Side Projects: Keeping Things Fresh or Diluting the Idea Pool??

[Stadler]

Might be my first thread start here...

What do you think?  Do you think that the current "fad" of many musicians having multiple projects at once is a good thing or does it result in more generic, by the numbers music?

I think there are examples of both:   I think Myles Kennedy is probably inspired by working with Mark Tremonti in Alter Bridge and equally inspired by working with Slash on his solo stuff.   So I would bet, not having been in the studio, that Myles is probably more creative than he would be otherwise.    But there are examples of guys who write things that "are for my solo album" versus writing things that are "for my main gig" and the forced editing I think makes things more generic.  Sometimes the "out there idea" when put in the hands of the rest of the band becomes by default (or by definition) what the band is about.    I am a massive MP fanboy, but I worry about that with him, especially with the non-Neal Morse projects.   AMob was SO one-dimensional, and while I like the Winery Dogs, it's not anywhere close to supplanting DT or Transatlantic or Flying Colors as my favorite MP projects.    Steve Harris - again, as much as I love Maiden (my first concert ever!) - isn't the most interesting writer in Maiden anymore, and his solo album kind of sucked.  I would have loved to have heard some of those ideas filtered through the crucible of Dave Murray and Bruce Dickinson. 

What do you think?

[tiagodon]

Sammy Hagar's (while in Van Halen) side projects were great, but Lee Roth's sucked;
Slash's side projects (while in Guns N Roses) were great, but Stradlin's and Duff's sucked;
Petrucci's side projects are great and Portnoy's are great....
Well, I think it adds to the musician overall quality when the side project is something musically different from his main project. When it happens, he doesn't have to save the best stuff for his main band. He is just exploring two sides of his talent that he loves.
But when the side project sounds like the main one, then I see a problem and the musician loses creativity for sure...

[YtseJamittaja]

I think this should be in GMD...

But IMO it's nice to hear something different from my favourite musicians. MP, for example, does music in so wide range that they can't "diluting the idea pool". But if the side projects are in the same vein of the original band, usually the side project is just to trying some new things and "keeping things fresh" I think.

[BlobVanDam]

Sammy Hagar's (while in Van Halen) side projects were great, but Lee Roth's sucked;

DLR didn't have any side projects while in VH, unless you count an EP of 4 covers.


I think side projects are a good thing. Musicians don't/can't always put every side of their sound into one band, so side projects are good for branching out and exploring other ideas. And I feel DT's sound is getting narrower lately, so I think side projects are good to satisfy all of their musical interests. It's hard to reach your full musical potential in one band, unless it's more of a one-man leader situation.

[KevShmev]

  MP, for example, does music in so wide range that they can't "diluting the idea pool".

Not really.  Most of his projects have been rock or metal with major or strong prog tendencies (DT, LTE, TA, solo Neal, Flying Colors, etc.).  Even the Winery Dogs, while being straight-ahead rock, is a style he has done plenty of times before (in songs across various albums over the years).

Also, I think it goes without saying that him doing so many side projects is what caused him to lose perspective a bit, leading to his departure from Dream Theater.

[cramx3]

JLB solo albums are amazing, those other musicians in DT arent the only ones doing great things on the side.

[TheGreatPretender]

It's not that it's diluting the idea pool per se, but the side projects do prove one thing.
As much as I like (nay, LOVE) DT12, and ADTOE wasn't half bad either, it's clear that DT as a band is at a certain point that they're afraid to deviate from. I can't blame them, they started deviating with SC (again as much as I love it) and BC&SL, and some of the fan response has been kind of harsh.

The point is, it seems like all these other ideas that they might have, they're a lot more comfortable with expressing in these side projects. Would it be great to hear these ideas make their way into DT music? Absolutely. But if they're making a conscious effort NOT to do that, they may as well express these ideas SOMEWHERE.

[rumborak]

Also, I think it goes without saying that him doing so many side projects is what caused him to lose perspective a bit, leading to his departure from Dream Theater.

I have always viewed it the other way around. I think he slowly lost interest with doing just straight prog metal, and that's when the "inspiration corners" started and the various side projects. For a while it seemed he was trying to mold DT into something different, and when that didn't work out, he jumped on the opportunity to play for A7X and then the request for a hiatus. And when he gets the chance to choose the musical direction (unlike Neal Morse solo for example), he seems to stay away from prog as far as he can, playing grease metal (Adrenaline Mob), Straight Rock (Winery Dogs) and pop rock (Flying Colors).
I frankly have the impression that Mike doesn't play in a straight prog outfit not because he can't find the right people, but rather because he plain doesn't want to. (and maybe also because he doesn't want to compete with his old band, against which he would likely lose).

[wolfking]

The more the merrier I say.

[Daso]

I frankly have the impression that Mike doesn't play in a straight prog outfit not because he can't find the right people, but rather because he plain doesn't want to. (and maybe also because he doesn't want to compete with his old band, against which he would likely lose).

What about Transatlantic? It's hands down prog rock and while it's not his main focus these days (as he has said TWD is), I feel he is quite into it.

OT: It certainly helps some artists. There's times they want to steer on a rather different direction than their main act's. On some cases they can bring in the influences they want for some bits, but there's cases where it's far too distant from the main sound and it lacks cohesiveness if just placed in there. If that's the deal, I'd rather have them doing side projects. Also, I think listening to other sides of an artist's sound is always rewarding if you actually like his/her music.

It does lack sense when the music is very similar to his/her main act's, though.

[rumborak]

Well, TA was created long ago, in 1999. I highly doubt he would create that kind of band these days. Again, I think he's fine continuing "legacy prog" bands like TA and Neal Morse, but I don't think he has much desire to do more proggy stuff on top of that. Case in point, with PSMS he had prime time prog potential, but it stayed at tribute band level.

[emtee]

More music is good IMO. I won't connect with everything but with a few for sure.

Specifically concerning MP I miss his prog metal side since he left. I totally understand him being burnt out on it...the big kit and
over the top playing for all those years but I do miss it.

[Stadler]

It's not that it's diluting the idea pool per se, but the side projects do prove one thing.
As much as I like (nay, LOVE) DT12, and ADTOE wasn't half bad either, it's clear that DT as a band is at a certain point that they're afraid to deviate from. I can't blame them, they started deviating with SC (again as much as I love it) and BC&SL, and some of the fan response has been kind of harsh.

The point is, it seems like all these other ideas that they might have, they're a lot more comfortable with expressing in these side projects. Would it be great to hear these ideas make their way into DT music? Absolutely. But if they're making a conscious effort NOT to do that, they may as well express these ideas SOMEWHERE.

I think TheGreatPretender gets where I was coming from in this.  I tend to think the "more is the better too" (especially with things like Bruce Dickinson's solo stuff versus Maiden), but doesn't at some point the notion of "safety" come in?   At some point, the music one makes with a band comes to define that band; at what point does the opposite occur, and the definition of the band then drives the music?    I'm trying to think of the best example here, and maybe Sabbath is one:   Heaven and Hell was the CONSUMATE album.  And both the band and Dio (solo) went on to do great things.  But when they started to get back together in the '90's and '00's, it was like "OK, massive riff!  Check!  Plodding drum beat! Check!  Demonic vocals! Check!  Token reference to 'Hell' and 'Rainbows'!  Check!"  They were good albums, don't get me wrong, but they struck me as being what they thought I thought Sabbath should be instead of what organically Sabbath was (which were the Martin albums to me).   Aerosmith is the same way for me.  Priest is getting like that (though in fairness I haven't heard the new album yet).   

I don't know; there is no right answer, just thinking out loud. 

[Rickharris1011]

This may be a bit obvious - but I think LTE was a great example of a wildly successful side project.  It gave JP and MP a creative outlet during the FII era where DT was pushed to produce radio-friendly music.  Obviously getting to meet and build chemistry with JR was huge when it came time to recruit him into the band (I sometimes think they formed LTE in order to recruit him into the band).  I also read somewhere in an interview that the way they wrote songs in LTE (over a short period of time in the studio) has become the norm since.

In general, I think it's easier for virtuoso musicians and singers to play in side projects because they're usually well connected with other musicians and have the ability/interest to play musical styles that are often outside the core of what they do as a band.  (JR is a great example)

It can be successful from a commercial perspective as well.  Jay-Z's made an entire career out of it

[Setlist Scotty]

Also, I think it goes without saying that him doing so many side projects is what caused him to lose perspective a bit, leading to his departure from Dream Theater.

I have always viewed it the other way around. I think he slowly lost interest with doing just straight prog metal, and that's when the "inspiration corners" started and the various side projects. For a while it seemed he was trying to mold DT into something different, and when that didn't work out, he jumped on the opportunity to play for A7X and then the request for a hiatus. And when he gets the chance to choose the musical direction (unlike Neal Morse solo for example), he seems to stay away from prog as far as he can, playing grease metal (Adrenaline Mob), Straight Rock (Winery Dogs) and pop rock (Flying Colors).
I frankly have the impression that Mike doesn't play in a straight prog outfit not because he can't find the right people, but rather because he plain doesn't want to. (and maybe also because he doesn't want to compete with his old band, against which he would likely lose).

That's not the case at all - take it from someone who's talked to him personally about it. He still is into prog metal, but at this time he is focusing on various other styles of music, since he dedicated so much of his life to prog metal in the past. And as you said, PSMS is the closest that he's come to doing prog metal again. Yeah, all they've done is perform songs they previous wrote for solo albums or other bands, but that doesn't mean at some point down the road they may not put out original material. Time will tell.

And since you mentioned about "inspiration corners", keep in mind that this was something that the band had been doing from the beginning - it only became known to the public beginning with SFaM and SDoIT. For instance, MP recalled that Queensryche's Operation: Mindcrime was in "inspiration corner" for WDaDU. It was only with BCaSL that the specifically did *not* have an "inspiration corner".

It's not that it's diluting the idea pool per se, but the side projects do prove one thing.
As much as I like (nay, LOVE) DT12, and ADTOE wasn't half bad either, it's clear that DT as a band is at a certain point that they're afraid to deviate from. I can't blame them, they started deviating with SC (again as much as I love it) and BC&SL, and some of the fan response has been kind of harsh.

The point is, it seems like all these other ideas that they might have, they're a lot more comfortable with expressing in these side projects. Would it be great to hear these ideas make their way into DT music? Absolutely. But if they're making a conscious effort NOT to do that, they may as well express these ideas SOMEWHERE.

I think TheGreatPretender gets where I was coming from in this.  I tend to think the "more is the better too" (especially with things like Bruce Dickinson's solo stuff versus Maiden), but doesn't at some point the notion of "safety" come in?   At some point, the music one makes with a band comes to define that band; at what point does the opposite occur, and the definition of the band then drives the music?

I totally get what you are saying Stadler, but I don't necessarily think that band members doing side projects is what causes a band to change so that "the definition of the band then drives the music". Not saying that it couldn't, but I think it has more to do with the members of the band, the success/popularity of what they've already done and the type of audience they have - primarily the band members.

If the band members are the type that continue to push on, come hell or high water despite the success they have had with their previous output (Rush comes to mind), then the definition of the band won't define new music. OTOH, if they either lack the motivation to try new things or become a bit focused on worrying about what their audience is gonna think, then I do think that the definition of the band will define any new music they do. Side projects can influence the main band's subsequent output, for good or for bad, but I don't think that is one of the primary causes for why many bands turn that corner into allowing who the band is to dictate the direction of new material.

[KevShmev]

Yeah, I've never thought he lost interest in prog metal.  I just think he is stuck in a spot where there is no viable option (when you consider that he is not gonna do a project that is not financially successful).  Prog metal is very much of a niche subgenre, one where you need a good songwriter to be successful at all at it (like any genre), and the good songwriters are either already in established bands and don't need a drummer or are young, still unknown and on the rise (and if you are, say, a 22-year old songwriter, why do you want a 47-year old man as your drummer?).  Even if PSMS wrote original material and became a full-time band, would they make money and be anything more than a niche act?  Doubtful.  In the prog metal genre, there are very few John Petruccis.

[Invisible]

When it comes to Dream Theater, I think we can hardly blame them for keeping their core sound, considering each time they deviated from it the fans gave them a hard time, even if over the years those same albums became appreciated, like FII or Six Degrees. Of course, they could have the attitude "screw the fans, they'll understand at some point" but that's easier said than done. The other thing is that we have no evidence if they even want to change that sound.

I think they are comfortable in this position, and they have their oportunities to express other sides of themselves through the side projects, which in case of JP there have been none for quite some time, maybe indicating that DT is all he needs(or maybe he doesn't have enough time).
As for JR,  probably the one more discussed, I always doubted who established the boundaries, him or the band. I always wondered if he had an idea in a different direction if he would present it to the guys and see if it gets a pass or if he alone decides "No, this isn't for Dream Theater". In the former case I would say the sides projects are helping, in the latter, I'm not sure.

Overall, I agree with the general statement, no one as multi dimensional and talented as these guys can be fully satisfied in one band, especially if it's democratic. So the side projects help them to show and explore new sides, and that's great, as long as they don't start saving ideas for the side project insted of trying them to work within the band(which again, there's no evidence that this is the case).

[King Postwhore]

But as a musician, you don't cater to you fans.  You put out what you like and hope it's accepted.  Ever band would go insane reading every fan's want on the interwebs.  I imagine, Mike's ODC in reading this all drove him nuts.

[rumborak]

Yeaaaah though.... I'm not sure this artistic ideal applies completely anymore to DT. MM, and one can only assume that he spoke for the consensus of the band, made the comment "DT has a core sound, and we won't deviate from that. If I want to listen to Kreator, I will buy a Kreator CD."

[Setlist Scotty]

Yeaaaah though.... I'm not sure this artistic ideal applies completely anymore to DT. MM, and one can only assume that he spoke for the consensus of the band, made the comment "DT has a core sound, and we won't deviate from that. If I want to listen to Kreator, I will buy a Kreator CD."

That's the one thing that concerns me regarding all of DT's future output. As much as I hated the harsh/extreme vocals that MP started introducing on the last couple albums he was on, for the most part, he was the one that seemed most willing to push the boundaries of DT's new music in a pretty reasonable way (aside from those vocals). Not saying that I liked all the recent albums with MP more than the earlier stuff, but at least it felt like they were trying new things. In an interview I did with MP in 2002, we were talking about Queensryche and Metallica's (then) latest albums and he commented about the core sound:

With Dream Theater, we always want to progress every album we make, we want to go in new places. But we never want to go in those new places at the expense of what is the style and sound of the band. Does that make sense? It's one thing to expand your horizons, to experiment and try different things, but you gotta keep one foot in the ground where your roots are. As long as you can keep one foot in the ground and grow from there, I think that's the key. I think both Queensryche and Metallica went too far off on a tangent, and it was at the expense of what made them so unique and special.

With both the s/t album and ADToE, it seems like the band is backing away from pushing the boundaries in any direction. Whereas the band previously kept one foot on the ground and allowed the other to venture into new territory, judging by the two MM-era albums, DT seems quite happy to keep both feet on the ground regarding their core sound.

[Rodni Demental]

Side projects, they're great. The more the merrier indeed.

There are a couple of perspectives that could indicate good or bad reasons for this. But I think the effects are mostly positive for the artist and their listeners. Just a few thoughts, I'll try to stop before it turns into a mini-novel though.

The 'core sound' thing is an interesting issue. Most of the time a band will retain a 'core sound' simply because of the member's personal taste, style, technique. Sometimes the biggest change to a bands 'core sound' will be a different musician stepping in. Considering JPs guitaring style. (It's hard to describe accurately because it's a fairly interpretive thing to discuss) whatever the defining elements; we all know JP has his style. And whenever you hear him play, you can normally say "That's some JP guitar work right there". There's a Periphery song where JP does a guitar solo, and it's so obvious it's him. In fairness it was pointed out to me before I got to figure it out, but I had a friend who noticed it sounded like his style, we looked it up and discovered the Periphery/Jake Bowen connection. What I'm getting at, is that when JP plays any style, his technique still comes through and it can still sound like HIS playing. And that's just absolutely inevitable once a musician has established their own style, no matter how many genres they might play around with or test out. A lot of people seem to think that DT are playing it too safe, and they might well be to a certain extent, but it all still sounds pretty new to me. As in, I haven't heard it before, and I wasn't thinking DT12 was a rehash of older stuff. Hell, ADTOE doesn't even feel like that to ears that aren't familiar with I&W and even that whole 'rehash' thing was more clever and subtle references as opposed to treading old territory just for familiarity's sake imo.

Another perspective is that a musician may wear out their creativity because there are too many outlets. You guys probably know the whole Metallica thing with James Hetfield and the Jason Newsted's Echobrain side project ordeal. Long story short, JN ended up leaving Metallica because (presumably) JH didn't want other band members involved in side-projects because it might take away from Metallica. There could be some validity to that notion, in that potentially awesome creative ideas get expressed in a different form and so one could view it as a wasted opportunity for the bigger entity (Metallica in this case).

But I think it shouldn't matter. I mean, the most meaningful songs are normally the ones that are just true or sincere in where they're coming from, no matter what the subject matter, the writer believed in what they're creating. And beyond that, songs can become more overcontrived by spending too much time on it (of course there are many good examples of extremely overly 'contrived' songs being amazing). My point is, who cares about the specifics of the outlet if you can appreciate something for what it is anyway. Mark Tremonti rekons that Creed won't be getting together anytime soon and they seem to have had an 'unofficial' second break-up after the reunion and new album in '09. But this man is known for never wasting a single idea. I was an instant fan of the first Alter Bridge album as soon as I heard it in '04 slightly after the first Creed break-up, and yes, I used to follow that band, "for shame" (even though I never really got the Mainstream hate for Creed, they get as much hate as a band like Nickelback somehow. Is it because Scott Stapp is as bad as Chad Kroeger? what's up with that??  ) Anyway, I remember thinking some really cool ideas were 'wasted' on the Full Circle Creed album because I wanted them to be in Alter Bridge. But then I realised it was a little bit silly to get worked up about something like that, because simply put, Alter Bridge wasn't the right outlet for that music at the time.  Apparently Creed were working on a new album in 2012 but Tremonti used a lot of the ideas that were gonna be on this album on his Solo album instead, known as: Tremonti. Albeit, probably made it a bit heavier but I tend to believe he wouldn't waste single chord progression.