Show your love for JP in another useless poll!

[erwinrafael]

When I say musical composition skills, it's not really about songwriting. I am talking about composing guitar parts of a song. JP is excellent in this. But May is even better. His guitar work for example in Seven Seas of Rhye is sublime. And Bohemian Rhapsody is just perfect. It's like the perfect example of how to compose a moving solo, a kickass riff, and an amazing outro in one song. As muc as I love JP, i can not yet place any of his work near that. Or the emotional depths of Last Horizon.

[TheGreatPretender]

When I say musical composition skills, it's not really about songwriting. I am talking about composing guitar parts of a song. JP is excellent in this. But May is even better. His guitar work for example in Seven Seas of Rhye is sublime. And Bohemian Rhapsody is just perfect. It's like the perfect example of how to compose a moving solo, a kickass riff, and an amazing outro in one song. As muc as I love JP, i can not yet place any of his work near that. Or the emotional depths of Last Horizon.

But again, that's up to personal tastes. I think JP has written plenty of riffs and solos that I think are just as good as May's best work. Bohemian Rhapsody is perfect, and it captures all of that in a single song, which is amazing, but it's not like every Queen song is like that. And as much as I enjoy songs like One Vision, or Headlong, for example, their riffs are good for being simple and catchy, and on an average day, JP can blow them out of the water, if you ask me. But again, that's just personal tastes.

[erwinrafael]

I would say that in terms of riffs they are about even. DT is more riff-driven so maybe JP has an edge, but May's is really catchy. JP also has an edge in shredding. But in solos, May is definitely better for me. That man composes his solos like a song and they are beautiful. When I first heard Too Much Love Will Kill You's acoustic solo, I was speechless.

[TheGreatPretender]

But there's more to a solo than being heartfelt and soulful. Which, I mean, JP is very good at too, just listen to The Spirit Carries On or The Best of Times. But there are also shredding solos like in Voices or As I Am, or just really intricate solos like Under A Glass Moon.
Sure, maybe JP's more melodic solos aren't quite as heartfelt and tear jerking as Brian May's best, but that doesn't mean that the shredding and the intricacy of his technical solos shouldn't be counted at all. JP's strength is that he's extremely well rounded and he's really good at playing every style he's ever tried to play, and that's a long and varied list.

[TheCountOfNYC]

^What you said about John Petrucci being well rounded is exactly why I felt that not only should he have beaten Brian May, but he should have won the whole showdown. I truly feel that there has never been a single guitarist who can do everything as well as JP can. He has mastered every style of playing that he has attempted. He is an amazing musician and songwriter along with having virtuoso level chops. Regardless of what criteria someone chooses to judge  a guitarist on, John passes with flying colors. The only thing holding him back is recognition, but this bracket is asking for most popular. It's asking for best, and in terms of skill, John Petrucci should have won.

[TheGreatPretender]

Your argument is invalid because Queen.

[rumborak]

rumby, stop scrooging DT side.

But it's so goddamn entertaining!

Seriously though, I think if people made the argument "JP is the most versatile", I could see that. In a sense, he is the perfect studio musician, who can be put in front of just about any musical style and do a good job at it.
It's just that, most people associate the term "best" with "best at a particular discipline", not " doing a good job at the most disciplines ".

[TheGreatPretender]

Seriously though, I think if people made the argument "JP is the most versatile", I could see that. In a sense, he is the perfect studio musician, who can be put in front of just about any musical style and do a good job at it.
It's just that, most people associate the term " best " with "best at a particular discipline", not " doing a good job at the most disciplines ".

But what if you took like, four guys who each is best at a completely different discipline? And asked which one was the best, how could that even be decided, then?

[rumborak]

Music isn't an athletic competition where you can say "A jumped higher than B". Clearly people try to take the multitude of factors into account, and I think uniqueness, character and lasting influence are very important. In all three of them Brian clearly outdoes JP.
Regarding your comment that one can't compare yet JP and Brian in terms of lasting influence, when Queen stopped existing in '91, Brian had already been in the upper echelon of guitarists for more than a decade.

[TheGreatPretender]

Exactly, music is subjective. To say that one is clearly better than the other is impossible. If you value those particular qualities where May outdoes JP, that's fine. But other people might not. Personally, I couldn't care less about lasting influence because how a culture is shaped has nothing to do with how good a musician is. I mean, again, going back to my example of The Beatles, their lasting influence is immense, but I wouldn't call any one of them the best at their respective instruments.
Uniqueness and character are also subjective. I'm not sure how May CLEARLY outdoes JP in those departments. If by uniqueness you mean he had his own very signature sound, yes, he did, but with any artist that has a unique sound, as iconic as it may be, part of it comes from personal limitations. Look at David Draiman. He has one of the most unique singing voices in Metal, and you instantly know when it's him, but that pretty much nails him down into one particular style, and he'd have a hard time doing justice to certain other genres, because his voice is more suitable for Metal.
With Queen, yes, they were a very, very diverse band, but I would say that's mostly attributed to the fact that their songs were often led by different instruments. Between songs that were driven by drums, piano, or other types of keyboard sounds, if anything, I'd say there werent enough guitar driven Queen songs. Anyway, my point is, Queen's diverse sound didn't come because of May, but in spite of him, and even though he's a terrific guitar player, I'd be a lot more impressed if he had more diversity than that he has a recognizable signature style.

Again, clearly, this is a matter of what a person values the most, and yes, of course most people will pick Queen's guitar player over DT's guitar player because Queen has made more of a cultural impact and became the more popular band. But for my money, JP is a vastly superior guitar player to Brian May. To me, chops and versatility hold a lot more importance than uniqueness or character, neither of which JP is lacking either.

[erwinrafael]

To say that JPNis more rounded than Brian May is obviously ignorant of Brian May's output. Just like saying that half of Queen's output is synth oriented, given that Queen took pride in putting a no synth label in their albums, with May doing wonders in the guitar that people actually thought they were using synths.

[TheGreatPretender]

To say that JPNis more rounded than Brian May is obviously ignorant of Brian May's output. Just like saying that half of Queen's output is synth oriented, given that Queen took pride in putting a no synth label in their albums, with May doing wonders in the guitar that people actually thought they were using synths.

Well, I don't know what they were using. But I know that's not guitar I'm hearing leading songs like Radio Gaga, I Want To Break Free, The Show Must Go On and I'm Going Slightly Mad. To name a few.

[Kotowboy]

What ??

They absolutely used synths in Queen. Maybe not in the early days but they definitely did.

[KevShmev]

IIRC, The Game is where Queen starting using synths.

[erwinrafael]

Let me clarify. The statement I contested is the claim that half of Queen's output is synth oriented. Their entire 1970s discography does not have any synth whatsoever. All the synth-like sounds from Queen to Jazz are from the genius of Brian May's imagination of what a guitar can do. They started uaing synths in The Game, and even then, a lot of aongs in that album are not synth heavy, like Another One Bites the Dust and Crazy Little Thing Called Love. They became synth heavy starting in Hot Space, but they had lots of songs that are guitar heavy like Hammer to Fall. They cut down on the synths in Innuendo.

[TheGreatPretender]

They started uaing synths in The Game, and even then, a lot of aongs in that album are not synth heavy, like Another One Bites the Dust and Crazy Little Thing Called Love.

Yeah, but even those songs don't have anything special going on guitar wise.

And yeah, before The Game, they didn't use Synths, but instead, a lot of the songs were very piano driven instead. Heck, half of the awesomeness of Bohemian Rhapsody comes from the piano work on that song.

[erwinrafael]

You know what, I would stop arguing because you seems to be so unfamiliar with Queen's work with tour generalizations it's pointless. I personally do not comment on the body of work of musicians that I have not heard substantially all the work so that I can give an informed opinion about it. So in the case of guitarists, I only give opinions on May, JP, Vai , Page, Nuno and Hendrix. I personally do not see how anybody can say objectively say that JP is more versatile than a guy who played all sorts of styles from rockabilly to proto-trash to some prog to some classical to blues and country and several other styles.

[TheGreatPretender]

I personally do not see how anybody can say objectively say that JP is more versatile than a guy who played all sorts of styles from rockabilly to proto-trash to some prog to some classical to blues and country and several other styles.

Because JP hasn't played that many different styles? Between all of DT's discography and all the covers that DT has done, I think JP has more than proven that he can pretty much play any style Brian May can, and more. Just because he hasn't dabbled in rockabilly (that I know of) doesn't mean he wouldn't easily be able to do it if he wanted to. It's not exactly more complex than stuff he'd already done.

Of course, same goes for Brian May, for all we know he can shred faster than JP, and just hasn't shown it. But somehow I doubt that.

[KevShmev]

That doesn't make sense.  Queen was a far more diverse band than Dream Theater could ever dream of being, and while Petrucci is a beast, assuming he can just play any style he hasn't yet at a high level is silly; less complex doesn't always mean easier to play for every musician.  Considering that you yourself admitted to preferring chops over uniqueness and character, I am really happy I don't have your ears.

[erwinrafael]

See, you made the argument on versatility, but you can not even tell me concretely what musical style JP did that May did not dabble into other than shred. (and May did shred, you just have to be familiar with his work to point out which songs he made shredding solos.)

[TheGreatPretender]

That doesn't make sense.  Queen was a far more diverse band than Dream Theater could ever dream of being,

Yes, but we're not talking about the whole band, we're talking about one musician. Queen was in large part an effort of all four members, Freddie Mercury being one of the main composers of the band. And like I said, a lot of their songs weren't guitar oriented. Being a more versatile guitar player doesn't necessarily mean having a more diverse band. But like I said, with all the covers DT had done, they've JP has had the opportunity to play far more styles than DT's discography in particular expresses.

and while Petrucci is a beast, assuming he can just play any style he hasn't yet at a high level is silly; less complex doesn't always mean easier to play for every musician.

Not for every musician. But "JP has chops, therefore he can't play anything slow and mellow" is not exactly an accurate statement. He has proven that he can just as easily handle playing slower, more melodic passages as fast and intricate stuff.

See, you made the argument on versatility, but you can not even tell me concretely what musical style JP did that May did not dabble into other than shred. (and May did shred, you just have to be familiar with his work to point out which songs he made shredding solos.)

Well, how about Metal? I mean, yes, Queen dabbled in what can techincally be considered Metal, but they really weren't a very heavy band. Nothing at the level of Metallica, or heavier, the way DT has done, with Pantera inspired songs like The Glass Prison, or faster thrashier stuff like Honor Thy Father. JP dabbled in pretty much every subgenre of Metal short of Extreme Metal genres. And Metal in itself has a lot of very diverse sounds, which I'm pretty sure Brian May has never been interested in.

But nothing I can say will convince you, and frankly, I'm not trying to convince you. I think JP is more versatile, I think JP is a better guitar player, if you don't agree that's fine, but don't be saying that my opinion is invalid, dude.

[KevShmev]

Go listen to Stone Cold Crazy and then realize that that song came out in 1974.  It may not be Pantera- or Metallica-heavy, but for 1974, that was pretty damn heavy and fast.

"JP has chops, therefore he can't play anything slow and mellow" - I never said that.

[TheGreatPretender]

Go listen to Stone Cold Crazy and then realize that that song came out in 1974.

Revolutionary, different, awesome, yes. Way ahead of its time... Your point?

"JP has chops, therefore he can't play anything slow and mellow" - I never said that.

Right, so I think JP has proven that he's capable of playing slower more melodic stuff. So I'm fairly sure that if he ever wanted to play rockabilly, he wouldn't have too much difficulty with it.

[KevShmev]

Go listen to Stone Cold Crazy and then realize that that song came out in 1974.

Revolutionary, different, awesome, yes. Way ahead of its time... Your point?

Uh, that May could play metal, which you cleverly tried to dispute.

 

Right, so I think JP has proven that he's capable of playing slower more melodic stuff. So I'm fairly sure that if he ever wanted to play rockabilly, he wouldn't have too much difficulty with it.

But you don't know that.  But hey, if we are giving credit to guys for stuff we've never seen them actually play, I'll say that I'm fairly sure that Brian May could play any kind of extreme metal if he wanted to.  See, I can play that game, too.

[TheGreatPretender]

Uh, that May could play metal, which you cleverly tried to dispute.

I wouldn't call that song Metal, but okay "early metal" maybe. It's not speed metal, it's not thrash metal, it's not power metal, it's not symphonic metal. And again, I'm not saying that May couldn't learn to play those styles if he wanted to, but he certainly hasn't dabbled in them.

But you don't know that.  But hey, if we are giving credit to guys for stuff we've never seen them actually play, I'll say that I'm fairly sure that Brian May could play any kind of extreme metal if he wanted to.  See, I can play that game, too.

Maybe... But I haven't heard him ever play that fast, and I'm pretty sure he can't. But hey, chops don't count, right?

[KevShmev]

Again, something I never said.  You're really reaching now, since you keep trying put words in my mouth.  Enjoy your chops and leave the good stuff to those of us who can appreciate uniqueness and character.

[King Postwhore]

That song in that era was metal.  Come on TGP.

[TheGreatPretender]

Enjoy your chops and leave the good stuff to those of us who can appreciate uniqueness and character.

Okay, now you're just baiting me. You're basically implying that JP doesn't play "good stuff" or that he doesn't have uniqueness and character at all. But of course, that's just me putting words in your mouth. 

That song in that era was metal.  Come on TGP.

It was heavy for its era, but the heaviest music of any given era isn't automatically classified as Metal. But I mean, there are people out there who say that Led Zeppelin was the first Metal band and that AC/DC is Metal too, so, it's up to the individual definition, I guess. But I wouldn't call it Metal.

[TAC]

]I wouldn't call that song Metal, but okay "early metal" maybe. It's not speed metal, it's not thrash metal, it's not power metal, it's not symphonic metal. And again, I'm not saying that May couldn't learn to play those styles if he wanted to, but he certainly hasn't dabbled in them.

But those genres weren't even invented at that point, and further, they were built upon the foundation that Queen and many others laid.

[TheGreatPretender]

Yes, but being built on their foundation doesn't retroactively turn those bands into that genre. I man, Rock'n'Roll was built on the foundations of Blues artists, but that doesn't mean that those Blues artists should be classified as Rock'n'Roll as a result.

[KevShmev]

You're basically implying that JP doesn't play "good stuff" or that he doesn't have uniqueness and character at all.

Uh, no.  You are really reaching now.  I already said in this thread that:

a) Petrucci is one of my favorites.
b) Music is not all about chops.

So for you to think I am implying that Petrucci doesn't have uniqueness or character makes zero sense.   Of course I think JP has uniqueness and character (unlike many modern day shredders), otherwise how could be a favorite of mine?

[TheGreatPretender]

You're basically implying that JP doesn't play "good stuff" or that he doesn't have uniqueness and character at all.

Uh, no.  You are really reaching now.  I already said in this thread that:

a) Petrucci is one of my favorites.
b) Music is not all about chops.

So for you to think I am implying that Petrucci doesn't have uniqueness or character makes zero sense.   Of course I think JP has uniqueness and character (unlike many modern day shredders), otherwise how could be a favorite of mine?

I'm not reaching. All I'm saying is that I think Petrucci is the better guitar player, and chops have a lot to do with it. And you said, "Well, enjoy your chops, I'm gonna go enjoy the good stuff."

Music is not all about chops, I know that. But just because I really enjoy something simple and catchy like Twisted Sister, doesn't mean that I'm going to claim that JJ French is an amazing guitar player. He's not. He gets the job done, and I have total respect for him. And I'd listen to bands like Twisted Sister and Disturbed over, say, Yngwie Malmsteen or Dragonforce any day, because yes, it is about style over chops, when it comes to what one listens to. But just because I prefer the former two bands, doesn't mean I can't recognize that the latter two have superior guitar players.
Just the same, saying JP is a better guitar player than May doesn't automatically equate to, "therefore Dream Theater is a better band than Queen." Being a superior musician doesn't mean you have the superior band, but this discussion isn't about who's the better or more diverse band, this discussion is purely about these two individuals and their ability to play their instruments. And I think JP is superior in that particular area.

[rumborak]

On a separate topic, it's also worth pointing out that JP is slowly "winding down" in terms of skill. Many of his chromatic runs are done "let's make it to the end on time" vs the solid reproduction of the album material back in the day.
Again, this is all said in comparison to Brian May. I think it's pretty safe to judge JP's impact on the world of guitar playing at this point, since he's slowly winding down. And when you compare the corpus of both players by the time they wound down, Brian clearly was way ahead.

And to put it really succinctly, Brian May is a legend. John Petrucci, as good as he is, is not.

[MoraWintersoul]

To be fair, the 60's and 70's were the ideal time to claim legend status. Since the 90's and onwards, the rock music market had become so fragmented (this is a good thing) that there are simply no more legends of the instrument/vocal, everything has been done and invented before. Coming from someone who's favorite guitarist is Brian May, I think technical skill is way underrated nowadays because appreciating it gives you the reputation of the anti-musical nerd who jerks off to Yngwie Malmsteen, while the truth is way simpler - higher technical skill gives you more leeway and allows you to compose and play out anything you could possibly imagine. When combined with excellent songwriting, it gives you magnificent pieces of work such as... well, Images and Words?

For what it's worth, I don't think you could claim Brian May or David Gilmore are less technically skilled than JP? There is no god-given talent to make a prodigy play like David Gilmore plays, there is no way you can just pick up a guitar and translate emotion into sound. A lot of cold calculation and nerding off with the guitar must be done before you're capable of writing music history like the guitarists of the 70's did. A lot of the stuff they did then was cutting edge.

[Jaq]

Someone saying Stone Cold Crazy isn't a metal song.

Oh good lord.