What are your thoughts on how the orchestra/choir were used at the Boston show?

[Setlist Scotty]

Hey all

I was just listening to a boot from the Boston show this year and from my viewpoint, it seemed as if the orchestra and choir were underutilized for the show, considering that they were only brought out for the last song of the second set (IT) and the encore of SFaM songs. I'm curious to see if I'm the only one to feel that way or if others think the same thing.

To me, it seems like a somewhat wasted opportunity. I mean, I understand that the band didn't include them for the Awake tribute, at least for SDVest (altho I think at least LSOaD and Scarred could've been interesting with the orchestra and choir), but couldn't they have restructured the setlist so that they could've introduced the orchestra and choir earlier in the second set (or maybe just brought them out at the beginning)? I think a setlist like this would've worked:

False Awakening Suite
The Enemy Inside
The Shattered Fortress
The Looking Glass
Enigma Machine
The Mirror
Lie
Lifting Shadows Off a Dream
Scarred
Space Dye Vest
----(orchestra & choir come in)----
On the Backs of Angels
Along for the Ride
Trial of Tears
Breaking All Illusions
Illumination Theory
----(encore)----
Overture 1928
Strange Deja Vu
The Dance of Eternity
Finally Free

With these adjustments, the first and second sets would remain almost exactly the same timewise, and I think all those songs (to varying degrees) could benefit from the orchestra and/or choir (never mind the fact that "regular" live versions of OtBoA/BAI are on L@LP, and ToT is on both OiaL and L@B). Thoughts?

[Madman Shepherd]

On one hand, more orchestra would have obviously been cool, but on the other hand, since this was being captured for a DVD/CD, it will be cool to have the Awake songs among others in their purest form. 

For the songs that will have been repeated, namely the ADTOE songs, it would have been nice to have an orchestra with those two but other than that, I am happy with it. 

[Grizz]

I agree Scotty. I did like how the choir was used in the context of the songs themselves though.

I only wish I could've heard them. The sound was muddy and tinny enough to clip in my cochlea.

[King Postwhore]

I felt I heard the choir louder than the strings being here.  Looking forward to it mixed in 5.1.

[?]

Option 4, because I wasn't there and haven't seen a single video. The orchestra would've been a perfect addition for the last 3 Awake songs, but on the other hand, as Madman Shepherd said, now we get to hear them in their purest form.

[KevShmev]

I chose option 3.  It seems like bands using an orchestra is such a cliche now, and incorporating them into songs that normally do not have them is kind of annoying, once the novelty wears off.  I thought the thing they did on the last tour was cool, with having the strings during the acoustic section of the show, but anything more would have been unnecessary. I am glad it was kept to somewhat of a minimum at the Boston show.

[RaiseTheKnife]

For me, it was a matter of expectation.  I guess from the way the band presented the event, I just assumed that the orchestra and choir were going to be a part of the entire show.   Especially since we saw the youtube video of the orchestra playing False Awakening Suite- surely I expected this would be included as a live opening.

Well, no.  No sign of Berklee Ensemble for the first few songs so I figured they would join in the second set.   Still cool.  We saw the orchestra arrive and prepare during the intermission, but when the band kicked in, nobody was sure if the orchestra was playing too.  Couldn't see them and  JP's guitar was too damn loud.   I was perplexed and confused and kept wondering when are we gonna get our special treat?   Frank Solomon kept popping down the aisle to check on the orchestra and I (erroneously) wondered if something was amiss. So I wasn't able to comfortably take in the show with all these curiosities crowding my mind.

Finally, James welcomed the Berklee ensemble for IT.  The choir was larger than I expected and it was so cool to see them on stage.  But the orchestra was hidden below in the pit.   People shifted and stood on their tippy toes to try a get a glimpse - I was in 4th row - and still an impossible feat.  Front row attendees must have loved it, because it was all for them.   Some folks walked down the side aisle to snap a few pics.   If the entire audience sat during the performance we'd all have been able to see the orchestra -- heck I thought about trying to pass the word around -- but nah - wasn't gonna happen.

With JP's guitar roaring, I couldn't hear a thing.  I could hear the choir, but it was not dramatically in the mix.   Was awesome watching them though.

That aside, I think the ensemble was on stage for a considerable enough time with the band for those five songs.  A three hour accompaniment might have been unreasonable and perhaps disastrous.   In retrospect, I think the arrangement as is made sense. 

I wish (1) we had some more info ahead of time to manage expectations and (2) they abandoned opera house tradition and placed/squeezed the orchestra in a visible area.  Somewhere.

Lastly, I have no desire to listen to any fan recorded tracks or boots for this show.  I look forward to how the band presents the show as they intended.

[wolfking]

When I see the DVD I'll let you know.

[aprilethereal]

When I see the DVD I'll let you know.

[ZKX-2099]

Did they end Finally Free with the solo section like on the other DVD?

[mikeyd23]

I went with the last option as well, since I wasn't there and haven't watched any boots from the show.  It might be sufficient when viewing the end result (the DVD) or it might leave me wanting more.

On one hand, more orchestra would have obviously been cool, but on the other hand, since this was being captured for a DVD/CD, it will be cool to have the Awake songs among others in their purest form. 

I was thinking of this too, but if the orchestra DID play the whole show with the band or even just the second set, a great option to include in the DVD/BR would be different audio options, similar to what Metallica did with S&M.  You can select a "Band Only" mix and I think there's even an "Orchestra Only" option as well, if I'm remembering correctly.  Or of course the regular mix which includes both.  That way the option is there and can be adjusted to fit the particular listeners preference.

[tiagodon]

Have to wait for the DVD...

[hefdaddy42]

Wasn't there.  Haven't heard it.  No opinion.

[Eren]

Setlist restructure wasn't considered at all. It's also very demanding for the band so they wanted to keep it as it is. The only question was when would the orchestra enter and how much music we would accompany the band.

50 minutes is still a very good amount of time the orchestra spent, the arrangements were quite complicated for all of us, I did not choose to compromise how I wanted it to be in order to make it easier as well. So we had to practice and rehearse a lot and for that 50 minutes to be one run-through with band and showtime, I think it was a balanced time spent on the stage with the band in the time we had.

But that doesn't mean I'd wish for more. Wish we could have played the whole or at least half of the show, but that would mean much more risk, much more rehearsal and practice time we wouldn't be able to commit (during heavy college work for everyone), and the quality wouldn't be enough for a perfect DT show, in the given timeframe. A flawless and great experience for band, orchestra, choir and the audience was maintained all the time by having 5 pieces only.

Live sound was quite challenging for the engineers, because we played in the pit, where all the microphones were picking up the roaring band sound and it was very hard to keep it without feedback. In a perfect world the stage would be much larger (like radio city hall) and we would play behind the band so they could turn up the orchestra at least 2x, but in the venue's case that would have been made everybody deaf from the high pitching feedback sound. I'm only hoping that the DVD will sound awesome and all will hear the true addition of choir and orchestra.

The most important thing I believe was maintained; the band enjoyed it, we enjoyed it, the energy overall was awesome, so we could deliver as best as possible in the given conditions of time, venue and people.

That's few thoughts I have from the conductor's podium. 

[KevShmev]

Cool post, and thanks for giving us your perspective, Eren.

[TAC]

Cool post, and thanks for giving us your perspective, Eren.

Yeah, really Eren. Thanks for the input.

  It seems like bands using an orchestra is such a cliche now, and incorporating them into songs that normally do not have them is kind of annoying, once the novelty wears off. 

This is how I feel too. I'm glad Boston had a DVD shoot and something unique about the show, but that's about all. Having an orchestra at a rock concert is just distracting if you ask me. It's cool with the Berklee connection and all, but...

That said, when they announced it I thought of how glorious the Scarred and Space Dye Vest outros would sound with an orchestra, but we didn't even get that.

[Grizz]

Did they end Finally Free with the solo section like on the other DVD?

I think that MP retroactively called that Overture 2000.

If the entire audience sat during the performance we'd all have been able to see the orchestra

Perhaps in your section, but nobody above the second balcony row could see them.

Live sound was quite challenging for the engineers, because we played in the pit, where all the microphones were picking up the roaring band sound and it was very hard to keep it without feedback.

With all due respect to the live sound engineers, the mix on this tour isn't very good. At all.

[Madman Shepherd]

Thanks for your perspectives Eren.  I didn't know you posted here!

[seasonsinthesky]

Did they end Finally Free with the solo section like on the other DVD?

no, it was a different arrangement that made much more sense with the real ending. similar to the Making of SFAM end but with everyone resolving instead of weird stoppage (it was, after all, planned to be a fadeout – they had no reason to record a 'proper' ending!).

[Buddyhunter1]

I could barely tell they were there, honestly.
The main problem was that they were playing stuff that would normally be played by Rudess, except that Rudess was ALSO playing those parts, much louder than they were. The intro to Illumination Theory is a good example of that. If they had just let the orchestra handle the string melody and have Rudess do something different, it would have worked a lot better.

[rumborak]

Yeah, that kinda bugged me too.

Regarding the feedback problem, I wish they had dialed back the volume overall a bit anyway, as it was ear-splittingly loud, which then might have allowed them to bring up the orchestra more.

[Grizz]

Still not as loud as the 2003 summer tour (in Oakdale at least) according to my father.

[RaiseTheKnife]

BuddyHunter, mix issues aside, would you agree that the choir arrangement (espeically in the opening of IT) was jaw dropping awesome?

I maintain that the accoustic design of the venue (an authentic opera house) made it so that the sound projected much louder than other shows on this tour.  I would have been fine if the band dialed way back on their levels to allow more room for the orchestra.  I could have taken out my earplugs and enjoyed it au naturale.  I don't think anyone would have complained that it was too quiet for a rock show.  I dunno.

Still, it was an enourmously special event to witness -- and props to all those who made it possible.

[Buddyhunter1]

BuddyHunter, mix issues aside, would you agree that the choir arrangement (espeically in the opening of IT) was jaw dropping awesome?

I guess? Honestly, the choir seemed a lot more pointless than the orchestra to me, since their only job was to go "oooooooooooohhhh" along with the melody. I think the only time they really stood out was the final chorus of Finally Free, probably because they did something similar (but less powerful) on the studio version.

Then again, the show was so loud I'd probably need to hear the recordings to completely decide if the potential was truly realized or wasted.

[KevShmev]

Regarding the sound this tour, I thought it was odd how different the Chicago and KC shows were (I saw them both, in the span of 5 days).  The Chicago show was absolutely perfect volume and you could hear everything well; the KC show was ear-splitting loud to the point of annoyance.  Of the 7 DT shows I have now seen, the Chicago show was probably my 2nd or 3rd favorite, while the KC one was near the bottom (which says it all about the sound, since it was the exact same show).

[Grizz]

BuddyHunter, mix issues aside, would you agree that the choir arrangement (espeically in the opening of IT) was jaw dropping awesome?

I guess? Honestly, the choir seemed a lot more pointless than the orchestra to me, since their only job was to go "oooooooooooohhhh" along with the melody. I think the only time they really stood out was the final chorus of Finally Free, probably because they did something similar (but less powerful) on the studio version.

Then again, the show was so loud I'd probably need to hear the recordings to completely decide if the potential was truly realized or wasted.

On the recordings I can only hear the audience singing.
EDIT: I was thinking of One Last Time.

[mikeyd23]

Yeah regarding the sound/mix on the tour.  When I saw them in Pittsburgh the mix was brilliant. Everything was heard when it needed to be heard; the drums sounded big and full, I could hear JMX, JP and JR were balanced fairly well and JLB sat right on top of everything nicely.  The volume was loud like a rock show should be but not too loud that it was uncomfortable. 

I think it really depends on the venue and where you end up sitting, that can make such a huge difference.  So to make a blanket statement that the sound/mix on the entire tour hasn't been good is a tad overreacting and frankly must likely inaccurate.

[Grizz]

I was basing that on the similar sound issues I experienced in Boston and New York.

[mikeyd23]

Ah gotcha, sorry you had bad experiences! Pittsburgh was really nice sounding for sure.  Like I said, I think the different venues and where people happen to be positioned in them have a lot to do with the perception of the sound.

[RaiseTheKnife]

I find it ironic that none of the band could hear the orchestra or choir that night because they didn't include them in their inner monitor mix.  JLB said that it was easier to not have to adjust to the new mix.  Makes sense that the band wanted to perform in their most natural and comfortable state, but like I said, it's ironic that the audience and the band will have to wait for the DVD to hear what actually went down that night.

[Sir Walrus Cauliflower]

Regarding the sound this tour, I thought it was odd how different the Chicago and KC shows were (I saw them both, in the span of 5 days).  The Chicago show was absolutely perfect volume and you could hear everything well; the KC show was ear-splitting loud to the point of annoyance.  Of the 7 DT shows I have now seen, the Chicago show was probably my 2nd or 3rd favorite, while the KC one was near the bottom (which says it all about the sound, since it was the exact same show).

That's interesting, the KC show was my favorite of all 1 DT shows I've been to.   

It did seem loud to me, I couldn't even hear myself order when I stopped by Chubby's after the show, and I couldn't distinguish some of JLB's mid range vocals very well.

[rumborak]

I find it ironic that none of the band could hear the orchestra or choir that night because they didn't include them in their inner monitor mix.  JLB said that it was easier to not have to adjust to the new mix.  Makes sense that the band wanted to perform in their most natural and comfortable state, but like I said, it's ironic that the audience and the band will have to wait for the DVD to hear what actually went down that night.

I guess that explains why Jordan played over the orchestra, since they actually didn't hear any of it.