DT's drum sound evolution

[Kotowboy]

They should try the whole recording cymbals separately - and not compressing them at all - approach.

Mangini is the kind of guy who could easily play the song twice - once without cymbals and once using only cymbals.

He'd just know exactly where everything went.

An album by Therapy? was recorded this way - and the cymbals are big and washy and have loads of decay..

[ReaPsTA]

An album by Therapy? was recorded this way - and the cymbals are big and washy and have loads of decay..

I'd be curious to hear this.

[mikeyd23]

They should try the whole recording cymbals separately - and not compressing them at all - approach.

Mangini is the kind of guy who could easily play the song twice - once without cymbals and once using only cymbals.

He'd just know exactly where everything went.

An album by Therapy? was recorded this way - and the cymbals are big and washy and have loads of decay..

I've honestly never heard of this approach to recording drums/cymbals before.  Does the drummer actually play the track all the way through without hitting cymbals and then do another take playing nothing but cymbals?!

[?]

Everyone hated the ADTOE drum sound when it came out.

Can't speak for others, but I didn't (and still don't) hate the drum sound on ADTOE, although it could've been better. I think the main problem on that album was that the drums were pretty low in the mix, which makes it hard to notice all the details and nuances of MM's playing.

[Sycsa]

Great post Sycsa!

By the way, nice post Sycsa!

Thanks!

By the way, I have a friend who is a high level professional drummer and sound engineer, with his own studio. He recorded, mixed and mastered quite a few records and is about to produce his own progressive metal/fusion album (the demos blew my mind). Goes without saying, he grew up on DT and is still a big fan. While he agrees with many of the points listed here, he still claims that the drums and cymbals of DT12 sound amazing, modern and the whole production sounds very high budget. We listened to the HD tracks in the studio and I was very impressed.

[rumborak]

I still find the reaction to DT12's drum sound to be surprising.

There are certainly technical issues.  The cymbals are too compressed.  The snare is a little too dry in a couple places (the big drum fill to open Surrender, Trust, and Passion is the worst offender - the toms boom so epicly and the snare's dryness really stands out).

But I liked what they were going for.  The drums slam so hard.  I like that grenade snare sound a lot.  Other bands do it better, but I like it in DT's music.  I like the lack of overtones because the other instruments have more room in the mix.  It sounds less natural, but the whole album has a very processed sound, which I don't mind at all.  It's generally very clean and very heavy, which is what I want out of a drum sound.

I mean, I too *do* get the sound approach they were going for. It's not just the drums that have this "clinical" aspect to them, it's the whole record.

The interesting thing is, the closest analogy I can think of is actually ... Hugh Syme album covers. They are very similar in their approach, in that each visual element is highly stylized, very clearly delineated, and sort of stands on its own in the overall picture with little interaction to the other pieces.
So, I can see how one might like it, I just find it artificial. I like hearing some rough edges, the fact that every snare hit is different, every crash hit brings out a different aspect of the cymbal. With DT12, about 30 seconds into the album, you've heard every drum sound there will be on the record.

[ReaPsTA]

I mean, I too *do* get the sound approach they were going for. It's not just the drums that have this "clinical" aspect to them, it's the whole record.

But... I love when DT puts on a clinic.

The interesting thing is, the closest analogy I can think of is actually ... Hugh Syme album covers. They are very similar in their approach, in that each visual element is highly stylized, very clearly delineated, and sort of stands on its own in the overall picture with little interaction to the other pieces.

This I can't agree with.  An album like that would be Black Clouds.  If you listen to the stems, often you think things like "this guitar is so rich, I don't know why you'd add a keyboard to this" or "this keyboard is so thickly orchestrated, how would you fit guitar into this?"  All the instruments on DT12 have a dark, heavy, shiny sound to them and are generally arranged in concert with each other pretty well.

So, I can see how one might like it, I just find it artificial. I like hearing some rough edges, the fact that every snare hit is different, every crash hit brings out a different aspect of the cymbal. With DT12, about 30 seconds into the album, you've heard every drum sound there will be on the record.

I can never figure out a coherent opinion on this.  I agree that MM's drums are a bit too machine-like, but that doesn't totally bother me.  I've tried to make peace with the fact that studio performances are just as much a product of technology as they are the actual band members.  It's an idealized version of what the band is, which I find cool in its own way.

[haceeb]

Being a drummer myself, one of the things that drew me to DT was their huge, emblematic drum sound. But what exactly is their signature drum sound and how did it come to be?


It's quite an uncommon feat to find your signature sound on the debut album (out of all the bands I listen to, only ELP managed to pull that off) and the infamously bad production on When Dream and Day Unite hinders that cause even more. MP said that some of his cymbals at the time were really cheap and, indeed, the china at the the beginning of Only a Matter of Time is by far the worst sounding cymbal I've ever heard on a studio recording.

Things drastically improved with Images & Words, it's still one of my favorite DT albums production- and otherwise. As for the drum sound, the snare and the kick were triggered, giving it a very unique, atypical sound. David Prater, the producer claimed that the rookie MP was unable to keep his hits constant and the drumming sounded like a mess, thus he had to trigger it. I have a hard time swallowing that explanation, but I don't mind it too much, the triggered drums enhance the album's unique atmosphere even if MP himself hates them. They replaced the triggered samples on the Greatest hit... release with sounds that resemble a real kit and are closer to MP's taste, but it flat-out doesn't work. The toms weren't triggered, but they have plenty of tone and ring compared to the deeper, more muffled tone which would come later on, thus I think we're still pretty far from the typical DT sound.

The drum sound on Awake is outstanding. Everything is clean, crisp and sharp. The kick has the perfect balance of attack and power and plenty of both (it rattles my chest like nothing else when I crank the volume up). It's still a pretty classic sounding kick and would change quite a lot later on. The snare, for me, is an acquired taste. It obviously sounds a lot more organic than on I&W, it's powerful and it cuts, but it's a bit dry and the decay at the end is completely and obviously eliminated, giving it a bit of an artificial flavor. Same can be said about the toms. Overall, the kick and the cymbals slay, the rest is so-so. A Change of Seasons sounds similar in character, everything is a bit weaker and thinner, but it sounds great nevertheless. The snare and the toms are somewhat warmer, with a more natural sounding tone.

In my view, Falling Into Infinity marks the point when Mike Portnoy found the his signature drum sound and, with a few alterations over the years (like dampening and fattening his snare and tom sound), stuck with it for the rest of his tenure with DT. The kick got a lot more attack, with that typical clicky sound that can be heard most prominently on Live Scenes, but also on OAILT, LTE 1&2, SFAM and SDOIT. This is the classic MP bass drum sound, which, albeit, changed a little in character, remained essentially the same on ToT, SC and BC&SL. MP's snare sound was the by far the most organic on FII, with plenty of ringing, rich overtones, lots of decay. I love it! Overall, my all-time favorite DT drum sound.

An interesting change occurred on Octavarium and Score. MP's kick drum sound was mostly stripped of that powerful, clicky attack sound and instead pulsated, so you could rather feel it than hear it. Perhaps MP wanted to experiment and thought that this classic approach complemented the sound of Octavarium more. I would agree. The kick drum came back with a vengeance though on Systematic Chaos, louder, more powerful and with more attack than ever before. This trend would continue on BC&SL.

The next big -and anticipated- change in DT's drum sound would come with the arrival of Mike Mangini. Unfortunately, his drum sound on A Dramatic Turn of Events was underwhelming. While the tooone was OK, the drums were low in the mix and thin sounding (by DT standards, of course). The overall character of the sound, while noticeably different, was still reminiscent of the classic MP-DT sound, which many anticipated would change once MM gets full reign.

Which it did, as it became apparent with the release of Dream Theater. Like a large chunk of the fan base, I was a bit disappointed with the new sound as well at first, but it grew on me a lot since. One thing it has got going for it is that it's completely unique and defines the mood of the album, much like with Images & Words. Come to think of it, if I had to describe the drum sound, it's a bit like recreating the I&W sound acoustically (which, in return, makes the whole kit, including the toms, sound electric in a few places). One thing is for certain, this was DT12 exclusive, unique drum sound. It will indubitably change and I can't wait to experience the next step in its evolution.

Long story, short, he don't like drum sound of Mike Mangini.
I prefer Mangini's sound and that's the reason I prefer "A Dramatic Turn of Events", "DT12".

[rumborak]

You prefer DT12's drum sound to say FII's drum sound?

[BlobVanDam]

It's funny, because ADTOE and DT12 both have poor drum sounds on the complete opposite ends of the spectrum.
ADTOE's drums are so dry that they don't cut through and you can't hear the nuances. DT12's drums are so over-processed that you still can't hear nuances.

The drums don't sound too bad on the heavier tracks on the HDTracks version, but on the softer songs, that kind of drum sound kills the mood for me. Hopefully it will be 3rd time lucky for MM!

[nikatapi]

It's funny, because ADTOE and DT12 both have poor drum sounds on the complete opposite ends of the spectrum.
ADTOE's drums are so dry that they don't cut through and you can't hear the nuances. DT12's drums are so over-processed that you still can't hear nuances.

The drums don't sound too bad on the heavier tracks on the HDTracks version, but on the softer songs, that kind of drum sound kills the mood for me. Hopefully it will be 3rd time lucky for MM!

Exactly, i think they need to find a balance between power and clarity, so the drums do cut through, but don't lose their dynamic side. I will insist on the cymbals though, they don't sound that good on both ADTOE and DT, though DT was an improvement.

[Kotowboy]

They should try the whole recording cymbals separately - and not compressing them at all - approach.

Mangini is the kind of guy who could easily play the song twice - once without cymbals and once using only cymbals.

He'd just know exactly where everything went.

An album by Therapy? was recorded this way - and the cymbals are big and washy and have loads of decay..

I've honestly never heard of this approach to recording drums/cymbals before.  Does the drummer actually play the track all the way through without hitting cymbals and then do another take playing nothing but cymbals?!

Yes. The Therapy? album " Crooked Timber " was recorded this way.
https://open.spotify.com/track/0auvVUuldUdbCh4KzKGAMq

[mikeyd23]

Yes. The Therapy? album " Crooked Timber " was recorded this way.
https://open.spotify.com/track/0auvVUuldUdbCh4KzKGAMq

Hmm, that pretty interesting... Thanks for the link, I'm listening now....

Honestly, the cymbals sound pretty good on this album, they have good clarity and cut through, but if I didn't know they were recorded in a different manner, I would never have been able to tell a noticeable difference. To me it sounds like a kit with good overhead and room micing, that the engineering didn't dampen with too much compression/gating allowing the cymbals to have a nice, long, full decay. 

Judging by that, I wouldn't think it would be worth it, to basically completely change how a drummer plays when recording in order to get that sound.  If the sound was like magical and blew me away, then yeah maybe it would be worth it.  But it was just good, not great, IMO and could be achieved in other ways that would still allow the drummer to record the full patterns in one take as they would be accustomed to.

[kirksnosehair]

IMHO, the best drum sound (and best anything sound) in DT's discography is on FII.

      I only like about 1/2 of the songs on FII, but the drums definitely sound great on that album, I think I agree it's the best drum sound they've ever had.

[seasonsinthesky]

They should try the whole recording cymbals separately - and not compressing them at all - approach.

Mangini is the kind of guy who could easily play the song twice - once without cymbals and once using only cymbals.

He'd just know exactly where everything went.

An album by Therapy? was recorded this way - and the cymbals are big and washy and have loads of decay..

I've honestly never heard of this approach to recording drums/cymbals before.  Does the drummer actually play the track all the way through without hitting cymbals and then do another take playing nothing but cymbals?!

Yes. The Therapy? album " Crooked Timber " was recorded this way.
https://open.spotify.com/track/0auvVUuldUdbCh4KzKGAMq

this is the AC/DC method. that's part of their drum sound.

honestly, my only problem with the DT12 drum sound is the obvious snare trigger (not obvious in the same way as I&W). if they'd gone with a more natural snare sound i'd have no issue at all.

with that said, FII and BC&SL are clear high points to strive toward, imo.

[jakepriest]

BC&SL? That drum sound has to be the worst MP has ever had. The toms in particular sound like crap.

[BlobVanDam]

I agree BCASL was probably the worst MP drum sound (excluding WDADU of course), although the toms didn't sound too bad. BCASL's sound is the most comparable to DT12's sound, although it's still better imo.
Not what I'd consider a high point for drum sound. I'd give that to FII/SDOIT.

[tweeg]

Drum sound itself: FII

Drum sound working with the mix: I&W

Starting with SDOIT the drums get overly loud and compressed for my taste.

[Grizz]

BC&SL? That drum sound has to be the worst MP has ever had. The toms in particular sound like crap.

I like the bubinga toms on that album, the b/b not so much.
The snare... it sounds like Mike was trying to get a high sound like he had with the maple, which you can't really squeeze out of bubinga. It's a very deep sounding wood.

[rumborak]

Starting with SDOIT the drums get overly loud and compressed for my taste.

Yeah, this actually. In some of these discussions it comes across as if bad drum sound started with MM, but reality is that DT had slowly been inching towards the current sound, starting with SDOIT (or around there).

[mikeyd23]

BC&SL? That drum sound has to be the worst MP has ever had. The toms in particular sound like crap.

Agreed, I was actually listening to BC&SL over the weekend for the first time in a while, and my first thought was how unimpressive the drum sound was.  Its interesting how people get on DT12's drum sound here but BC&SL's drums were pretty poor IMO as well.  Everything sounds very close miced with no room sound at all and the toms don't have a ton of body or depth to them.  Definitely one of my least favorite MP drum sounds. 

Yeah, this actually. In some of these discussions it comes across as if bad drum sound started with MM, but reality is that DT had slowly been inching towards the current sound, starting with SDOIT (or around there).

I'd agree the drum sound in DT has been certainly inconsistent in recent output, but I really like the drum sound on SDOIT, so I'd say the problems really begin after that record.

[Mindflux]

I've never paid much attention to FII. I generally prefer DT from SFAM onward (though ADTOE and DT12 are meh for me).

Going back and listening, the drum sound is great.

[SystematicThought]

I put in DT12 Surround Sound version this weekend and blasted it and MM's drums sound amazing on surround sound--they hit you in the gut and really have a punch to them. The last drum solo in Enigma Machine sounds amazing too. It's just absolutely crazy and when he does the octobans at the end, they go across the back channels and you feel like you're in his shoes playing along