DT Specials

[BlobVanDam]

I wouldn't call AFTR a hard arena rocker. They're both just ballads to me, AFTR just has a heavier full band arrangement, as most of DT12 does, but essentially it's still a ballad, not a rocker.

Eh, call it what you want.  The song's heavier than a lot of people give it credit for; there's a lot of chugga-chugga, especially in that second verse.  It's heavier than anything Journey ever did, so I would feel comfortable calling it a hard arena rocker as well as a ballad. 

The point is that some people massively overstate the similarities between the two songs because they want a nugget to be there. 

Journey have done plenty of heavier songs, despite not being a heavy band. AFTR is just a heavier ballad, overly drenched in guitar as most of DT12 is, but it doesn't change the fundamental style of the song. I wouldn't even use any of the individual words "hard", "arena" or "rocker" to describe it. Those all imply completely different things to me than what AFTR does.
Labeling it as a ballad isn't about proving similarity, it just is what it is.

[Invisible]

A Power ballad, then?

As for the similarities between half of ADTOE and half of I&W are too obvious to even discuss about. It's just charts and flows, not melodies, so it's not like it's a rip off or anything. Still, people have taken it too far, the back to back similarities over almost the whole song are in On The Backs of Angels/Pull Me Under, which is not as noticeable since Pull Me Under doesn't have a very special arrangement to begin with(it's a pretty common verse/bridge/chorus with some tweaks here and there), the one that screams at you is Lost Not Forgotten/Under a Glass Moon, the sliding intro, the bass and drums joining in, the guitar with that stop-and-go riff afterwards, the chorus, the solo... and they are still different songs, UAGM still has that dreamy magical quality of I&W, LNF is more of a hard rocker.

Then you have the others similar sections, but different development:
This is The Life(Another Day), almost the same chart, but stays quiet and mellow the whole song unlike Another Day who has that soaring section "They took pictures of our dreams..."
Outcry/Metropolis, again some similarities appear here and there to justify the comparison, but inside the arrangement Outcry has a verse/chorus structure, something that Metropolis lacks completely.
Breaking All Illusion/Learning To Live: they start off the same chart, but they go different directions somewhere along the middle.

The other ones are completely a stretch, Far From Heaven and Wait For Sleep have nothing in common other than both being a piano+vocal short song. The fact that they both stem from very different composers behind the keys makes a huge difference and nothing to be able to draw comparisons. And I won't even analyse the other ones as it is obvious that they share almost nothing in common other than the normal comparisons because it's the same band that wrote the songs.

All in all, the result is a rather safe album because of all the familiar elements, but it still has its own distinctive personality. It's not like it's they are the first DT songs to share a similar arrangement as other. It's a common thing for a band of DT age to have a "go back to the roots" album somewhere along the road, and as long as it is good, I don't mind.

[Rodni Demental]

Just wanted to clarify, my point about people finding their own nuggetz meant; an idea of what they represent can exist unintentionally by noticing an artistic choice that could relate to something else. Besides, it's the listener that makes those connections whether they're there or not. Some people will hear a familiar riff or motif and claim an artist ripped off another song that coincidentally has a strikingly similar patterns (didn't this happen with Endless Sacrifice and a Michael Jackson song?). It's possible an artist unconsciously heard this other song and wrote it down, but more often than not, it's just as likely that they discovered a similar pattern all on their own. Okay teh nuggetz thing that MP did was a lot more intentional, and perhaps it's not the correct term to describe when an observer notices some kind of synchronicity or relation of two ideas within something to which the composer did not even consider to be intentionally similar. But it's still a phenomenon that will always exists with writers and artists, they're always internally drawing from the same source of creativity that they always have been. Which is normally creating something that excites them, and if this is the case then I think it goes without saying that similar themes will inevitably be explored from similar, if not slightly differing perspectives. And I hate to use the argument of absence, but, we don't know what JP intended or which similarities he's even considered because music is an abstract artform that probably shouldn't even be limited to single definitions of one way perspectives. There's even a chance to evoke brand new meaning for a listener if they can project their own ideas into a song, which creates an experience completely unintended by the composer. Maybe if JP confirmed which is which, then these semantic discussions about their music can be put to rest for better or worse .

But I think it's very clear that ADTOE being familiar was intentional, and maybe AFTR wasn't intentional, but by god it came out familiar enough. I hope they use the formula, JR needs to re-use that divine synth tone.. again! 

[George Eliot]

Hello, I am new to the forums, and a fairly new DT fan.  I am really enjoying this thread and I have something to add about DT12 that I think is pretty cool.  I can tell that ADTOE seems to be the hot subject so I hope you don't mind if I digress a little.

First off, JP said in a couple of interviews about DT12 that there was an intended musical theme or ark through the album in which TBP is the center piece.  This isn't new for DT because they did a similar thing on SFAM and Octavarium.  As a musical concept, DT12 is more similar to SFAM than Octavarium because it has a distinct beginning, middle and end.  However, there is one thing that sets this one apart a little more, and that is the beginning and end.  DT12 starts very explosive with FAS and then ends very soft and mellow with the easter egg (I think that is what it is called) at the end of IT, or in other words "in like a lion and out like a lamb".  This saying is generally attached to the month of march but they are also strong christian symbols.  Considering the religious nature of some of the members of the band, there could be something to that.  I'm not saying that March, as a month, has anything to do with the concept except that the album follows the same pattern.  Also, the end of march is the end of winter and the ushering in of spring which can tie into IT in a round about way because spring is the time of illumination, and it also suggests the new beginning DT wanted this album to be.  There is also the dangerous myths surrounding the ides of march, particularly with the assassination of Ceasar by his friend Brutus.  I think this can tie in with the lyrics of TBP particularly with the words "bleed" and "prophecy" which pertain to the ides of march as portrayed in the play by Shakespear.  The ides of march are also the middle of march just as TBP is the middle of DT12.  There are other parallels I could make, but I will stop here.

Perhaps you all might think this is a bit of a stretch, and perhaps it is, but it sure was fun for me to think through it.

[BlobVanDam]

I think it's a stretch, but that's what we're all about at DTF! Welcome to the forum.

[Invisible]

Just wanted to clarify, my point about people finding their own nuggetz meant; an idea of what they represent can exist unintentionally by noticing an artistic choice that could relate to something else. Besides, it's the listener that makes those connections whether they're there or not. Some people will hear a familiar riff or motif and claim an artist ripped off another song that coincidentally has a strikingly similar patterns (didn't this happen with Endless Sacrifice and a Michael Jackson song?). It's possible an artist unconsciously heard this other song and wrote it down, but more often than not, it's just as likely that they discovered a similar pattern all on their own. Okay teh nuggetz thing that MP did was a lot more intentional, and perhaps it's not the correct term to describe when an observer notices some kind of synchronicity or relation of two ideas within something to which the composer did not even consider to be intentionally similar. But it's still a phenomenon that will always exists with writers and artists, they're always internally drawing from the same source of creativity that they always have been. Which is normally creating something that excites them, and if this is the case then I think it goes without saying that similar themes will inevitably be explored from similar, if not slightly differing perspectives. And I hate to use the argument of absence, but, we don't know what JP intended or which similarities he's even considered because music is an abstract artform that probably shouldn't even be limited to single definitions of one way perspectives. There's even a chance to evoke brand new meaning for a listener if they can project their own ideas into a song, which creates an experience completely unintended by the composer. Maybe if JP confirmed which is which, then these semantic discussions about their music can be put to rest for better or worse .

Maybe because this isn't my native language, or maybe because I'm too dumb, but this post made me dizzy.

As for every other nugget/similarity, they either can be intentional or not, it is possible for two people to come up with the same idea, especially considering there are billions of us out there, but it all depends on how similar they are(BTW which Michael Jackson song? I can't pick anything from ES that sound like him). The term rip-off is also a delicate subject, if we're too judgemental, almost everything is a rip off, since every idea evolves from a previous one, you can't create anything without a source material.
On DT12, for like 5 minutes I had the theory that every album was represented in a very short, 5 seconds way after I spotted some tiny bits on Enigma Machine that are almost identical to Erotomania and The Count of Tuscany/ANTR, and the Misunderstood-like weird solo on Surrender To Reason. But since I failed to spot the other albums, I dropped the theory.
As for AFTR/BTS, they are just two ballads with a moog solo, but AFTR evolves into a full band approach and that makes quite a difference.

George, welcome to the forum, I like your conspiracy theory, but I also think it's a stretch. I never heard JP say there's a musical theme, even if I heard him say that The Bigger Picture is "like a center piece". I also heard him saying the lyrics were about his job as producer, but I'm not sure if he meant it inspired him to write the lyrics or that it was the actual meaning of the song. It does make sense on some parts, especially the "I must bare this cross alone / There's no one else to blame" since he lost MP as a partner. It is kind of a bummer that such a poetic song has such an unpoetic meaning, but that's just how JP comes off sometimes when he explains his songs.

[George Eliot]

I think it's a stretch, but that's what we're all about at DTF! Welcome to the forum.

George, welcome to the forum, I like your conspiracy theory, but I also think it's a stretch. I never heard JP say there's a musical theme, even if I heard him say that The Bigger Picture is "like a center piece". I also heard him saying the lyrics were about his job as producer, but I'm not sure if he meant it inspired him to write the lyrics or that it was the actual meaning of the song. It does make sense on some parts, especially the "I must bare this cross alone / There's no one else to blame" since he lost MP as a partner. It is kind of a bummer that such a poetic song has such an unpoetic meaning, but that's just how JP comes off sometimes when he explains his songs.

Thanks for the welcome!  Here is is the interview where JP talks about the musical concept.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPQ6egJDqQo

I am a bit of a literature buff so that's probably where the ides of march and Shakespear thing came from.  I just couldn't help notice the similarities.  But you are right, TBP probably was not intended to have anything to do with the Shakespear play.  But, it is possible that he may have read the play before and it subconsciously came out in his lyrics.  It happens to authors and poets all the time and they don't even realize it.  Then it takes others to discover it.  Then again, it's probably a stretch.

And yes, JP is a brilliant lyricist but he never does his lyrics justice when he tries to explain them.

One of the reasons I have come to like DT is the fanbase just goes nuts with the connections within albums, between albums and between songs both lyrically and musically.  I loved reading this thread so I just had to join in with my own idea.  Maybe I will post my idea on a new thread once I have fleshed it out a little more.  Anyway, it's good to be part of a group of like-minded people.

[Rodni Demental]

As for every other nugget/similarity, they either can be intentional or not, it is possible for two people to come up with the same idea, especially considering there are billions of us out there, but it all depends on how similar they are(BTW which Michael Jackson song? I can't pick anything from ES that sound like him). The term rip-off is also a delicate subject, if we're too judgemental, almost everything is a rip off, since every idea evolves from a previous one, you can't create anything without a source material.

It's the guitar riff. Michael Jackson - Give In To Me

In all fairness, this one is more understandable to be considered a 'rip off' than any other examples where people make these comparisons (The Looking Glass/Limelight, BMUBMD/That Red song etc.) I think most of the time it's a stretch but the Endless Sacrifice is just completely uncanny. I still think it's probably a coincidence as it's a simple pattern based on some arpegeo picking in E minor on a lot of open strings. I just think anyone could figure out a pattern like that on open strings, not to say it's too basic because I think it's quite effective, I just don't think it's a particularly unique enough pattern for JP to bother ripping it off. I'm thinking it's more likely he was completely unconscious of the riff being nearly identical to MJ.

[robwebster]

George, welcome to the forum, I like your conspiracy theory, but I also think it's a stretch. I never heard JP say there's a musical theme, even if I heard him say that The Bigger Picture is "like a center piece". I also heard him saying the lyrics were about his job as producer, but I'm not sure if he meant it inspired him to write the lyrics or that it was the actual meaning of the song. It does make sense on some parts, especially the "I must bare this cross alone / There's no one else to blame" since he lost MP as a partner. It is kind of a bummer that such a poetic song has such an unpoetic meaning, but that's just how JP comes off sometimes when he explains his songs.

It's the right way round, though - better to find the beauty in something mundane than convey a really interesting concept prosaically.

I think it's written in such a way that it's not tied down to JP's interpretation. What JP put in isn't necessarily what the listener would put out - he's deliberately made it ambiguous, and something you'll be able to relate to and find meaning in if you're not a music producer. I tend to think the idea that, "Oh, the lyrics are about whatever you think they're about" thing is often pseudy nonsense, but he's taken pains to describe not the activity but the state of mind it provokes. It's not about producing an album, he's omitted those bits, and written about the self-doubt, the fear of getting it wrong, the things that give you strength and support in those times, and the triumph of finding that perfect path - which are universal themes, that the listener will recognise and match to their own life in different ways. Producing an album was just the thread he tugged at.

[Invisible]

It's the guitar riff. Michael Jackson - Give In To Me

In all fairness, this one is more understandable to be considered a 'rip off' than any other examples where people make these comparisons (The Looking Glass/Limelight, BMUBMD/That Red song etc.) I think most of the time it's a stretch but the Endless Sacrifice is just completely uncanny. I still think it's probably a coincidence as it's a simple pattern based on some arpegeo picking in E minor on a lot of open strings. I just think anyone could figure out a pattern like that on open strings, not to say it's too basic because I think it's quite effective, I just don't think it's a particularly unique enough pattern for JP to bother ripping it off. I'm thinking it's more likely he was completely unconscious of the riff being nearly identical to MJ.

Ohhh I see the similarity! But still, you said it yourself, it's not like you can't come up with that riff on your own, actually I always thought the inspiration came down from Metallica and such. There are a number of those in DT, like Home bass intro and 46 & 2 by Tool, Never Enough/Stockholm Syndrome(this was the most annoying) and every other Muse-ism in Octavarium for example, with the exception that those were way more obvious than Endless Sacrifice.

It's the right way round, though - better to find the beauty in something mundane than convey a really interesting concept prosaically.

I think it's written in such a way that it's not tied down to JP's interpretation. What JP put in isn't necessarily what the listener would put out - he's deliberately made it ambiguous, and something you'll be able to relate to and find meaning in if you're not a music producer. I tend to think the idea that, "Oh, the lyrics are about whatever you think they're about" thing is often pseudy nonsense, but he's taken pains to describe not the activity but the state of mind it provokes. It's not about producing an album, he's omitted those bits, and written about the self-doubt, the fear of getting it wrong, the things that give you strength and support in those times, and the triumph of finding that perfect path - which are universal themes, that the listener will recognise and match to their own life in different ways. Producing an album was just the thread he tugged at.

Oh, you're right as usual, but I worded myself poorly. I tried to say that it's not a bummer that JP took a mundane concept as an inspiration, that's actually admirable and the way he takes a particular concept and make it general for everyone to feel identified is nothing short of remarkable, is one of the things I love about his lyrics. It's just the mundane way he explains it that kind of sucks , you actually made a way better job than he does! It still doesn't take anything away from my enjoyment of the song itself, great lyrics are great lyrics no matter what.

Thanks for the welcome!  Here is is the interview where JP talks about the musical concept.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPQ6egJDqQo

I am a bit of a literature buff so that's probably where the ides of march and Shakespear thing came from.  I just couldn't help notice the similarities.  But you are right, TBP probably was not intended to have anything to do with the Shakespear play.  But, it is possible that he may have read the play before and it subconsciously came out in his lyrics.  It happens to authors and poets all the time and they don't even realize it.  Then it takes others to discover it.  Then again, it's probably a stretch.

And yes, JP is a brilliant lyricist but he never does his lyrics justice when he tries to explain them.

One of the reasons I have come to like DT is the fanbase just goes nuts with the connections within albums, between albums and between songs both lyrically and musically.  I loved reading this thread so I just had to join in with my own idea.  Maybe I will post my idea on a new thread once I have fleshed it out a little more.  Anyway, it's good to be part of a group of like-minded people.

Oh I see, I actually saw that interview, but I never took the word of JP about the album by heart, but now that you mentioned it I looked again and yes, he did say it in a very confident, strong way, not like "there seems to be a musical story" but actually "there IS a musical story". Never paid attention to that little detail that changes everything.

As for the song itself, it could very well be that he borrowed or was influenced by what you said for metaphors to use as a way to deliver the message through, so to speak, I'm just saying that it's probably not what the song is about.

By the way, if you're into this song analysis stuff, I'd recommend you to look for Illumination Theory thread for a very good song analysis erwin rafael made of the song on the last pages of it.

[Rodni Demental]

Haha, I love JPs song descriptions, he certainly doesn't forcefeed the meaning into the song for you. 

JP on BMUBMD: "It was a song that was written at a point after we had written a few songs and we felt that the album needed a bit of a balance as far as like the.. uh.. you know having some.. uh, more metal.. like.. tracks."

JP on Lost Not Forgotten: "You know, the song turned out to be very technical, it's a very technical song, kind of metal...technical..um... has some of the most wild playing on the album".

[George Eliot]

By the way, if you're into this song analysis stuff, I'd recommend you to look for Illumination Theory thread for a very good song analysis erwin rafael made of the song on the last pages of it.

Thanks, I'll go take a look.

Haha, I love JPs song descriptions, he certainly doesn't forcefeed the meaning into the song for you. 

JP on BMUBMD: "It was a song that was written at a point after we had written a few songs and we felt that the album needed a bit of a balance as far as like the.. uh.. you know having some.. uh, more metal.. like.. tracks."

JP on Lost Not Forgotten: "You know, the song turned out to be very technical, it's a very technical song, kind of metal...technical..um... has some of the most wild playing on the album".

lol!!!

[Grizz]

Haha, I love JPs song descriptions, he certainly doesn't forcefeed the meaning into the song for you. 

JP on BMUBMD: "It was a song that was written at a point after we had written a few songs and we felt that the album needed a bit of a balance as far as like the.. uh.. you know having some.. uh, more metal.. like.. tracks."

JP on Lost Not Forgotten: "You know, the song turned out to be very technical, it's a very technical song, kind of metal...technical..um... has some of the most wild playing on the album".

For some reason I only hear adam02's voice when I read this.