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Clash of the giants: SFAM vs I&W

Started by ori.elias5, January 09, 2015, 03:43:49 PM

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SFAM or I&W?

Images & words
73 (48%)
Scenes from a memory
79 (52%)

Total Members Voted: 152

Calvin6s

I'm just worried somebody was so young that they didn't get the Will Ferrell reference.   :angel:

JayOctavarium

So... how about that Theam Dreather ? I hear they have a couple good albums called Scenes From An Image, and Memories And Words. Any opinions on which is better?

BRGM


The Letter M


ori.elias5

Quote from: Rodni Demental on January 13, 2015, 04:44:59 PM
Quote from: ori.elias5 on January 10, 2015, 05:27:14 PM
My favs are awake and SDOIT although it's hard to choose between the two

First of all, you're completely mad.  :xbones Not just that you haven't listened to those two (three?) albums, but I hope you're immune to preconceptions and expectations if you're coming in here and listening to us before experiencing these albums because that's just crazy. :P Although at least they're the ones that most people don't have too many bad things to say about them.

It's interesting that you like Awake and SDOIT, as those two essentially stem from both I&W and SFAM respectively. Literally obviously, but also indirectly and musically to varying degrees. So you might find it quite interesting to see what the band was 'up to' preceding your favourite albums. Maybe you did this intentionally?

Obviously you don't care about order, but at this point I'd go with I&W then ACOS (if you haven't heard that one at least I'd listen to it inbetween as it feels more like it'd belong on I&W) with SFAM last. At this point, I think you just need to remember that these two albums have been put on a pedestal (for better or worse) so I'd still try and go in with zero expectations if you want to get the most out of them.

My favourite is SFAM because I think it's the archetypal sound that ultimately became what modern DT is today, and Jordan's input on that album is phenomenal. As for I&W, well to me that's the marker for their much more refined yet developing style that started after their debut.

I dident.

just rolled on with the albums. began with awake and then i was amazed so i decided to go from the "worst" to the " best".
this was my order after awake based on my understening at the time: ( i often consider "newer" albums to be failures therfore my explanation to the order):

ADTOE- DT12- WADADU- BC&SL- SC- FIF- OC- TOT- SDOIT

now i have left ACOS, and the 2 giants.


1neeto

You still haven't listened to ACOS? Do it now!

ori.elias5

Quote from: 1neeto on January 16, 2015, 08:07:52 PM
You still haven't listened to ACOS? Do it now!

I will eventually!

I like to drag the expectations as long as I can so I have smt to wait for.

Guys so far very tight competition between the 2 albums

theseoafs

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on January 16, 2015, 06:01:03 AM
Quote from: npiazza91 on January 15, 2015, 07:19:56 PM
Just because you intend something a certain way, does not mean that was how it was received.  If intention mattered, Hitler would be a hero...just saying.
Hitler intended to kill all the Jews, Gypsys, and other non-Aryans.  That's not heroic. 

If you look at Hitler and think "well, his intentions were pure", then you're a few fries short of a Happy Meal.

bluehaze1933

Quote from: JayOctavarium on January 16, 2015, 02:29:07 PM
So... how about that Theam Dreather ? I hear they have a couple good albums called Scenes From An Image, and Memories And Words. Any opinions on which is better?
Perhaps they could do an album with Kanye West. I think he could do wonders for their career (tongue firmly in cheek)  ;)

Rodni Demental

Quote from: npiazza91 on January 15, 2015, 07:19:56 PM
You are aware that, no matter what you say, if someone takes it a certain way, YOU are in the wrong, legally?  Just because you intend something a certain way, does not mean that was how it was received.  If intention mattered, Hitler would be a hero...just saying.  Sometimes it helps to think before you say something.  You never know how someone will react.  Good life lesson right there.

No offence, but I would like to interject and say that is a terrible life lesson IMO. You shouldn't have to dance around other people and constantly worry how they're gonna respond to everything you do. If you react to someone a certain way, that's all you; your interpretation your reflection, your responsibility. Someone can act however they like, whatever they do is an expression of themselves (whether it's an honest one or not), but no matter what, you have a choice how you respond to it. Maybe not how you feel about it, but saying someone else should be responsible for how someone else chooses to react to their expression is a victim mentality that results in one normally perpetually blaming everyone else around them. If that's the comparison you want to bring up, perhaps "legally" things wouldn't get so ridiculous if people just took responsibility for themselves instead of finding ways to blame any one else for everything "bad" that happens to them. I'd prefer this interpretation as a life lesson.  ;)

JediKnight1969

Quote from: Mosh on January 12, 2015, 05:45:32 PM
The problem with that argument though is that Scenes is a concept album and it's more about the entire experience rather than the songs. So comparing individual songs to individual songs on I&W (which is song oriented all the way) is a bit unfair.

Agree.

BRGM


npiazza91

Quote from: Rodni Demental on January 17, 2015, 06:30:20 PM
Quote from: npiazza91 on January 15, 2015, 07:19:56 PM
You are aware that, no matter what you say, if someone takes it a certain way, YOU are in the wrong, legally?  Just because you intend something a certain way, does not mean that was how it was received.  If intention mattered, Hitler would be a hero...just saying.  Sometimes it helps to think before you say something.  You never know how someone will react.  Good life lesson right there.

No offence, but I would like to interject and say that is a terrible life lesson IMO. You shouldn't have to dance around other people and constantly worry how they're gonna respond to everything you do. If you react to someone a certain way, that's all you; your interpretation your reflection, your responsibility. Someone can act however they like, whatever they do is an expression of themselves (whether it's an honest one or not), but no matter what, you have a choice how you respond to it. Maybe not how you feel about it, but saying someone else should be responsible for how someone else chooses to react to their expression is a victim mentality that results in one normally perpetually blaming everyone else around them. If that's the comparison you want to bring up, perhaps "legally" things wouldn't get so ridiculous if people just took responsibility for themselves instead of finding ways to blame any one else for everything "bad" that happens to them. I'd prefer this interpretation as a life lesson.  ;)

Hey, listen, this is definitely a mature outlook on things, but sadly the world doesn't work this way.  Say you're at your job and you compliment a co worker on a shirt she has.  Guess what?  If she thinks you were sexually harassing her, you're going to get in trouble.  True, someone can act how they like, but this is a selfish way to think.  You, me, or whomever is not the only person in the world.  Everyone takes things differently, everyone comes from different backgrounds and such.  Being aware of other people is important.  If you say the word "fag" in public, and someone takes offense to it, is it HIS fault?  No, it's yours.  It's up to you to have a professional attitude.  Nobody's blaming anyone else, some people just have feelings.  Sounds cliche, I know, but it's true.  I'm extremely down to earth, but I'm also a person.  I'm sure there's something out there that makes you tick.  That makes everyone on this forum tick.  We're human.

npiazza91

Quote from: ariich on January 16, 2015, 02:01:49 PM
Quote from: npiazza91 on January 15, 2015, 09:41:41 PM
How would you know unless you were me?  "Putting someone down" doesn't come from the person saying it, it comes from the person receiving it.
Er, actually no, it comes from the person giving the comment. For sure, that person could be careless meaning the receiver misunderstands, in which case no problem in saying that, but King's comments did not require the tirade that you went on.

Now everybody chill out or I won't sex any of you later!

How do you know how "so and so" will react?  How do you know how ANYONE will react?  Just because it doesn't bother you, doesn't mean it won't bother someone else.  Not everyone gets offended by the same thing, you know.  If I said to someone "man, you run so damn slow" (for example) and it got them upset (for whatever reason), I would instantly say "Hey, my bad man, if it really hit you like that, I apologize".  True, sometimes we just don't know.  That's why we can always learn, and just going around saying "it's not my problem" is a very conceited way to go through life.

Listen everyone, all I'm saying is to be aware that everyone is different.  If any of you are one of those rare people that don't care about other people's feelings then I'm wasting my time.

Rodni Demental

#85
Quote from: npiazza91 on January 22, 2015, 08:10:32 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on January 17, 2015, 06:30:20 PM
No offence, but I would like to interject and say that is a terrible life lesson IMO. You shouldn't have to dance around other people and constantly worry how they're gonna respond to everything you do. If you react to someone a certain way, that's all you; your interpretation your reflection, your responsibility. Someone can act however they like, whatever they do is an expression of themselves (whether it's an honest one or not), but no matter what, you have a choice how you respond to it. Maybe not how you feel about it, but saying someone else should be responsible for how someone else chooses to react to their expression is a victim mentality that results in one normally perpetually blaming everyone else around them. If that's the comparison you want to bring up, perhaps "legally" things wouldn't get so ridiculous if people just took responsibility for themselves instead of finding ways to blame any one else for everything "bad" that happens to them. I'd prefer this interpretation as a life lesson.  ;)

Hey, listen, this is definitely a mature outlook on things, but sadly the world doesn't work this way.  Say you're at your job and you compliment a co worker on a shirt she has.  Guess what?  If she thinks you were sexually harassing her, you're going to get in trouble.  True, someone can act how they like, but this is a selfish way to think.  You, me, or whomever is not the only person in the world.  Everyone takes things differently, everyone comes from different backgrounds and such.  Being aware of other people is important.  If you say the word "fag" in public, and someone takes offense to it, is it HIS fault?  No, it's yours.  It's up to you to have a professional attitude.  Nobody's blaming anyone else, some people just have feelings.  Sounds cliche, I know, but it's true.  I'm extremely down to earth, but I'm also a person.  I'm sure there's something out there that makes you tick.  That makes everyone on this forum tick.  We're human.

I appreciate your response and I can see where you're coming from. But let me further explain myself regarding what I said if you think it's a 'selfish attitude', I suppose it could be seen that way. But might I add, I think people should be able to act however they like, without it being at the expense of someone else. So you can do whatever you like, but as soon as you somehow 'harm' someone else (note; not the same as 'offend' in the context I am using), then you have to take responsibility for that because expressing yourself should never have to be at the expense of anyone else. It's as simple as treat others the way you want to be treated, so if you prefer to treat everyone equally then this shouldn't be an issue (unless one has some kind of superiority/inferiority complex then one should probably find out why they feel that way). Now, if you're just expressing yourself with no ill intentions, and someone else gets 'offended' by misinterpreting what you did/said through their own insecurities, that's on them, their problem.. Wait, is that not how the world works? Damn, might aswell keep dancing around other people and conforming to their expectations while they blame you for crap you didn't do.  :justjen


Yeah, there's stuff out their that makes me tick. But if something makes me mad, whatever it is, says more about me than the actual thing that's making me mad, because I'm responding to it this way and I'm responsible for my actions. So I can't blame it for anything that I'm feeling. I can only perhaps try and recognise why it makes me feel this way and learn from it. IF I feel close enough to the issue that I feel some kind of moral authority to step up, then I'm making it completely about me, I'd be demonstrating an aspect of myself for better or worse. I would like to think I'm not very easily offended because I believe in freedom of expression, people should be allowed to joke around, and there's a playful or silly side to everything depending on your point of view if you don't want to take everything seriously. But people that are tragically serious about some things, are easily offended by otherwise harmless acts instead of the things that actually should make them mad, like deliberate inequality or something like that. Also, words shouldn't offend. If you really think about it they're not even physically capable of "harming" anyone (if they're not maliciously directed personally, but again, they say more about the one directing their intent). They're only symbols, although they're quite capable of reflecting ones insecurities.

Quote from: npiazza91 on January 22, 2015, 08:16:34 PM
How do you know how "so and so" will react?  How do you know how ANYONE will react?  Just because it doesn't bother you, doesn't mean it won't bother someone else.  Not everyone gets offended by the same thing, you know.  If I said to someone "man, you run so damn slow" (for example) and it got them upset (for whatever reason), I would instantly say "Hey, my bad man, if it really hit you like that, I apologize".  True, sometimes we just don't know.  That's why we can always learn, and just going around saying "it's not my problem" is a very conceited way to go through life.

Listen everyone, all I'm saying is to be aware that everyone is different.  If any of you are one of those rare people that don't care about other people's feelings then I'm wasting my time.

If I said to you, that's a despicable fluffy fluro hat you're wearing today and I hate you for wearing it. Would you be offended? Probably not because it wouldn't make any sense to you if you're not wearing a fluffy fluro hat and you'd wonder what the hell my problem was. But if you're afraid that what I said might be true, then it becomes your insecurity. If you actually are wearing said hat, it's still obviously starts out as my insecurity if your hat somehow upsets me. Being offended means you're afraid it might be true, but you don't need anyone to tell you anything if you're honest with yourself and not in denial about who you are, then who cares what someone else says? I hope I'm making the slightest bit of sense here and I appologise to the OP for getting completely off topic with this.  :mehlin

tl;dr
No point in blaming other people for anything, take responsibility for yourself and others will be responsible for their-selves. If you feel something that offends you is true (whether there's malicious intent or not) then you might not have been honest with yourself about something and someone's probably reflecting it back at you through themselves. If it's nothing to do with you, then why be offended unless you want to play their game and make it your business?

JLa

They're both great, but I listen to I&W far more. I think it's because I can't listen to only one or two songs off SFAM, I get this urge to listen to the whole thing, and I rarely have the time for that.

99/100 to I&W (99 because nothing is perfect) and 98/100 to SFAM.

Calvin6s

How did we get to talking about Hitler's sexual harassment of the LGBT community?

ariich

Quote from: npiazza91 on January 22, 2015, 08:16:34 PM
Quote from: ariich on January 16, 2015, 02:01:49 PM
Quote from: npiazza91 on January 15, 2015, 09:41:41 PM
How would you know unless you were me?  "Putting someone down" doesn't come from the person saying it, it comes from the person receiving it.
Er, actually no, it comes from the person giving the comment. For sure, that person could be careless meaning the receiver misunderstands, in which case no problem in saying that, but King's comments did not require the tirade that you went on.

Now everybody chill out or I won't sex any of you later!

How do you know how "so and so" will react?  How do you know how ANYONE will react?  Just because it doesn't bother you, doesn't mean it won't bother someone else.  Not everyone gets offended by the same thing, you know. 
Exactly, that's my point. Everyone is different, so you can't possibly know how someone will react, and pretty much everything you say could potentially be taken the wrong way by someone that you know. You're suggesting that if someone takes offense by what you say that it is your fault, but on that basis we should just never say anything because someone might take offense.

My point is, therefore, that as long as you are reasonably careful and considerate in what you say so as to reduce the chances of causing offence, then I think you're doing everything you need to. On occasion, someone will take offence at you, but that's not your fault.

Of course, if all you're saying is that it's polite to apologise when this happens, then I agree. Never hurts to be polite.

Wait, what's this thread about again?

Quote from: Buddyhunter1 on May 10, 2023, 05:59:19 PMAriich is a freak, or somehow has more hours in the day than everyone else.
Quote from: TAC on December 21, 2023, 06:05:15 AMI be am boner inducing.

hefdaddy42

Let's just say that I have had enough of the social commentary on offenses and people's taking of them. 
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 11, 2014, 08:19:46 PMHef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

npiazza91

#90
Quote from: ariich on January 23, 2015, 01:21:14 AM
Quote from: npiazza91 on January 22, 2015, 08:16:34 PM
Quote from: ariich on January 16, 2015, 02:01:49 PM
Quote from: npiazza91 on January 15, 2015, 09:41:41 PM
How would you know unless you were me?  "Putting someone down" doesn't come from the person saying it, it comes from the person receiving it.
Er, actually no, it comes from the person giving the comment. For sure, that person could be careless meaning the receiver misunderstands, in which case no problem in saying that, but King's comments did not require the tirade that you went on.

Now everybody chill out or I won't sex any of you later!

How do you know how "so and so" will react?  How do you know how ANYONE will react?  Just because it doesn't bother you, doesn't mean it won't bother someone else.  Not everyone gets offended by the same thing, you know. 
Exactly, that's my point. Everyone is different, so you can't possibly know how someone will react, and pretty much everything you say could potentially be taken the wrong way by someone that you know. You're suggesting that if someone takes offense by what you say that it is your fault, but on that basis we should just never say anything because someone might take offense.

My point is, therefore, that as long as you are reasonably careful and considerate in what you say so as to reduce the chances of causing offence, then I think you're doing everything you need to. On occasion, someone will take offence at you, but that's not your fault.

Of course, if all you're saying is that it's polite to apologise when this happens, then I agree. Never hurts to be polite.

Wait, what's this thread about again?

First of all, Rodni, great post by the way (just too long to quote).  I appreciate your view on the matter, same with you ariich.  When it comes down to it, why does it have to be ANYONE'S fault?  Is it really THAT BAD to say "oh shit, my bad dude, I didn't know that bothered you, I won't say it again" and move on?  It's not a contest, or an "I'M RIGHT!" debate.  However, each individual should just be aware of their surroundings and who they can potentially offend.  Why wouldn't you want to?  I know that I don't want to offend anyone.  Granted, I'm not going to analyze every word I say, but when discussing something or having a debate (for example), I always try my best to argue the opinion and not put down the person who has the opinion that I disagree with.  If someone told me that they loved Iron Man 3 (which I HATED), I wouldn't say "dude,  you're retarded, that movie sucked".  Like...why?  If I had known the person really well for a long time, then yes, we always take stabs at each other.  But there's also a certain level of professionalism when you're around random people.

Also, I disagree about treating people the way you want to be treated.  I like to treat people the way THEY want to be treated.  Because just because you don't mind someone saying a certain word or being called something, doesn't mean the next guy doesn't.  Sure, it's not up to us to take care of anyone, and I agree, everyone should strive to get thicker skin and better themselves.  But we as individuals know that not everyone does that, and there will ALWAYS be people with massive amounts of insecurities, so the best WE can do is to just watch what we say.  It really isn't hard and once people realize how you talk to them (believe it or not, people notice even the smallest signs of negative attitude in person) they are more likely to open up to you, trust you and confide in you, which is always a good thing.

You may think "why even worry about other people at all?"  Well, unfortunately we are surrounded by 7 billion other people, some of whom are part of our daily lives.  As much as we'd like to just act how we want (and we still can, but with limitations) we really can't fully do whatever we want.  Imagine if every single person just acted how they wanted.  It would be bad.  We have to take other people into account.  It's sort of like a preemptive compromise.

hefdaddy42

Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 11, 2014, 08:19:46 PMHef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

JayOctavarium

On the argument of Scenes being a concept album vs Images being a normal album... That doesn't mean shit. I enjoy The Division Bell just as much as The Wall even though The Wall is a concept album.



Quote from: hefdaddy42 on January 23, 2015, 07:45:27 AM
ENOUGH.


Don't Piss Off The Hef.

Rodni Demental

npiazza, I guess we're pretty much in agreement about politeness, I just don't have much patience for the some who would go around pointing the finger at other people without realising that what's upsetting them is part of themselves in the first place and thought it could bring up an interesting point of discussion but I guess this isn't really the place for it.  ;)

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on January 23, 2015, 07:45:27 AM
ENOUGH.

Fair enough.  :angel:  :-X

Quote from: ori.elias5 on January 17, 2015, 08:48:15 AM
Quote from: 1neeto on January 16, 2015, 08:07:52 PM
You still haven't listened to ACOS? Do it now!

I will eventually!

I like to drag the expectations as long as I can so I have smt to wait for.

Guys so far very tight competition between the 2 albums

So when do you plan on listening to the next one? Have you even decided which on will be next for you? Out of curiosity, have you explored any other DT content like bootlegs or live albums?

ori.elias5

Quote from: Rodni Demental on January 23, 2015, 03:19:08 PM


So when do you plan on listening to the next one? Have you even decided which on will be next for you? Out of curiosity, have you explored any other DT content like bootlegs or live albums?

I own most of the DVD's (LAL, LAB, BTFW, WADADR, Score) and while watching them i skip the songs i havent heard yet.
I also heard all of the B sides and the covers made by DT. I should get anyday the dark side of the moon DVD. as for right now, i'm waiting for summertime, hopfully i can wait that much and in the meantime i will dig the side project ( already digged OSI, Transatlantic and static impulse).

gonna be in NYC this summer so my plan is to give it a spin there, where it al began- that is my next album planning. still dunno what order tho :)


seltaire

That's really tough, both are my favorites. I'd have to say from a technical point of view, Scenes from a Memory is stronger, but Images and Words had some songs that really 'touched my soul' (don't laugh). I remember playing Metropolis and Learning to Live during some really dark times in my life over and over again.

Jaq

SFAM over I&W by a hair. The perpetual 1&2 in my list of DT albums.

kirksnosehair

Quote from: JediKnight1969 on January 18, 2015, 04:34:36 AM
Quote from: Mosh on January 12, 2015, 05:45:32 PM
The problem with that argument though is that Scenes is a concept album and it's more about the entire experience rather than the songs. So comparing individual songs to individual songs on I&W (which is song oriented all the way) is a bit unfair.

Agree.


Hmm....that's a good point.  I always struggle with this question.  And that's for two reasons:


1. I love both albums dearly so it's too hard to choose a favorite
2. SDOIT is better than both of these



Dublagent66

#99
This is how these two appear in my DT album ranking.

2.  I&W
3.  SFAM

Prog Snob

Quote from: kirksnosehair on February 17, 2015, 12:28:18 PM
Quote from: JediKnight1969 on January 18, 2015, 04:34:36 AM
Quote from: Mosh on January 12, 2015, 05:45:32 PM
The problem with that argument though is that Scenes is a concept album and it's more about the entire experience rather than the songs. So comparing individual songs to individual songs on I&W (which is song oriented all the way) is a bit unfair.

Agree.


Hmm....that's a good point.  I always struggle with this question.  And that's for two reasons:


1. I love both albums dearly so it's too hard to choose a favorite
2. SDOIT is better than both of these




Even though I prefer both CDs to 6DOIT, I can't argue with someone who holds 6DOIT in such high esteem.  Besides, the owl is very distracting and I have a headache now.  Well played.

Calvin6s

Don't forget that SFAM's daddy is I&W.