Did DT12 break new ground?

[GasparXR]

As a breakoff of the thread about DT changing musical directions, I thought it'd be neat to know where everyone stands regarding if you thought the self-titled broke any new ground for them, musically, because it seems like one of the more polarized aspects of the album.

Personally, I thought it absolutely did! Some of the song structuring is different from the way they've done it before, particularly in False Awakening Suite, The Bigger Picture, Surrender to Reason, and Illumination Theory. Another thing to mention is some of the actual melodic/harmonic ideas. They're very DT-like and probably the thing their fans know them for, and yet the way they're represented here are unique to this album. I love how in-your-face the album is, I think it actually adds to the softer songs. I feel like parts that mean to kick your ass, ie. Enigma Machine, Behind the Veil, Illumination Theory, do it like they're supposed to, even if the album is pretty compressed dynamically. They also showed quite a bit of individual restraint at many parts. Best examples are how much Jordan actually takes a relaxed, background role, in The Looking Glass, The Bigger Picture, especially. JP also noted that he was influenced by some more modern prog metal tendencies, particularly Periphery, and I hear that as well.

[hefdaddy42]

I voted "Maybe a bit."

It's still definitely DT, but where they did something different is that they focused more on songcraft this time, not letting songs expand and expand to ungainly lengths.  They were concise in their writing.  This gave songs that were more streamlined, and less bloated, than on most of their previous albums.

Note that this is not the same thing as being more commercial, selling out, or going mainstream.  That is not what happened here at all.

[Kotowboy]

Nah if anything it repaired it.

[TheGreatPretender]

I wouldn't say they broke any really new ground, but it was a showcase in great melodies, great lyrics, complex structures and awesome musicianship, everything that DT's music should have. Personally, I don't expect DT to break new ground again, nor do I want them to, necessarily. I just want them to keep making awesome and complex music.

[Zydar]

Nah if anything it repaired it.

This. It (together with ADTOE) was a return to familiar ground after SC and BCSL.

[TheGreatPretender]

Nah if anything it repaired it.

This. It (together with ADTOE) was a return to familiar ground after SC and BCSL.

But with better drums (both playing and mix) and improved vocals. Hopefully it'll keep going even further into that direction.

[ZKX-2099]

I would say yes. They did a great job with cutting the fat yet keeping the instrumental integrity.

I get the impression that the S/T style is what they were trying to do on Octavarium.

[TheGreatPretender]

I would say yes. They did a great job with cutting the fat yet keeping the instrumental integrity.

I get the impression that the S/T style is what they were trying to do on Octavarium.

All this. Although I'm not sure how that equates to breaking new ground.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

Not really but I still enjoy the album quite a bit.

[ZKX-2099]

I would say yes. They did a great job with cutting the fat yet keeping the instrumental integrity.

I get the impression that the S/T style is what they were trying to do on Octavarium.

All this. Although I'm not sure how that equates to breaking new ground.

Yeah, but I just wanted to make the 8VM statement.

[Outcrier]

I voted "Maybe a bit."

It's still definitely DT, but where they did something different is that they focused more on songcraft this time, not letting songs expand and expand to ungainly lengths.  They were concise in their writing.  This gave songs that were more streamlined, and less bloated, than on most of their previous albums.

The answer should be "no" then. DT already "did" all you have said a long time ago in Images and Awake.

[BlobVanDam]

I voted "Maybe a bit."

It's still definitely DT, but where they did something different is that they focused more on songcraft this time, not letting songs expand and expand to ungainly lengths.  They were concise in their writing.  This gave songs that were more streamlined, and less bloated, than on most of their previous albums.

The answer should be "no" then. DT already "did" all you have said a long time ago in Images and Awake.

And FII perhaps most of all.

[bl5150]

I'd say "a bit" too .............from my point of view the most important thing is that on the last two albums they got back the balance between musicianship and melodic songs that I'd been missing for so long.  I'm more than happy for them to keep on the current path as long as they mix things up a little along the way.  ADTOE and DT12 are Top 4 for me along with I&W and Awake .  So most of my listening happens at the "bookends".

[jammindude]

I voted "Maybe a bit."

It's still definitely DT, but where they did something different is that they focused more on songcraft this time, not letting songs expand and expand to ungainly lengths.  They were concise in their writing.  This gave songs that were more streamlined, and less bloated, than on most of their previous albums.

Note that this is not the same thing as being more commercial, selling out, or going mainstream.  That is not what happened here at all.

Absolutely THIS.   So I voted "Maybe a bit"...

Outcrier mentioned that they had already done it with IAW and Awake...but I wouldn't say the end result of DT12 sounds anything like the two aforementioned albums.  JR and MM really change up the dynamic enough to make DT12 a completely new hybrid.   So "maybe a bit" is very accurate in that sense. 

[Madman Shepherd]

Nah if anything it repaired it.

This. It (together with ADTOE) was a return to familiar ground after SC and BCSL.

I guess I could get behind this statement.  Really though, I don't think they have broken new ground since SDOIT maybe.  I don't really think a band needs to break new ground.  Just keep it interesting. 

[KevShmev]

Exactly.  This idea that a band has to reinvent themselves on every record for it to still be creative is so freaking stupid. 

ADTOE, for example, was, in plain terms, vintage DT with very little new ground broken, yet it was still great. 

Meanwhile, SC had them trying a bunch of new things, yet it wasn't that good. 

Funny how that works sometimes.

[JayOctavarium]

No

[BlobVanDam]

ADTOE, for example, was, in plain terms, vintage DT with very little new ground broken, yet it was still great. 

Meanwhile, SC had them trying a bunch of new things, yet it wasn't that good. 

Disagreed on both counts.
ADTOE broke no new ground, and was pretty average to boot, so it's really hard for me to find a reason to listen to it when I can listen to their older material that does it all much better instead.
SC isn't one of DT's better albums either, but it gives me an enjoyable listening experience in particular that I can't get from any other DT album, so if that's what I'm in the mood for, that's what I'm listening to.

[KevShmev]

That's fine, but generally speaking, the online fanbase agrees with me - ADTOE really good, SC just okay - but, personal tastes aside, my point still stands. 

[BlobVanDam]

Personal tastes aside, I don't even know what your point is, because it all just comes down to opinion. You gave yours, I gave mine.
Now let's shake hands and move along.

[Nearmyth]

It was different enough to be interesting, not different enough to truly stand out in DT's discography. Surrender To Reason was the only song that really blew my mind on the album, with it's crazy progression and interesting changes. I chose maybe a bit, it really isn't anything we hadn't seen from DT before, save a couple nifty moments. 

[Scorpion]

Personal tastes aside, I don't even know what your point is, because it all just comes down to opinion. You gave yours, I gave mine.

I think his point is that not every album needs to be experimental or ground-breaking to be a good album.

[KevShmev]

Pretty much, yeah.

[TheGreatPretender]

I agree. I'll take Systematic Chaos over ADTOE any day, but it has nothing to do with being experimental. It has to do with better music and more interesting songs.

[Kotowboy]

Personal tastes aside, I don't even know what your point is, because it all just comes down to opinion. You gave yours, I gave mine.
Now let's shake hands and move along.

Has the band ever asked you your opinion on albums ? You do a bit of work for them - do you give the usual " it's great ! I like it ! " answer ?

[ThatOneGuy2112]

I'm inclined to say "no".

And you know what? That's perfectly fine. As already stated above, the idea that every album has to break some fifth-dimension and shake the grounds of the genre as a whole to be good is dumb. DT12 is, in my eyes, the perfect DT-related example of great music that doesn't have to necessarily tread new ground in order to be successful. It does sound a bit like they've done it before, but then again, I'd be hard-pressed to give you specific songs/albums that sound similar beyond me just vaguely stating that "it sounds like DT".

It's biggest difference is definitely the more concise song-writing and their ability to have trimmed down their song lengths. I feel like this gives more moments on the record as a whole more purpose.

[Mosh]

I'm leaning toward yes. There are lots of new things on this album. A slight djent influence on the riffs, a more concise songwriting approach that is really unlike Awake, FII, or Octavariun, which were the other albums that took a similar approach. And what about the orchestral middle section of IT? When have they ever done anything like that? There are lots of new things on this album, way more than ADTOE.

And no, an album doesn't have to be new or groundbreaking to be good, but it certainly puts it at an advantage. My favorite DT albums are the ones that take a direction that's totally new for the band.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

No. The albums that have broken new ground, in my opinion, are:

Images and Words (the whole prog metal new cool kid in town thing)
Scenes from a Memory (the "definitive" sound of the band)
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (in terms of production and sonic experimentation)

[Tick]

Yes.

[SeRoX]

Exactly.  This idea that a band has to reinvent themselves on every record for it to still be creative is so freaking stupid. 

ADTOE, for example, was, in plain terms, vintage DT with very little new ground broken, yet it was still great. 

Meanwhile, SC had them trying a bunch of new things, yet it wasn't that good. 

Funny how that works sometimes.

Pretty much this.

[erik16]

And what about the orchestral middle section of IT? When have they ever done anything like that?

This!

Also, FAS, no opener like that on a DT album before. TBP has an unusual structure, and yet it is not a long track. Body-fat trimming has been done before but I'd say this is the time when they achieved the best result

Yet, I'd like the next album to be different from this one. And ADTOE as well for that matter.

[Kotowboy]

The Bigger Picture is weird because it has that crescendo like when they do epics but it's only a shorter song. It sounds a bit out of place. Like they tried to do an 8 minute Epic.

[Mosh]

The Bigger Picture is awesome because it builds and builds til the very end and they didn't need to write an epic to do that. It's my 2nd favorite on DT12.

[wolfking]

I voted 'Maybe a Bit'

It's DT and in the context of prog and metal, it doesn't break new ground, but in relation to DT there's quite a few things in there that are new to the band IMO.  Mainly IT.

[Skeever]

No way. Not even for them, let alone for prog metal in general.