ADTOE vs DT12

[ZKX-2099]

DT12 by a long long margin.

Ditto.

[Kotowboy]

I never got the hoo haa about the structural similarities between images & words and a dramatic turn of events.

If two songs having the same structure is now a bad thing then every rock band ever is guilty.

[ZKX-2099]

I'm fine with it but I get the "hoo haa" as well.

The On The Backs Of Angels/Pull Me Under similarity would be the one that hits me hardest.

[RuRoRul]

ADTOE easily.

DT 12 is one of their more forgettable albums. All the songs range from OK to good, but other than Illumination Theory (which is still not quite as good as some of their superior epic songs) none of them really stand out for me.

[BlobVanDam]

I never got the hoo haa about the structural similarities between images & words and a dramatic turn of events.

If two songs having the same structure is now a bad thing then every rock band ever is guilty.

Rock, pop, metal, a lot of genres often use similar structures. I don't think using the same song structure is even significant, let alone a good or bad thing. So many songs use the same structures that it's barely worth mentioning. It doesn't mean the songs are going to sound similar, it's just the most basic of framework.

[Kotowboy]

Which is why I don't have any problem with it at all.

If the band secretly wanted to copy the song structures of Images & Words as a fun experiment - then that's actually kinda cool.

The songs themselves sound vastly different so it's not even an issue.

How often do you listen to a new Dream Theater song and go :

" omg a verse ! how original guys...what next ? a bridge followed by a chorus ? ....Holy shit guys...what the fuck ? AGAIN ? "

[RuRoRul]

Which is why I don't have any problem with it at all.

If the band secretly wanted to copy the song structures of Images & Words as a fun experiment - then that's actually kinda cool.

The songs themselves sound vastly different so it's not even an issue.

How often do you listen to a new Dream Theater song and go :

" omg a verse ! how original guys...what next ? a bridge followed by a chorus ? ....Holy shit guys...what the fuck ? AGAIN ? "

Yeah agreed, I think some of the comparisons were forcing it a bit anyway but even if they did match the strucutures of some songs it's just a cool tidbit more than anything else, since the songs don't sound / feel like rip offs.

The fact that loads of songs share the same structure as well with no problem is a good point as well, but I guess I can see why it's more notable when songs with non standard structures are similar. A bit like if Christopher Nolan did another film with the same structure as Memento - it would get a lot more people people noting the similarity than if it had a structure similar to loads of other films.

The only song from ADTOE I actually thought was like one from I&W was Breaking All Illusions, which is a bit of a spiritual successor to Learning To Live. That's not a complaint though, and BAI is one of my favourite DT songs.

[Zook]

I don't have a problem with a basic verse chorus verse bridge verse/chorus, but Lost Not Forgetten borrows similar riffs and the exact structure of UAGM down to a T. It might be 3 minutes longer, but it's still the same damn song.

And even though songs like Endless Sacrifice, Sacrificed Sons and TMOLS have the same structure, they aren't the same song. Lost Not Forgotten IS Under a Glass Moon.


Finkle is Einhorn.

[GasparXR]

ADTOE has the best song, which is "Bridges in the Sky," in my opinion.  But DT12 is a start-to-finish musical and lyrical masterpiece, ranking just a notch behind I&W and Awake, in my opinion.  So my choice is DT12.

I had NO IDEA you liked it that much! It's good to see there's someone else other than me and TheStraySeed holding the album in such a high regard!

It's my favourite album tied with SDOIT, so I love it pretty much just as much if not more than you.

[darkshade]

ADTOE for me. That album is glorious from beginning to end.

There's something missing in DT12, I'm not feeling the magic too much, aside from the FAS/TEI, the instrumental, and IT; plus the hidden nugget is the best moment on the album, besides the orchestral section.

When the 40 second nugget is a top 3 moment of the album, something is amiss.

[Zook]

As nice as the Easter egg is, just like Eve, it's overrated as fuck.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

As nice as the Easter egg is, just like Eve, it's overrated as fuck.

Nah. Their praise is well warranted.

[Zook]

Your face is well warranted!


Wait...

[ThatOneGuy2112]

[Zook]

I'm sorry. I'll stop my nagging.

Hmm, I wont have to nag if you would all just agree with me... *goes to invent brainwashing machine, in non book form*



OH SNAP


Sorry, today sucks.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

 

It's cool. I just adore the Easter Egg and Eve, but I don't see them as DT's crowning achievements or anything. Great little tunes. On DTF they get lots of praise, but I think more attention to Eve in particular at least outside of DTF is well deserved.

[Zook]

I just listened to it after not hearing it in ages. Opinion still stands. Nice little song, nothing more.

Eve would make a good opener for TSCO, but I'd rather they used that time for something else.

[rumborak]

To me, Eve is a different league than the "Easter Egg". The former is a full song, whereas the latter is just a neat snippet.

[Mosh]

Eve is awesome.

The Easter Egg is cool but just a neat little bit at the end. Not as great as people say it is.

[Xenon]

Not as great as people say it is.

Well, that's not true at all cause, you know, opinions and stuff.

Anyway. Illumination theory really grow on my. I rank it above Octavarium for sure. Portnoy lyrics en octavarium ruin the song for me :/

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Not as great as people say it is.

Well, that's not true at all cause, you know, opinions and stuff.

but that was his


opinion

[Zook]

https://soundcloud.com/krotchraut/lost-under-a-forgotten-moon-sample

*runs*

[Dublagent66]

Can't for the life of me figure out why people like DT12 so much.  It's been pasteurized, homogenized, and recycled within an inch of its life.  But whatever...

That's a bit harsh isn't it? it's not like the whole album consists of a medley of previous DT moments and if anything, ADToE is probably more recycled given the structural comparisons to IaW (LNF being especially guilty of self-plagiarism). Also, people have given reasons for liking DT12, mainly: the more concise songwriting, great melodies and Mike Mangini having a larger presence (although I don't know how well I represent the part of DT's fanbase that is pleased with DT12). If you "Can't figure out why people like DT12 so much", you may need to pay more attention.

No, not a bit harsh at all.  Could've been much worse.  As others have pointed out, structural similarities are much different than musical copies.  Writing something fresh with a similar structure is not ripping yourself off.  I hear all kinds of self rip offs in DT12.  The worst part is, the first rip off I hear in the album opener (FAS) isn't even their own.  It sounds exactly like Symphony X.  I thought I was listening to Iconoclast.  Really?  You're starting out a new self titled album and it sounds like the beginning of another band's album?  Okie dokie.

Also, just because people have reasons for liking DT12 doesn't make it musically better than what they've done in the past.  I don't think it's musically better at all.  It has a few moments but I'll never like it in its entirety and if people disagree, fine.  I won't tell them they need to pay more attention.  Has nothing to do with that.

[Kotowboy]

https://soundcloud.com/krotchraut/lost-under-a-forgotten-moon-sample

*runs*

wow and I was actually expecting something revelatory. Not just the vocals from one song played over another....

[JayOctavarium]

https://soundcloud.com/krotchraut/lost-under-a-forgotten-moon-sample

*runs*

wow and I was actually expecting something revelatory. Not just the vocals from one song played over another....

This ^



I mean.. I do see the point... and I have always been in the camp with those who see a major similarity... but ya know... beating the dead horse and what not...

[theseoafs]

You could make the same shitty sounding recording with any number of DT songs with call and response choruses.

[Xenon]

Not as great as people say it is.

Well, that's not true at all cause, you know, opinions and stuff.

but that was his


opinion

I understand he's disregarding other people opinions, his opinion was the part I did not quote. Maybe I got it wrong, if that's it i apologize.

[TheGreatPretender]

As nice as the Easter egg is, just like Eve, it's overrated as fuck.

I agree with this. But the Easter Egg is barely 2 minutes, and it's right at the end, so it's easily skippable. There's still a whole incredibly stellar album that comes before it. And does it harm the album with its presence? Not in the least.

[Zook]

You could make the same shitty sounding recording with any number of DT songs with call and response choruses.

no u

[Mosh]

Not as great as people say it is.

Well, that's not true at all cause, you know, opinions and stuff.

but that was his


opinion

I understand he's disregarding other people opinions, his opinion was the part I did not quote. Maybe I got it wrong, if that's it i apologize.

All I did was give my opinion of the song. I'm allowed to think that it isn't worth the hype.

That's not to say I don't like it; it's very nice to listen to.

[Zook]

Alright I'll stop, but you people are in denial.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

All I did was give my opinion of the song. I'm allowed to think that it isn't worth the hype.

That's not to say I don't like it; it's very nice to listen to.

Maybe his issue was how you stated it very objectively. Just my thoughts.

https://soundcloud.com/krotchraut/lost-under-a-forgotten-moon-sample

*runs*

Nice manipulation there.

But nah, I see where that criticism comes from. First time Lost Not Forgotten comes up and I suddenly had this vague sense of familiarity. Of all the I&W/ADTOE similarities, this one holds the most ground.

Maybe this is just me, but I'm about as far away from formal musical education and knowledge of music theory as you can get. While, yeah, I can totally hear structural similarities between the two songs, I go more by feel when I listen to music, and LNF feels really nothing like UAGM. The former is dark, gritty, mysterious. The latter bright, warm, mystical.

Maybe it's just giving the salad a different dressing. Fuck it.

[Zook]

Mercenary has at least 3 songs with the exact same vocal melodies. EXACT. The verses are identical. It's bothersome.

Plus, I love Under A Glass Moon. Lost Not Forgotten sounds like a Korean bootleg of it. It's different, but they used the same mold.

[hefdaddy42]

FFS Zook

[JayOctavarium]

It's FFH Hef... and it's a rehash of Wait For Sleep