JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary

[theseoafs]

rob, I think you're overstating my case here.  I never said anything like this:

the idea that the whole room would see it as this chalice of shit is relatively unfounded

That's not my position and you should re-read my posts if you think that's what I've said.  DT aren't going to be booed off the stage if they play You Not Me.  Here's what I've said:

1) Nobody seems especially fond of You Not Me in the same way that people are fond of other "deep cuts" from DT albums.
2) It's often cited as being a particularly bad song in DT's catalog.  You say "only 30% of DTF'ers think it's the worst DT song" like that's totally inconsequential -- actually, that's huge, especially considering a good portion of the comments in that thread are "voted no, but only because Prophets of War exists" and so on and so forth.
3) Generally speaking, it's not a song casual fans know about or are into. 

So we've got a song that isn't from the album currently being supported, that casual fans probably don't know about, that is often cited as a particularly bad symptom of a very controversial time in DT's history, that the average hardcore fan either dislikes or doesn't care much about, and that no one is really clamoring for.  What I'm saying is that there's no reason to play it.  Pretty much any other song in DT's catalog would be a more sensible use of those 5 minutes.  JP undoubtedly knows that and isn't going to pull it out.

[TheGreatPretender]

A good reason to play it would be for novelty's sake. Since it's a song that's so rarely played, and like I said, if they were to give a little attention to FII's anniversary, then I don't see why they wouldn't pull out this one song that's been totally buried in their discography.

I mean, let's say they did do a few songs from FII as means of anniversary? What are they gonna play? New Millennium and Trial of Tears? We already have a live version of those songs on LAB, along with Hollow Years (which is also on OIALT), and Trial is being played again this year and will be on the upcoming live release. Lines in the Sand is on Chaos in Motion. I guess they could play Burning My Soul, Hell's Kitchen, TAMP and Anna Lee. But aside from Hell's Kitchen, it's not like either one of those is a "fan favorite" either.

[theseoafs]

Well, I don't think they're going to do anything too significant for FII's anniversary, at least not like this tour.  I foresee a switch back to the standard format.  If they were to do that, my bet would be on Hell's Kitchen/Lines in the Sand, though Lines in the Sand has already been captured on a live release.  TAMP and Anna Lee are possibilities too (though I hope not TAMP because I don't care for it).  Hollow Years has also (to my knowledge) not been performed in quite a while, though it was documented on LAB.  Keep in mind that DT has not been overly concerned with redundancy from tour to tour (hey, WIMH/TTSTA).

But I also don't think novelty is a good reason to perform the song.  I think it's an extremely questionable choice for a live tune, and novelty doesn't really change that.  If novelty is how we're going to decide DT's setlists, then they should perform Maiden's Quest for Fire five times in a row.

[TheGreatPretender]

Well, it's a 4 minute song, so it wouldn't kill you.

[theseoafs]

Again.  Not saying it would kill anyone.  Saying it's a bad choice for a live song, and one that will therefore not get played.

[TheGreatPretender]

Because in YOUR opinion it's a bad choice for a live song? I'm not saying it's gonna get played for sure, but there are no guarantees one way or the other, so don't sound so sure.

[robwebster]

rob, I think you're overstating my case here.  I never said anything like this:

the idea that the whole room would see it as this chalice of shit is relatively unfounded

That's not my position and you should re-read my posts if you think that's what I've said.  DT aren't going to be booed off the stage if they play You Not Me.  Here's what I've said:

Apologies! I actually had KevShmev's comment in my head when I wrote that particular line -

"Actually, they'd be trolling themselves, since half of the crowd would running for the men's room or the beer stand, and the other half would be sitting there with bewildered looks on their faces, wondering why the band is playing such a song at a live show.  "

I was completely aware it wasn't your post, but I sort of had it in my head that I was kind of responding to the room. That's my mistake, and I was wrong to cram a whole bunch of opinions into the same box! I do think you're overstating the case, I think there's this fan myopia, that all that's here is all there is, and if anyone was a true fan they'd be here, which is absolutely not the case. If it were, DT would be pulling sub-Adrenaline Mob size crowds, but still. That was some rubbish netiquette from me.

2) It's often cited as being a particularly bad song in DT's catalog.  You say "only 30% of DTF'ers think it's the worst DT song" like that's totally inconsequential -- actually, that's huge, especially considering a good portion of the comments in that thread are "voted no, but only because Prophets of War exists" and so on and so forth.

I did concede that 30% was "still a pretty decent percentage," but the point stands that we're in one of the least YNM-charitable corners of the internet and we're racking up less than one in three "Worst... song... EVERS!" I also agreed that it's unlikely to be a particularly good use of setlist - and "ever less likely in a fixed setlist!" Terrible grammar on my part, but I've done quite a lot of agreeing with you, on balance! I was just addressing the strapline really - "Delusional if you think it's well-liked." And while I still do contest that, I probably didn't quote the best post nor person.

[Jaffa]

I did concede that 30% was "still a pretty decent percentage," but the point stands that we're in one of the least YNM-charitable corners of the internet and we're racking up less than one in three "Worst... song... EVERS!"

Eh.  To be honest, I think you're kind of misrepresenting the results of that poll.  According to the results of that thread, 25% of DTFers think You Not Me is DT's worst song.  That doesn't mean that the other 75% all think YNM is amazing, it just means that the other 75% have other songs they like less.  In that context, I think 25% is a pretty astonishing number.  There are more than a hundred songs in Dream Theater's discography, and 25% of the forum is in agreement in singling out YNM as the worst.  That's... pretty damning.  Imagine how much higher the number would be if the poll asked how many people placed YNM in their bottom ten. 

[BlobVanDam]

Rob speaks the truth, as usual.

That.

[KevShmev]

As for a DT concert, from what I've seen, I expect fans to eat up whatever DT throws at them.

No, that's just you, Mr. I Think Even DT's Worst Stuff Is Better Than Every Other Band's Best Stuff, which explains you defending You Not Me.

I did concede that 30% was "still a pretty decent percentage," but the point stands that we're in one of the least YNM-charitable corners of the internet and we're racking up less than one in three "Worst... song... EVERS!"

Eh.  To be honest, I think you're kind of misrepresenting the results of that poll.  According to the results of that thread, 25% of DTFers think You Not Me is DT's worst song.  That doesn't mean that the other 75% all think YNM is amazing, it just means that the other 75% have other songs they like less.  In that context, I think 25% is a pretty astonishing number.  There are more than a hundred songs in Dream Theater's discography, and 25% of the forum is in agreement in singling out YNM as the worst.  That's... pretty damning.  Imagine how much higher the number would be if the poll asked how many people placed YNM in their bottom ten.

Very well said. 

I'd be shocked if any other individual song would even get 10% if we ran a thread just like that for every other DT song.

[TheGreatPretender]

No, that's just you, Mr. I Think Even DT's Worst Stuff Is Better Than Every Other Band's Best Stuff, which explains you defending You Not Me.

I like the song, so yeah, I'm gonna defend it. What's wrong with that?

[Invisible]

I think Rob is a little off and a little right. Few people actually said that the song was the worst thing ever, but the point made by the majority here is that it's not worth it's spot on the setlist, and I think they have a point, even if I don't completely agree on. It's not a song anyone it's dying to hear and it has more than it fair share of haters, probably among the most hated songs in the catalogue even outside DTF(it's got its fame somewhere, this forum didn't create it). And this place is the most tolerant towards FII I've seen so far, so I wouldn't say that the fact that we're "DT nerds" goes against the song.

Besides, there isn't almost any real casual DT fans, at least not among concert goers. DT is not a band that's over the radio or on the news or whatever that people go and see because they know 10 songs because they overheard them or like one album, unless you count the girlfriend/friend just coming along. Hard to know for sure, but I'm pretty confident that this band number of hardcore fans per casual ratio is one of the highest there are for a band this size. I would guess that at least 50% of the audience has heard every album song at least once. It's not exactly A Vision or Eve, it's on the regular albums!(and it's the second track, not the 11th)

Still, as I said before, it might be one of those songs that gains better appreciation after it's played live, it certainly has the potential. I don't think it would be a big deal if they included it, it's just 5 minutes, if BMUBMD worked well live, this song can.

[robwebster]

I did concede that 30% was "still a pretty decent percentage," but the point stands that we're in one of the least YNM-charitable corners of the internet and we're racking up less than one in three "Worst... song... EVERS!"

Eh.  To be honest, I think you're kind of misrepresenting the results of that poll.  According to the results of that thread, 25% of DTFers think You Not Me is DT's worst song.  That doesn't mean that the other 75% all think YNM is amazing, it just means that the other 75% have other songs they like less.  In that context, I think 25% is a pretty astonishing number.  There are more than a hundred songs in Dream Theater's discography, and 25% of the forum is in agreement in singling out YNM as the worst.  That's... pretty damning.  Imagine how much higher the number would be if the poll asked how many people placed YNM in their bottom ten.

I've actually been inflated them to 70:30, when it's 75:25 - it was 72:28 when I checked, so I've consistently rounded up! - but yes, I agree. 30%, or 25%, is, as I've said three times now, a pretty decent percentage. It's also not a complete pasting, from some of the people most liable to give it one. It's not sunshine and rainbows, but it's also not... um... green fog and frogspawn?

(ETA: ragh grammar!)

[TheGreatPretender]

I think Rob is a little off and a little right. Few people actually said that the song was the worst thing ever, but the point made by the majority here is that it's not worth it's spot on the setlist, and I think they have a point, even if I don't completely agree on. It's not a song anyone it's dying to hear and it has more than it fair share of haters, probably among the most hated songs in the catalogue even outside DTF(it's got its fame somewhere, this forum didn't create it). And this place is the most tolerant towards FII I've seen so far, so I wouldn't say that the fact that we're "DT nerds" goes against the song.

Besides, there isn't almost any real casual DT fans, at least not among concert goers. DT is not a band that's over the radio or on the news or whatever that people go and see because they know 10 songs because they overheard them or like one album, unless you count the girlfriend/friend just coming along. Hard to know for sure, but I'm pretty confident that this band number of hardcore fans per casual ratio is one of the highest there are for a band this size. I would guess that at least 50% of the audience has heard every album song at least once. It's not exactly A Vision or Eve, it's on the regular albums!(and it's the second track, not the 11th)

Still, as I said before, it might be one of those songs that gains better appreciation after it's played live, it certainly has the potential. I don't think it would be a big deal if they included it, it's just 5 minutes, if BMUBMD worked well live, this song can.

The thing is, like you said, it's only 5 minutes long. If people don't want to sacrifice a measely 5 minutes (even in a 1.5 hour set), they're plain greedy. I wish DT songs that I'm not crazy about hearing were only 5 minutes long.

[robwebster]

Ohhhh, those five minutes stack up...

Again, it's the kind of thing they could have had a bit more fun with when they were doing rotating setlists. It is a bit of a wildcard, but it's the kind of thing where it's short enough to slip it into a couple of gigs early on a tour and see how it goes down. Elbow in the water.

[TheGreatPretender]

Ohhhh, those five minutes stack up...

How do you mean?

[robwebster]

And this place is the most tolerant towards FII I've seen so far, so I wouldn't say that the fact that we're "DT nerds" goes against the song.

Ohhh, you overestimate our kindness. More YouTube comments! This time from You Or Me - surely invitation, if invitation were needed, to jump on the finished version.

"I love this version. But I do like the chorus on the album version as well. I do enjoy this chorus"

"Almost better than You Not Me."

"i like you not me better this song"

"DAMN PRODUCERS F***ING UP DT'S GREAT MUSIC!!!! not to say the new version sucks, but its not the way DT would have liked it, therefore it is not a direct interpretation of what these great musicians put into the writing process. in short, the fact that it is reworked removes its musical value and meaning. and i'm just glad theyre writing independently now "

"Hmm.. Being a DT fan, the intro to this demo version is better than the final, but as much as I might get thumbs-down'd for this, I think re-writing the chorus to what it is now was a good idea. (bear in mind I heard the final version first so that might've swayed my choice) Nonetheless I still think You Not Me is a decent song."

" prefer 'You Not Me', a good chorus is missed on this version."

"...Uhm. Okay, this is way better. But I like the FII version too. Am I mad? XD I love also You not me."

"Both versions are awesome, "You Not Me" and "You Or Me". And of course, contrary to stupid comments here, Falling Into Infinity is an amazing album, one of their best for sure."

"I prefer the oficial you or me, is more powerfull... (yeah) but, this demo is not too bad... refine a litle bit more."

"i always likes you not me exept i hated the chorus . didnt fit the song at all. this version rocks the socks off the other one. glad i found out about the demos, i think the producer/ record company REALLY screwed up on infinity. i will have to listen to rest of album to see tho lol."

"Honestly, I prefer the "You NOT Me" chorus: it's more catchy. Yet, as far as all the rest is concerned (especially the arrangements, which make the song sound deeper and correspond better to the Falling into Infinity "spirit")), I prefer this one as a whole... I think."

"2:56 gives me shivers :S"


They've been given a stick to beat YNM with, but even the people who dig You Or Me... are often perfectly happy with You Not Me! I don't want to whitewash it, there's the other type of comment, too - "desmond child=mad," "I like this chorus a lot better; the other one was total ass," and my personal favourite, "FUCK Kevin Shirley!!!!!!" What did Kevin Shirley do?! But I'm not having to dig, particularly, to find praise for YNM. I just had to go where a wide cross-section of people go, and click "More."

Just cos we talk about DT more doesn't mean we like them more! In a world of DT fans, we're a nation of cynics. We're not completely at odds with the fanbase, we're not some eldritch world where up is down and black is white, but You Not Me's awfulness is basically a caricature, an exaggeration that we take a cathartic pleasure in proliferating.

Ohhhh, those five minutes stack up...

How do you mean?

Minutes disappear! Three hours is a long time, yes, but there's also a lot of stuff to get through.

[Bolsters]

You Not Me's awfulness is basically a caricature, an exaggeration that we take a cathartic pleasure in proliferating.

[TheGreatPretender]

Ohhhh, those five minutes stack up...

How do you mean?

Minutes disappear! Three hours is a long time, yes, but there's also a lot of stuff to get through.

As much stuff as they choose to have. Let's take the Luna Park set, for example. Let's say they eliminated A Fortune In Lies, and replaced it with YNM, would it really be such a gigantic make or break deal for people? I mean, if replacing one short song you love with one short songs you hate will change your mind against buying a ticket... Then I don't even see why you're a fan, seeing as how there are still so many other songs to enjoy.
What I'm saying is, I don't think the inclusion of one short song would be a make or break situation for very many people. IF the band had the urge to resurrect it, and breathe new life into it. If JP one day said, "Hey, let's put You Not Me on the setlist. That was a fun song, I miss it," then I don't think, "Oh, but I heard that a lot of fans don't like it," is going to dissuade him.

[KevShmev]

Probably not, but why waste that spot in the set on a song that they know a lot of fans clearly do not care for.  And it's likely that they don't think much of it either since it was barely played on the FII tour IIRC and has not been played since (and it is not the same as them not playing Space Dye Vest until recently, since that was not played for other reasons).  Saying, "it's only five minutes, so why not throw it in the set," is like saying every other band ought to just toss their shittiest song into live sets for the hell of it because, hey, it's only one song.  Why waste that time playing some bad song when they could spend it playing something, anything!, that is so much better?

Oh, and rob, while your posts are often full of win, I don't think posting comments from YT links, since I think most of those people comprise the dumbest people on earth, is the way to go here.   

[TheGreatPretender]

Because that's how they see it? As 'some bad song'? I highly doubt it. Again, JP said he liked how the song turned out. In fact, the reason they haven't played it is probably because of the whole Desmond Child situation, and who was the most opposed to it? Portnoy. So I wouldn't be terribly surprised if that was the reason and he was the one who was adamant about not playing it.
I highly doubt JP sees ANY of their past works as 'bad'. Don't project your opinion on the band itself.

[robwebster]

Oh, and rob, while your posts are often full of win, I don't think posting comments from YT links, since I think most of those people comprise the dumbest people on earth, is the way to go here. 

Hahaha - thank you, I try! But, I'm not trying to convince anyone they're wrong about You Not Me, just that the spectrum's wider than this website. YouTube is accessed by a far wider range of people, and there'll be more YouTubers at a show than DTFers - they're another imperfect nation, but they're more statistically representative than we are.

Especially the thumbs up-down graph - that's not even commenters, that's just viewers who have YouTube accounts. You Or Me currently has 216 thumbs up versus 3 thumbs down: that's 98.63% of the vote. You Not Me has 494 up, 5 down: 98.997995992%. That's a number that really wants to be rounded up to 99%. That's still a skewed sample, it's a percentage of the people who sought it out to listen to it, but it's got 95,404 views - 20x as many views as DTF has members. DT aren't playing to an auditorium full of people who hate You Not Me every night. That's a fact.

Whatever you think of YouTube's citizens, I think it's a bit marvellous that even on a website that notoriously turns people into psychopaths, no fight's broken out, it's basically civil. The only homophobic comment is at YNM's cost, actually!

[KevShmev]

Maybe a bunch of us DTFers should go and give that song a thumbs down.  

I suspect that many of those votes come from new fans who search for anything and everything DT-related on the 'net and YT.  Existing fans like us aren't gonna bother going to YT to listen to the songs when we already have the CDs, much less take the time to go there just to give songs thumbs up and downs, ya know?

TheGreatPretender, I am sure Portnoy is the main reason why it was never played, since once he gets it in his head that a song shouldn't be played for whatever reason - like not playing Anna Lee because it is too much of a Derek song, which, to me, is a strange reason to not play it - that's it.   But I doubt JP, who apparently is the main set list writer now, is looking at You Not Me as a song he is just dying to work into the set list any time soon, especially DT has over 100 songs and 12 albums to choose from, many of which haven't been played at all in recent years.  Plus, I can just see JLB saying, "You aren't really gonna make me sing that chorus, are you?", if JP ever proposed the idea of playing it.

[TheGreatPretender]

TheGreatPretender, I am sure Portnoy is the main reason why it was never played, since once he gets it in his head that a song shouldn't be played for whatever reason - like not playing Anna Lee because it is too much of a Derek song, which, to me, is a strange reason to not play it - that's it.   But I doubt JP, who apparently is the main set list writer now, is looking at You Not Me as a song he is just dying to work into the set list any time soon, especially DT has over 100 songs and 12 albums to choose from, many of which haven't been played at all in recent years.  Plus, I can just see JLB saying, "You aren't really gonna make me sing that chorus, are you?", if JP ever proposed the idea of playing it.

I don't see why JLB would say that.
Look, I'm not saying they're dying to play it or that we should expect it, I'm just saying to outright shut down the idea, to say, "No, there is absolutely no way in hell they would ever play it. It's outside the realm of possibility," is a little baseless to me. Maybe they will play it for FII's anniversary, and maybe they won't. Maybe they'll play the B-Sides, like You OR Me, and Speak To Me (that would be awesome). Maybe not. But nothing is absolutely impossible at this point.

[robwebster]

Maybe a bunch of us DTFers should go and give that song a thumbs down.  

I suspect that many of those votes come from new fans who search for anything and everything DT-related on the 'net and YT.  Existing fans like us aren't gonna bother going to YT to listen to the songs when we already have the CDs, much less take the time to go there just to give songs thumbs up and downs, ya know?

They don't have the disc for You Or Me unless they've got the FII demos or the Hollow Years single, and You Or Me's only doing marginally worse on the polls. As in, 0.3% different! Looking at the comments, the people listening to You Not Me clearly aren't rank amateurs - and with YOM, the kind of people who are interested enough to listen to the original demo are absolutely the kind of people who are fervent enough to buy tickets.

I do absolutely accept that YouTube research is not representative, either - it's a different level of skew, but a reduced level of skew. That said, it's had 100,000 active listeners, that's a pretty robust sample, and only three have - until today, perhaps! - felt compelled to go, "No, I really don't like this, Thumbs Down." It's more representative than us 'orrible lot. Think of DTF as a special snowflake, if it helps, but we hype each other up, and tend to beget people who are a bit like us. The people who will stick around are the people who feel like they fit in, but we really are not the beating heart of this fanbase! We're a mad cackling fringe, and it's wrong to assume the crowd thinks like us.

[RaiseTheKnife]

I'm not sure a lot of fans are dying to hear YNM live

I want to hear it live.  badly.

[hefdaddy42]

Hey, guys.  I love bashing You Not Me as much as the next guy, but we already have a thread for that (kinda).  Let's steer this one back on topic.

[TheGreatPretender]

Well, the topic was anniversaries, and all I said was that it would be nice if they dedicated a part of the set to FII anniversary in 2017, and included YNM into it.

[hefdaddy42]

Well, the topic was anniversaries, and all I said was that it would be nice if they dedicated a part of the set to FII anniversary in 2017, and included YNM into it.

That's fine, you're not in trouble.   

[Invisible]

I hope hefdaddy doesn't give me the axe, but I just wanted to contribute with the fact that JP when interviewed I think around the Black Clouds tour about working with Desmond Child, he said it was a cool experiment and he was all up for it and enjoyed it, but in the end it didn't worked out that well. But when he said that it didn't worked well I'm 99% sure it was about the song not achieveing what it was supposed to do: being a hit, not that it was a bad song.

Still, they have tons of good material on the FII era(both albums and B Sides) to chose that song, especially if it's a fixed set.

[TheGreatPretender]

Still, they have tons of good material on the FII era(both albums and B Sides) to chose that song, especially if it's a fixed set.

The thing is, most of that LIVE material already exists in audio and video form. Out of all the FII + B-Sides, here are the songs that we have official concert footage of:
New Millennium, Hollow Years, Peruvian Skies, Burning My Soul, Lines In The Sand, Just Let Me Breathe, Anna Lee, Trial of Tears, Raise The Knife, Cover My Eyes, Speak To Me... Any other ones I'm missing? So all that's left is You Not Me, Heck's Kitchen, Take Away My Pain, The Way It Used To Be, Where Are You Now. Of course, that doesn't mean that they'll necessarily play stuff that has never been played, but on the current tour, for Awake's anniversary, we did get both Lie and Space-Dye Vest, that have never seen proper video time of day. IF they decide to honor FII at all, I don't think it's all that farfetched.

[robwebster]

Abort! Abort! New location: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=41382.0

We can now go back to using this thread to count to thirty.

[TheGreatPretender]

What a ride this thread has been.