Images and Words

[TheGreatPretender]

I'm not talking about opinions or preferences.  I'm talking about facts.  And objectively, by measurable facts, it most definitely should be put on a pedestal above all their other work.  It is the sine qua non of their career.

Whether or not you think it's their best album is a completely different story.

Neither am I. But a band's importance or an album's importance isn't defined by radio play or MTV play. Maybe at one point it was, but SFAM was a landmark album in that it resurrected the band, and brought a new life and new, happier era to them.
ADTOE was a landmark album in that it was the first time they were nominated for a Grammy, not to mention once again a new beginning for them with a new drummer. ADTOE garnered a lot of attention, the likes of which DT hasn't had for a while.
And while a Grammy nomination isn't the most important thing in the world, neither is MTV play, especially these days, so success and importance are measured with a lot more than commercial statistics.

[hefdaddy42]

But a band's importance or an album's importance isn't defined by radio play or MTV play. Maybe at one point it was

Yes, llike when I&W came out.

Again, it is the sine qua non of their careers.

The Grammy nominations are great, but if they hadn't gotten them, they wouldn't have been any less successful or popular.  Their careers wouldn't have been any different or lesser without them.  So those aren't landmarks like the success of I&W.  In fact, you seem to be using a different definition of landmark.

Yes, SFAM's success pumped new life into the band, and it's failure would have most likely doomed them.  But they wouldn't have been in that position without the phenomenal (and to date unmatched) success of I&W.

In the DT discography, there is I&W, and then there is everything else.  Objectively speaking.

[TheGreatPretender]

In fact, you seem to be using a different definition of landmark.

Well, this is the definition I'm using: an event, discovery, or change marking an important stage or turning point in something.

I'd say SFAM was a major turning point for them, as was ADTOE.

[KevShmev]

Okay, but using the actual known definition, not your own personal made-up one, hef is pretty much right.

[TheGreatPretender]

Okay, but using the actual known definition, not your own personal made-up one, hef is pretty much right.

It's not my own definition, it's actually a commonly accepted one, so please don't patronize me.

[hefdaddy42]

I'd say SFAM was a major turning point for them, as was ADTOE.

I don't see how ADTOE was a turning point. 

SFAM may have been a turning point.

I&W was a starting point, and without it's success, there wouldn't have been any other points.

The cheese stands alone.  Coincidence?  I think not.

[TheGreatPretender]

I&W was a starting point, and without it's success, there wouldn't have been any other points.

The cheese stands alone.  Coincidence?  I think not.

Well, if your definition of landmark is a successful starting point, then any band could only have one possible landmark. I mean, after a band can only establish itself only once. Once everyone knows who they are, it's not like they can have a starting point again.

Unless you count it when they fade from relevance, and then they do something to make themselves relevant yet again, in which case, SFAM totally did that for them.

As for ADTOE, I think it was a major turning point. I mean, the man who was for all intents and purposes the ring leader of the band had quit, and it was their first album without him. And not only was it a successful one, but with it came success and attention that, like I said, they'd been lacking for some time. Sounds like a major turning point, and another new beginning for them.

[King Postwhore]

Hef is right.

Look at 2112 for Rush.  That was their breakthrough album yet most would pick Hemispheres through Moving Pictures as their musical peak.  Same can be said for I&W as the album that put DT on the map but SFAM & 6DOIT at their best.

[TheGreatPretender]

Here are a couple of definitions of (figurative) landmark from dictionary.com

a significant or historic event, juncture, achievement, etc.

an important or unique decision, event, fact, discovery, etc.


If you're gonna tell me that I&W was DT's only important album, you're off your rocker. You know, even if you consider an importance of an album to be of mass success and cultural relevance, then I&W wasn't even a footnote in that manner. Yes, PMU was the song that made them famous... For all of 5 minutes. After that, the mainstream audience all but forgot who Dream Theater were, and like I said, it's a damn shame, but the sad truth is, you're not going to find anyone outside of hardcore Prog fans, who'll consider Images and Words an important album. And even prog fans will sooner cite Pink Floyd, Yes, Genesis, Rush, etc. and DT often gets forgotten in those circles. So as far as lasting cultural relevance, outside of prog fans, I&W is a small blip. Sad to say.


By the definitions above, at the very least, you can't deny that Scenes From A Memory was alandmark album in DT's career. In fact, if Images and Words ended up being a failure, they probably would've pressed on and continued trying to achieve success.
But MP said it time and again that if SFAM had failed, then DT probably wouldn't exist today.


EDIT: In fact, if you actually do mean that Images and Words is the album that gave DT its fame and established it as an important act, then the term you're thinking of is "Breakthrough" not "Landmark".

[hefdaddy42]

No, "landmark" is still an acceptable term.

And I have acknowledged the importance of SFAM.  It is second only to I&W in importance.

But I disagree with the assessment of ADTOE.  The significant event during that point in time was not the album itself, but rather with the promotion of the album and the success of the tour, i.e. the band showed that it could maintain its success (key word: maintain) in the absence of MP, who formerly did all of that stuff. 

But I'm through with this, I've said all I can.  Think what you want.

[TheGreatPretender]

No, "landmark" is still an acceptable term.

And I have acknowledged the importance of SFAM.  It is second only to I&W in importance.

I never said SFAM was more important than I&W, but it was still a major landmark in their career, so I&W was not their only landmark, that's all I'm saying.

[Sycsa]

It's kinda sad that people can't see past their Kenny G preconceptions, and enjoy it for what it is. 

It's not my own definition, it's actually a commonly accepted one, so please don't patronize me.

What an amazing display of double standards only within a few posts.

I have no idea who Kenny G is (although I can vaguely recall him having sax with Mr. Garrison like 15 years ago), but I always loved me some good sax in my prog: Van Der Graaf Generator, Supertramp, Colosseum, Jethro Tull, Gentle Giant (my all-time favorite band at one point). Not enjoying the sax in Another Day has nothing to do with preconceptions, it would be silly to assume that people who are into prog would discriminate against certain instruments. I simply don't think it fits the overall heavier, metallic sound of I&W (could have worked better on FII or SFAM) and the tone, within that context has that overall 80's romantic sax feel, which I can only describe as cheesy, not to mention the melodies and the song itself is cheesy to begin with. 

My impression is that DT was never a stranger to cheese, most of their ballads suffer from it to a certain degree. Some songs that I considered to be cheesy at first grew on me as time went by (Hollow Years, TSCO), some even became favorites (Innocence Faded) while others are still on the skip-most-of-the-time list (Another Day, Take Away My Pain, Beneath the Surface).

[TheGreatPretender]

I simply don't think it fits the overall heavier, metallic sound of I&W (could have worked better on FII or SFAM) and the tone, within that context has that overall 80's romantic sax feel, which I can only describe as cheesy, not to mention the melodies and the song itself is cheesy to begin with.

Are you serious? Even with PMU on the album, I would say it's one of their softest albums.

My impression is that DT was never a stranger to cheese, most of their ballads suffer from it to a certain degree. Some songs that I considered to be cheesy at first grew on me as time went by (Hollow Years, TSCO), some even became favorites (Innocence Faded) while others are still on the skip-most-of-the-time list (Another Day, Take Away My Pain, Beneath the Surface).

Whether it's cheesy or not, I think is up to interpretation. I personally never found any of their ballads cheesy. But even if you do find them cheesy, it's unfortunate that somehow it hinders your enjoyment of those songs.
Even songs that I do find cheesy, I can enjoy in a genuine, non-ironic way, as long as the music is good and the melodies are pleasant.

[Sycsa]

I wasn't comparing the relative heaviness of all DT albums, you're getting off track. I&W has a certain type of sound in which they couldn't incorporate the sax successfully IMO.

You shouldn't concern yourself with how I listen to music and what makes me enjoy it, but you're off again, I just said that many "cheesy" songs grew a lot on me. There are a lot of variables which determine the enjoyment of a given song and the cheesiness factor is just one of them. Duh.

[King Postwhore]

Dear god TGP.  Your middle name must be semantics.

[TheGreatPretender]

I wasn't comparing the relative heaviness of all DT albums, you're getting off track. I&W has a certain type of sound in which they couldn't incorporate the sax successfully IMO.

If we were talking about Pull Me Under, sure. But why look at the whole album, instead of looking at Another Day in its own right. It's not a heavy song at all. It's the softest song on the album, so I don't see why some alto sax wouldn't work on it. Heck, I even think LTL lends itself to sax in some sections, maybe not an alto sax, but it definitely has a jazzy vibe during some of the instrumental sections.

You shouldn't concern yourself with how I listen to music and what makes me enjoy it, but you're off again, I just said that many "cheesy" songs grew a lot on me. There are a lot of variables which determine the enjoyment of a given song and the cheesiness factor is just one of them. Duh.

And yet, you don't dig Another Day all that much?

Dear god TGP.  Your middle name must be semantics.

If I was a Batman villain, they'd call me, "Pedantic Semantic". 

[King Postwhore]

 

Perfect!

[Öxölklöfför]

Take the time was the first song I heard, and it had a huge impact on my life at the time, both musically and lyrically. I still return to it now and then, the lyrics serves as inspiration in tougher times (i.e. in moments when "I think it's time for a chayaaange!"  ) and I can't ever get tired of the music. I was 15 when I heard it for the first time, 33 now, so it's been with me for more a long time...

[TAC]

Dear god TGP.  Your middle name must be semantics.

[GPedrosa]

Pure awesomeness. Every second. Is a beautyful trip. Pull me Under called my attention to Moore's genius. When the song ended so suddenly I was like "WTF?". But when I understood, the song got even better. Another Day brings me a lot of FEELS, mainly during the sax parts and THAT SOLO is one of my favorite solos ever. Take the time is pure power. Surrounded is amazing with a more marked Rush influence. Metropolis instrumental could be called "this is how we prog, b*tch!". Under a Glass Moon is also purely amazing. The intro, the solo and when James begins "Tell me, remind me..." it sends shivers down my spine. Wait for sleep is another demonstration of how Kevin was the best composer that ever was on DT. And Learning to Live is the song that de permanently made me rethink all the songs I listened in my life. When I finished listening to this album, I was another man.a

[kirksnosehair]

I wasn't comparing the relative heaviness of all DT albums, you're getting off track. I&W has a certain type of sound in which they couldn't incorporate the sax successfully IMO.

If we were talking about Pull Me Under, sure. But why look at the whole album, instead of looking at Another Day in its own right. It's not a heavy song at all. It's the softest song on the album, so I don't see why some alto sax wouldn't work on it. Heck, I even think LTL lends itself to sax in some sections, maybe not an alto sax, but it definitely has a jazzy vibe during some of the instrumental sections.

You shouldn't concern yourself with how I listen to music and what makes me enjoy it, but you're off again, I just said that many "cheesy" songs grew a lot on me. There are a lot of variables which determine the enjoyment of a given song and the cheesiness factor is just one of them. Duh.

And yet, you don't dig Another Day all that much?

Dear god TGP.  Your middle name must be semantics.

If I was a Batman villain, they'd call me, "Pedantic Semantic". 

It's a soprano sax solo on Another Day, not an alto sax.   Just sayin' 

[emtee]

Seems to be a pretty common theme that I&W "changed" many of us. It's up there with maybe 5 other life changing albums.

[ZirconBlue]

It's a soprano sax solo on Another Day, not an alto sax.   Just sayin' 

I wish it were an alto.  I've never liked the sound of the soprano saxophone.

[TheGreatPretender]

It's a soprano sax solo on Another Day, not an alto sax.   Just sayin' 

Are you saying that I failed as a semantic? 

[Sacul]

Seems to be a pretty common theme that I&W "changed" many of us. It's up there with maybe 5 other life changing albums.

I see that all the time on this forum. When people name it as one of the albums that made them change their vision of music, I always wonder what the other albums are.