So I realized why DT's last 3 big epics have suffered in a way ACOS/8VM don't.

[snapple]

A Change of Seasons had 6 or so years of work before it was finished.

That's why it's better than the rest. It had the most time to be refined.

[Grizz]

Actually there was little change until they actually recorded the EP.

[kirksnosehair]

I'm much more into prog than metal, and I think you've hit upon one of the bigger problems I have with those later epics.  I think that they don't flow as well as "A Change of Seasons" or "Octavarium" in general, but I've never given much thought as to why.  But I think that that's it.  The mellow sections slow everything down.

Now, it's not just a simple matter of losing momentum.  To me, it's just that they make the song a lot longer for -- and it's hard to put this delicately, so I won't even try -- no real reason.  With both "The Count of Tuscany" and "Illumination Theory", those sections are great, and the songs wouldn't be the same without them, but they seem to come out of nowhere and in both cases, I find myself wondering when we're going to get back to the song.

Very much agree with this.  This is one of the things that have always amazed me about Neal Morse's epics.  Off the top of my head I can't think of any Neal-penned epics that do not flow like melted butter from one movement to the next.  Kaleidoscope has a couple of minor things that sounded a little bit forced, though.


As for Dream Theater....I enjoy most of their long songs and think many of them flow just fine, but some of them are pretty herky-jerky going from one section to the next.  Octavarium is like this.  I think it would have made more sense to split Octavarium into separate movements in the same "suite" but that's actually a pretty minor beef.  Illumination Theory -to me- is the worst offender here.  I still don't get the point of it.  It shares nothing in common with the main song, does nothing to carry the song forward, and -at least for me- kills the climax of the song.  I thought it would be better in a live setting, but it wasn't.  Too bad, because it's a good song, especially the last few minutes.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

Isn't the theme from the first part reprised in the Embracing Circle? You may want to listen again.

It feels like IT has two climaxes, a minor and major one, the minor being the instrumental section right before the Embracing Circle. It definitely feels like that section achieves the height of its momentum and that continuing in that direction would have dragged it on a bit. It's presence was only there for exactly how long it needed to be. The orchestral section offers a breather and the sudden breakdown ending it adds immensely to the drama. Call it disjointed (which I am not denying), but that still remains one of my favorite moments from DT12 as the song plunges back into the energetic fray of things. I see it as the calm before the storm, and the subsequent sections keep building up to the song's actual climax. This is why I feel IT works so well the way it's structured. Of course, I don't really expect many to agree with me here, but those are just my 2 cents.

[theseoafs]

Why is everyone in this thread acting like "momentum" is the most important quality in a musical work?  DT's longer pieces (yes, even ACOS) generally don't have the same intensity all the way through, and for good reason:  actually keeping "momentum" going for twenty minutes is boring. 

[Orbert]

Momentum can mean a couple of different things.  In the course of an extended piece, it's natural to have quieter moments in between heavier/faster parts.  You have to have contrast; you can't just go full speed the whole way through.  I agree that that gets tedious.  But if the song is a journey, you want to feel like you're moving the whole time.  There's a way to have some contrast or take a breather without literally stopping everything.  With "Illumination Theory", everything literally just stops.  I guess I'm more a fan of movements "flowing" into each other, rather than the music completely stopping, then starting up again.

[cramx3]

Momentum can mean a couple of different things.  In the course of an extended piece, it's natural to have quieter moments in between heavier/faster parts.  You have to have contrast; you can't just go full speed the whole way through.  I agree that that gets tedious.  But if the song is a journey, you want to feel like you're moving the whole time.  There's a way to have some contrast or take a breather without literally stopping everything.  With "Illumination Theory", everything literally just stops.  I guess I'm more a fan of movements "flowing" into each other, rather than the music completely stopping, then starting up again.

I agree with this.  ACOS certainly has slower parts, but it flows and feels apart of the song musically and lyrically.  IT doesnt seem to musically flow when it goes to the slower part.  Just kind of comes to a halt. 

[robwebster]

Momentum can mean a couple of different things.  In the course of an extended piece, it's natural to have quieter moments in between heavier/faster parts.  You have to have contrast; you can't just go full speed the whole way through.  I agree that that gets tedious.  But if the song is a journey, you want to feel like you're moving the whole time.  There's a way to have some contrast or take a breather without literally stopping everything.  With "Illumination Theory", everything literally just stops.  I guess I'm more a fan of movements "flowing" into each other, rather than the music completely stopping, then starting up again.

I think that's one of those things where trying to embrace the flow would be a little bit futile, though. If you want to write a song with a soft, soothing middle section, you're going to have to bring everything to a full stop - better to be brave, and bold, and daring, and have the band actually put their instruments down than to sort of keep it humming under. Illumination Theory is more of a statement, and I think that sumptuous, gorgeous moment is earned not just by the song, but by the entire album that precedes it.

I think it's the kind of thing that wouldn't be possible to do without alienating a few members of the fanbase, but I think the most powerful art is often about risk. For the people who like what they achieved, it's broken eggs in an omelette. In that sense I'm just lucky enough to be one of the people who thinks Illumination Theory is fucking gorgeous and wouldn't have it any other way. Yes, it stops! It crashes to a halt. That's the point, and it's bloody wonderful. The song stops, but the story pushes on, and it wrings every last emotion out of that orchestra, gloriously, and when the band comes back in it's like hearing them through new ears.

[KevShmev]

As usual, rob absolutely nails it.

[theseoafs]

Rob basically got it.  Yeah, the band stops playing.  The music stops being loud and heavy for a while.  That's the whole point. 

[hefdaddy42]

As usual, rob absolutely nails it.

[?]

Momentum can mean a couple of different things.  In the course of an extended piece, it's natural to have quieter moments in between heavier/faster parts.  You have to have contrast; you can't just go full speed the whole way through.  I agree that that gets tedious.  But if the song is a journey, you want to feel like you're moving the whole time.  There's a way to have some contrast or take a breather without literally stopping everything.  With "Illumination Theory", everything literally just stops.  I guess I'm more a fan of movements "flowing" into each other, rather than the music completely stopping, then starting up again.

I agree with this.  ACOS certainly has slower parts, but it flows and feels apart of the song musically and lyrically.  IT doesnt seem to musically flow when it goes to the slower part.  Just kind of comes to a halt.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

Momentum can mean a couple of different things.  In the course of an extended piece, it's natural to have quieter moments in between heavier/faster parts.  You have to have contrast; you can't just go full speed the whole way through.  I agree that that gets tedious.  But if the song is a journey, you want to feel like you're moving the whole time.  There's a way to have some contrast or take a breather without literally stopping everything.  With "Illumination Theory", everything literally just stops.  I guess I'm more a fan of movements "flowing" into each other, rather than the music completely stopping, then starting up again.

I think that's one of those things where trying to embrace the flow would be a little bit futile, though. If you want to write a song with a soft, soothing middle section, you're going to have to bring everything to a full stop - better to be brave, and bold, and daring, and have the band actually put their instruments down than to sort of keep it humming under. Illumination Theory is more of a statement, and I think that sumptuous, gorgeous moment is earned not just by the song, but by the entire album that precedes it.

I think it's the kind of thing that wouldn't be possible to do without alienating a few members of the fanbase, but I think the most powerful art is often about risk. For the people who like what they achieved, it's broken eggs in an omelette. In that sense I'm just lucky enough to be one of the people who thinks Illumination Theory is fucking gorgeous and wouldn't have it any other way. Yes, it stops! It crashes to a halt. That's the point, and it's bloody wonderful. The song stops, but the story pushes on, and it wrings every last emotion out of that orchestra, gloriously, and when the band comes back in it's like hearing them through new ears.

Basically this. You are a man of better words than I.

[Cable]

Disagree with the OP. I feel ITPOE is by far their most intense 20+ song. The wind section or whatever is the only reprieve from petal to the metal music.

8V IMO suffers the most. A long intro of being mellow, 30 seconds minutes of rocking, then back down for 7 minutes.

[erwinrafael]

Momentum can mean a couple of different things.  In the course of an extended piece, it's natural to have quieter moments in between heavier/faster parts.  You have to have contrast; you can't just go full speed the whole way through.  I agree that that gets tedious.  But if the song is a journey, you want to feel like you're moving the whole time.  There's a way to have some contrast or take a breather without literally stopping everything.  With "Illumination Theory", everything literally just stops.  I guess I'm more a fan of movements "flowing" into each other, rather than the music completely stopping, then starting up again.

I agree with this.  ACOS certainly has slower parts, but it flows and feels apart of the song musically and lyrically.  IT doesnt seem to musically flow when it goes to the slower part.  Just kind of comes to a halt.

Because the "halt" is part of the narrative of the song. From Grounded Reality to Transcendence then back to Grounded Reality. The halt marked the transition.

That said, if somebody can come up with a credible explanation of how the choochoo train transition from Another World to The Inevitable Summer in ACOs is any less out-of-left-field than the transition between the Embracing Circle and the Pursuit of Truth in IT, I would gladly quit this forum.

[erwinrafael]

Rob basically got it.  Yeah, the band stops playing.  The music stops being loud and heavy for a while.  That's the whole point.

Yes. Silence and ambience has a musical function too.

[Grizz]

That said, if somebody can come up with a credible explanation of how the choochoo train transition from Another World to The Inevitable Summer in ACOs is any less out-of-left-field than the transition between the Embracing Circle and the Pursuit of Truth in IT, I would gladly quit this forum.

Because ACoS doesn't stop to switch genres for five minutes.

[BlobVanDam]

A Change of Seasons had 6 or so years of work before it was finished.

That's why it's better than the rest. It had the most time to be refined.

Many of those years were during the period where their songwriting skills were at their most amateurish (ie pre-IAW). A couple of weeks of songwriting from the modern band easily exceeds what the band at that time was capable of in a couple of years. Time is not a deciding factor in quality.
Despite the refinements made for the 1995 recording, the core basis of the song still strongly highlights those early flaws, and that's why it's the weakest of the bunch imo.

[erwinrafael]

That said, if somebody can come up with a credible explanation of how the choochoo train transition from Another World to The Inevitable Summer in ACOs is any less out-of-left-field than the transition between the Embracing Circle and the Pursuit of Truth in IT, I would gladly quit this forum.

Because ACoS doesn't stop to switch genres for five minutes.

Well, you referred to a different section as you are apparently referencing Live, Die, Kill to Embracing Circle. Second, I was talking about the transitions, the point where one section led to the other, because the complaint is that the transitions did not flow well in IT while in ACOS, the transitions are smooth. I still can not understand how the ACOS transition going to The Inevitable Summer can be considered smooth, relative to IT.

And on the complaint about switching genres...that's so...un-prog?

[philippaopao]

Momentum can mean a couple of different things.  In the course of an extended piece, it's natural to have quieter moments in between heavier/faster parts.  You have to have contrast; you can't just go full speed the whole way through.  I agree that that gets tedious.  But if the song is a journey, you want to feel like you're moving the whole time.  There's a way to have some contrast or take a breather without literally stopping everything.  With "Illumination Theory", everything literally just stops.  I guess I'm more a fan of movements "flowing" into each other, rather than the music completely stopping, then starting up again.

I think that's one of those things where trying to embrace the flow would be a little bit futile, though. If you want to write a song with a soft, soothing middle section, you're going to have to bring everything to a full stop - better to be brave, and bold, and daring, and have the band actually put their instruments down than to sort of keep it humming under. Illumination Theory is more of a statement, and I think that sumptuous, gorgeous moment is earned not just by the song, but by the entire album that precedes it.

I think it's the kind of thing that wouldn't be possible to do without alienating a few members of the fanbase, but I think the most powerful art is often about risk. For the people who like what they achieved, it's broken eggs in an omelette. In that sense I'm just lucky enough to be one of the people who thinks Illumination Theory is fucking gorgeous and wouldn't have it any other way. Yes, it stops! It crashes to a halt. That's the point, and it's bloody wonderful. The song stops, but the story pushes on, and it wrings every last emotion out of that orchestra, gloriously, and when the band comes back in it's like hearing them through new ears.

I actually think that the "stop" produced by the ambient portion followed by the orchestra is, ironically, a great way to "interact" with us, the listeners. Imagine if the band had done another way and/or kept the momentum flowing. Lyrically, it would seem like the band is preaching lessons to us like they know what we're going through. The questions POSED in the first movements would be killed off by the REALIZATIONS in the last because it basically talks like "Life is this, so you got to do this."

With that in mind, let us remind ourselves that the band is really ambitious to write a song ABOUT HUMANITY AND THE PURSUIT OF MEANING. They could've just told us their point of view about this straight away, but no, and that ambient-orchestral section followed by the great lyrical content of Surrender, Trust and Passion is a great way to REFLECT upon that and think about how do we want to live our own lives and how do we pursue what is meaningful to us. IMO that is MATURE songwriting.

This song could actually hit you close to home if you understand anything about Existentialism, Nihilism and THE HUMAN CONDITION. If not, you could google it.

[snapple]

A Change of Seasons had 6 or so years of work before it was finished.

That's why it's better than the rest. It had the most time to be refined.

Many of those years were during the period where their songwriting skills were at their most amateurish (ie pre-IAW). A couple of weeks of songwriting from the modern band easily exceeds what the band at that time was capable of in a couple of years. Time is not a deciding factor in quality.
Despite the refinements made for the 1995 recording, the core basis of the song still strongly highlights those early flaws, and that's why it's the weakest of the bunch imo.

Well, I know we disagree. I find the immaturity in DT's earlier music charming, and adds to the experience of listening to it.

[Dublagent66]

That said, if somebody can come up with a credible explanation of how the choochoo train transition from Another World to The Inevitable Summer in ACOs is any less out-of-left-field than the transition between the Embracing Circle and the Pursuit of Truth in IT, I would gladly quit this forum.

Because ACoS doesn't stop to switch genres for five minutes.

There ya go.  I was thinking the same thing and did mention it previously.  ACOS is a very well thought out and executed stretch of music.  The transitions don't stray too far from the overall theme.  IT is just all over the place.  It sounds like a collection of certain passages from previous songs on other albums.  It's like The Shattered Fortress of 20+ min epics, but they forgot the "epic" part.

That said, if somebody can come up with a credible explanation of how the choochoo train transition from Another World to The Inevitable Summer in ACOs is any less out-of-left-field than the transition between the Embracing Circle and the Pursuit of Truth in IT, I would gladly quit this forum.

Because ACoS doesn't stop to switch genres for five minutes.

And on the complaint about switching genres...that's so...un-prog?

Yeah, I think he meant it went from prog to un-prog.

[TheGreatPretender]

Yeah, I think he meant it went from prog to un-prog.

But the whole idea of switching genres mid-song is a very prog thing to do in itself. So that doesn't make sense at all.

[KevShmev]

Yeah, I think he meant it went from prog to un-prog.

But the whole idea of switching genres mid-song is a very prog thing to do in itself. So that doesn't make sense at all.

Exactly.

Besides, progressive rock/metal is a fancy term for symphonic rock, so the middle section sounding like something out of a classical piece of music is arguably one of the most prog things they've ever done.

[Dublagent66]

I think you guys missed the point.  I wouldn't say it's necessarily about genre change persay.  It's more about the transition as it relates to the content of the song.  The classical type stuff is fine and worked great in SDOIT Overture because it set the template for what the entire song was doing.  At the same time, using guitars, bass and drums.  IT just slaps ambient keys into the middle of the song out of nowhere and it doesn't sound anything like the rest of the song.  I also think TCOT suffers from this as well but not as much.  In fact, I have no idea what IT is trying to do in it's entirety.  Each section of the song reminds me of something I've already heard before.  It sounds like a 22 min collection of cut & paste.  Reminds me more of a Schmedley Wilcox than an epic album closer.

[TAC]

Yeah, I think he meant it went from prog to un-prog.

But the whole idea of switching genres mid-song is a very prog thing to do in itself. So that doesn't make sense at all.

Exactly.

Besides, progressive rock/metal is a fancy term for symphonic rock, so the middle section sounding like something out of a classical piece of music is arguably one of the most prog things they've ever done.

That's reaching.

[Orbert]

Agreed.  I'm pretty sure that most bands known for their symphonic rock would be surprised to learn that they've been playing prog metal all this time.

[TheGreatPretender]

Agreed.  I'm pretty sure that most bands known for their symphonic rock would be surprised to learn that they've been playing prog metal all this time.

Although Epica, I would definitely say is a Symphonic Prog Metal band.

[Dublagent66]

I just listened to Illumination Theory and ACOS today.  ACOS is superior in every way from beginning to end.  The Inevitable Summer is probably one of the best pieces of guitar work I've ever heard from JP.  Some say their songwriting skills were amateurish back then.  I don't think so.  They were at the top of their game and continued to be for about a 10 year stretch up through 8VM.  After that, I don't think they have payed attention to the songwriting as much.  They've been too busy touring and that has been the main focus.  Not saying they can't write songs anymore.  They just aren't devoting as much time to it.

[erwinrafael]

I think you guys missed the point.  I wouldn't say it's necessarily about genre change persay.  It's more about the transition as it relates to the content of the song.  The classical type stuff is fine and worked great in SDOIT Overture because it set the template for what the entire song was doing.  At the same time, using guitars, bass and drums.  IT just slaps ambient keys into the middle of the song out of nowhere and it doesn't sound anything like the rest of the song.  I also think TCOT suffers from this as well but not as much.  In fact, I have no idea what IT is trying to do in it's entirety.  Each section of the song reminds me of something I've already heard before.  It sounds like a 22 min collection of cut & paste.  Reminds me more of a Schmedley Wilcox than an epic album closer.

So you have read through this whole thread and despite all the explanations, you still think there is no coherence in IT? Still no purpose for the ambient and classical section?

[TheGreatPretender]

I just listened to Illumination Theory and ACOS today.  ACOS is superior in every way from beginning to end.

Well, if SCOS suits your personal musical preferences more, then you have every right to feel that way, but the lyrics? Come on. Regardless of the sentimental meaning behind the lyrics of ACOS, they actually weren't that well written. By any standards.

[robwebster]

I think you guys missed the point.  I wouldn't say it's necessarily about genre change persay.  It's more about the transition as it relates to the content of the song.  The classical type stuff is fine and worked great in SDOIT Overture because it set the template for what the entire song was doing.  At the same time, using guitars, bass and drums.  IT just slaps ambient keys into the middle of the song out of nowhere and it doesn't sound anything like the rest of the song.  I also think TCOT suffers from this as well but not as much.  In fact, I have no idea what IT is trying to do in it's entirety.  Each section of the song reminds me of something I've already heard before.  It sounds like a 22 min collection of cut & paste.  Reminds me more of a Schmedley Wilcox than an epic album closer.

I don't think we missed a single trick.

[erwinrafael]

Yeah, I think he meant it went from prog to un-prog.

But the whole idea of switching genres mid-song is a very prog thing to do in itself. So that doesn't make sense at all.

Exactly.

[Grizz]

Fine. Halfway through the song is a drastic progressive change in style that makes the song less enjoyable for many.

[TheGreatPretender]

Fine. Halfway through the song is a drastic progressive change in style that makes the song less enjoyable for many.

And it also makes it MORE enjoyable for many.