others, but HD Tracks vastly improve DT12. It's great stuff.

I also snagged HD Tracks of ADTOE, Black Clouds, and SC just for fun. Satisfied indeed.