What are your thoughts on Portnoy's Falling Into Infinity Demos?

[DTFANATIC]

How do you feel about the demos? Do you prefer Portnoy's way to release FII as a double album? Incorporating the demo as an album? Or do you think Falling Into Infinity is the best the way it is?

[JiM-Xtreme]

I am very grateful that MP made the effort to make the FII demos available so we could hear the songs as they were meant to be heard. I'm also really glad that in recent years, the band actually went back to playing certain songs in their original forms (Lines in the Sand, Hollow Years, Burning My Soul) etc.

Raise the Knife is a masterpiece. I haven't gotten round to thinking about my top 50 songs yet, but I'm pretty sure that song will crack the top 20. I love it a lot more than most of the songs that actually ending up being on the album. It's a great shame that songs like this never got an official, polished album release but at least we have these demos and live releases. The Score version of Raise the Knife is just fantastic.

Having said all of that, there's a lot to appreciate about FII the way it is. It's by far the album that took the longest to grow on me, but my god... when it did... 

[DTFANATIC]

Right. I mean, I definitely think it's not as best as their other albums, but it has a certain vibe to it that makes it unique. Just because the band hates it doesn't mean me/you should too. I could care less for like 4 or 5 songs but other than that it's great. I definitely think they should re-release the album in a brand new form. Just to give it the redemption it deserves.

[mike099]

Is there a place that you can buy the demos?  I normally go to itunes, but do not believe they are available.  Overall I love FFI.  Some really great songs, but a couple of bad ones.

[TheGreatPretender]

Is there a place that you can buy the demos?  I normally go to itunes, but do not believe they are available.  Overall I love FFI.  Some really great songs, but a couple of bad ones.

ytsejamrecords.com

I'd say the demos are compositionally superior. I can't think of a single song on FII that I liked more than the demo version. Some of them I like just as much on either version, but there wasn't a single song that I thought vastly improved on the final album.
However, that being said, the sound quality on the FII demos is just awful, so I can't listen to them for enjoyment.

[JiM-Xtreme]

I'd say the demos are compositionally superior. I can't think of a single song on FII that I liked more than the demo version. Some of them I like just as much on either version, but there wasn't a single song that I thought vastly improved on the final album.

Agreed, for the most part. However, I am SO glad that Kevin Shirley persuaded the guys to separate Hell's Kitchen from Burning My Soul and develop it into a standalone composition. By itself, I think it's one of the greatest pieces of music that DT have ever produced. As an instrumental interlude as part of BMS... not so much.

[The Letter M]

I go half-and-half on this. I am glad that I own a copy of Cleaning Out The Closet, however, because the versions of the 5 "b-sides" on there sound SO MUCH better than the ones on the YJR's FII Demos release. They're more polished-sounding and don't have the obvious studio-demo-hiss/buzz about them.

As for the FII Demos themselves, I prefer HY and TAMP over the original studio versions, and I'm also partial to AL as well. I don't mind the extra verse and subtle changes in LITS either, but I like the final version as well. Everything else I'm glad ended up being released as it was. I *love* "Hell's Kitchen" and had the original BMS been released, we never would've gotten it the way we did. The run of BMS/HK/LITS on the album is one of my favorite three-song-runs of all time in DT's catalog!

With that said, I made a mix of COTC songs, FII Demos, and the officially released songs as my personal Falling Into Infinity on my iPod. It's the only way I listen to the album anymore!

-Marc.

[TheGreatPretender]

I'm fairly indifferent about Hell's Kitchen in general. It's a not an ear sore like Erotomania, but it's nothing too special. So whether they separate it, or leave it as a part of Burning My Soul (which I'm also fairly indifferent about) makes no difference to me.

I go half-and-half on this. I am glad that I own a copy of Cleaning Out The Closet, however, because the versions of the 5 "b-sides" on there sound SO MUCH better than the ones on the YJR's FII Demos release. They're more polished-sounding and don't have the obvious studio-demo-hiss/buzz about them.

This, very much. I really don't understand it. Did they actually go back in the studio and complete those B-Sides to make them sound awesome? The FII B-Sides from Cleaning Out The Closet sound as good as the actual album to me. Like, if I heard the whole album that sounded like that, I never for a minute would think it's lacking production quality.

[jakepriest]

Raise The Knife is incredibly overrated. I'm glad they didn't include it on the album. I don't really like any of the other demos too.

[Perpetual Change]

For me, the FII demos were wake up call regarding that whole era. We'd always heard the band explain the disappointing quality of the record on label producers, but in my opinion the finished product is superior to the demos in almost every way. Couple things:

-"You Or Me" is just as bad as "You Not Me"
-"Hell's Kitchen" is way better as a standalone - "Burning My Soul" is not a very good song, and the FII demo version with Hell's Kitchen as an interlude is like eating a stale donut with amazing filling.
- I don't understand the love for "Raise the Knife" - controversial lyric subject aside, the music is pretty vanilla
- Metropolis pt. II doesn't appear to be anywhere near ready for actual recording, so I don't believe it was ever really going to make the album. Not sure why MP included it - it probably would have been better on the Making of Scenes disc.

I do like "Speak to Me", as well as some of the other more ballady b-sides, but I don't think they're better than the ballads that made the album. While I wouldn't have minded seeing them instead some of the more boring heavy songs ("You Not Me", "Burning My Soul", etc.), it's hard to imagine how fans would have reacted to any album that was mostly ballads with a few long epics. So from an editorial standpoint, I think the right songs were included in the end. It's a shame that DT had to run full-circle away from that style due to hardcore fans disliking FII, since some of those songs would have been great if DT had continued to move away from prog metal and more into a more fusiony art-rock style. But with SFAM we got pure prog metal and DT have never really looked back since.

[jakepriest]

Wasn't it only MP that really felt butthurt about that whole era?

[krieger]

I quite like the FII demos. It's one of those cases - FII is so weak any little thing helps.

I like Speak to Me... Raise the Knife is good, not amazing... the demo for Metropolis Pt.2 is cool...

It's STILL FII. It's the same album with a slightly different cloth.

[Perpetual Change]

Wasn't it only MP that really felt butthurt about that whole era?

That's not a fair statement, I don't think. MP did the most public denouncing of the record, and he has said that other members of the band *were* a bit more open to cooperating with the label producers, but it's hard to imagine the other guys weren't just as disappointed at least with the reaction. Obviously the lineup change and 180 between FII and SFaM is a pretty good indicator of that.  Plus, the other guys just aren't as public, so you never really know when they're disappointed, unlike MP, where he regularly broadcasts how he's feeling about something.

[TheGreatPretender]

- Metropolis pt. II doesn't appear to be anywhere near ready for actual recording, so I don't believe it was ever really going to make the album. Not sure why MP included it - it probably would have been better on the Making of Scenes disc.

I doubt it would've been on the album either, but it was probably included because it had been recorded around the same era, and plus there was still enough space on the CD for it. I think it's labeled on the Demos as a Bonus Track for a reason.

[MonagFam]

FII comment (not related to the demos) -- When I was introduced to DT, the first 9 albums or so had already been released.  I know that my "enabler" wasn't fond of FII.   As a result, I really only listented to it sparingly initially.  I ended up listening to it not that long ago, and I really enjoyed it.  I really felt like the whole band flourished and it's fairly refreshing to hear the mix (where I can hear Myung) for me.

Is the primary issue the actual music, or the band's/MPs feelings about the production of the album itself?  (I only know a little about the various issues.)

[DTFANATIC]

See, I'm the same. I Initially kept FII away from my ears. Then I heard LITS, and Hollow Years, and I gave the album a shot. I really enjoy a few tracks, although most are eh. It's a half good half bad album to me.

[moof]

I wish Raise the Knife made the final cut. If it did then FII would probably be my number 1

[The Stray Seed]

I really love FII. It has five songs: NM, PS, HK, LITS and ToT that are 10/10 for my taste, and no other album since then has had this many perfect tracks. I am glad that they released the Demos anyway, because songs like Speak to Me or Raise the Knife are just glorious!! I really dig all ballady songs from FII era, and I would have been perfectly cool with them doing an album of ballads, but I can definitely see why they didn't.

[TheGreatPretender]

I wish Raise the Knife made the final cut. If it did then FII would probably be my number 1

I wouldn't say #1, but if that song had replaced New Millennium, the album would probably go up about 3 places for me.

[Rodni Demental]

There's definitely a more 'organic' feel to the demos. Some of the songs were a bit over produced in studio, but whether or not that resulted in a decent listening experience is probably up for debate because I know people will take both sides.

Pretty much, you can get a look at the bigger picture (lol) by listening to both. Some songs like Anna Lee, Hollow Years, Take Away My Pain. I find their mood is more defined in the demos. Some of the feel is lost post production (especially Anna Lee, all those flanger sounds on the drums are almost gone in the produced studio version).

Then again, there are little tidbits and pieces that are missing from the demos. Extra sound effects, mostly keyboard parts that really make some of the songs feel incomplete. Lines in the Sand is missing the creepy piano melodies before the guitar solo (highlight of the song for me). Peruvian Skies is missing the Electric Piano grooves in the versus. New Millennium is missing some crucial sound effects, random percussive and ambient noises that fill up certain spots in the studio version, the demo feels a lot more empty. But then of course there are songs like Burning My Soul which has much more natural flow on the demos (not even talking about Hells Kitchen, I just prefer it to go: Extended intro/Verse 1/intro interlude again/Verse 2/Chorus. Opposed to intro/verse/chorus/verse 2. It's a good example of how many of the arrangements were altered.

I think somewhere in the middle would have been the perfect FII. Which obviously doesn't exist. What I'm trying to say is some songs were great when they were first written and almost got their quality lowered by altering them from their original form too much. Where as other aspects of the composition was still solid, but really got to shine after the mastering process highlights these parts. Also, I suppose it has to be said, but there is always the other side where something couldn't be saved from the get go if it's not your cup of tea.

Demos have more space to breath, and seem more organic creations but are missing some touches that boost some of the songs beyond what they are here. Finished Studio version is a bit more confined, but certainly more polished.

[TheGreatPretender]

There's definitely a more 'organic' feel to the demos. Some of the songs were a bit over produced in studio, but whether or not that resulted in a decent listening experience is probably up for debate because I know people will take both sides.

I doubt something like that can be accurately assessed anyway, since the only existing demo versions of the FII songs sound like wet farts. Who knows how much actual production would have went into them, had they been properly completed.

[BlobVanDam]

For me, the FII demos were wake up call regarding that whole era. We'd always heard the band explain the disappointing quality of the record on label producers, but in my opinion the finished product is superior to the demos in almost every way. Couple things:

-"You Or Me" is just as bad as "You Not Me"
-"Hell's Kitchen" is way better as a standalone - "Burning My Soul" is not a very good song, and the FII demo version with Hell's Kitchen as an interlude is like eating a stale donut with amazing filling.
- I don't understand the love for "Raise the Knife" - controversial lyric subject aside, the music is pretty vanilla
- Metropolis pt. II doesn't appear to be anywhere near ready for actual recording, so I don't believe it was ever really going to make the album. Not sure why MP included it - it probably would have been better on the Making of Scenes disc.

Exactly that. There is not a single change made on the final album that is for the worse imo. The original Hollow Years pre-chorus is nice, but the song is tighter without it. The extra verse in LITS would have been nice, but it's not a huge loss, so I consider that about even.
Everything else is no contest. Every change made was for the better, and I wouldn't really change a thing about the final album. I'd lop off YNM, and that's it. Even TAMP has grown on me lately. I don't even care for the leftover songs either, although RTK is ok.

[son_ov_hades]

I absolutely love Falling Into Infinity as it is. If the demo songs had been included, or unaltered the album would have been inferior imo. Plus that would have meant the band's best album(Scenes From A Memory) would never have happened. The demos are cool to hear but the finished product is much better. 

[The Letter M]

Semi-related side-thought - I've always wished that they would remaster the polished-sounding B-Sides from Cleaning Out The Closet with a similarly remastered version of "A Change Of Seasons", stick them on one disc, and put the Ronnie Scott's Jazz Club "Uncovered 1995" show on a second disc, and make a 2-Disc Remastered/Re-release of A Change Of Seasons.

Then again, this would be a part of my dream DT Remasters series in which IAW includes "To Live Forever" and "Don't Look Past Me" as bonus tracks. A fan can dream, though...

-Marc.

[TheGreatPretender]

Semi-related side-thought - I've always wished that they would remaster the polished-sounding B-Sides from Cleaning Out The Closet with a similarly remastered version of "A Change Of Seasons", stick them on one disc, and put the Ronnie Scott's Jazz Club "Uncovered 1995" show on a second disc, and make a 2-Disc Remastered/Re-release of A Change Of Seasons.

Then again, this would be a part of my dream DT Remasters series in which IAW includes "To Live Forever" and "Don't Look Past Me" as bonus tracks. A fan can dream, though...

-Marc.

I had a similar idea. At least to officially release the FII B-Sides, and call it "Falling Into Obscurity".

[DTFANATIC]

I absolutely love Falling Into Infinity as it is. If the demo songs had been included, or unaltered the album would have been inferior imo. Plus that would have meant the band's best album(Scenes From A Memory) would never have happened. The demos are cool to hear but the finished product is much better.

I agree. If the album wasn't messed with by the label, and Mike and the band could do what they want there wouldn't be Scenes. John P believes everything happens for a reason, and I think everything came out great in the end. It would be exciting to see what could've have been though. The songs on the demos probably would've sounded great after being mixed and mastered, and the album would've been very different. Oh well!

[Perpetual Change]

A DT bsides and rarities album would be cool.

However, the band haven't had any bsides since FII, from what I can tell.

For better or worse, the band seem to feel that every song they record with worthy of being on a record.

[davidolson22]

A DT bsides and rarities album would be cool.

However, the band haven't had any bsides since FII, from what I can tell.

For better or worse, the band seem to feel that every song they record with worthy of being on a record.

I get the impression (from interviews) they heavily suppress any b-side songs they write and don't release them. Perhaps because then they'd have to memorize yet another song and play it live, and it might end up being more popular than the songs which actually got released? Just guessing, no real idea of the motivation.

[TheGreatPretender]

A DT bsides and rarities album would be cool.

However, the band haven't had any bsides since FII, from what I can tell.

For better or worse, the band seem to feel that every song they record with worthy of being on a record.

The issue is that those B-Sides were released in an EXTREMELY limited Fan Club CD, and I think they deserve a wider access.

I get the impression (from interviews) they heavily suppress any b-side songs they write and don't release them. Perhaps because then they'd have to memorize yet another song and play it live, and it might end up being more popular than the songs which actually got released? Just guessing, no real idea of the motivation.

Honestly, yeah, something like that would definitely be more popular. I mean, imagine a new Dream Theater song that you can only hear if you see their concert, and then after that, through crappy sounding bootlegs. A song as elusive as that would definitely be well coveted. Of course, they'd always be able to release it as an EP, ACOS style.

[Ben_Jamin]

I doubt Metropolis pt. 2 would've been on FII, they never demoed the song only rehearsed it and that's what we got as a bonus track.

[Orbert]

I always thought that that was kinda funny.  I mean, the demos themselves constitute "bonus" material in that they're extra stuff, not a regular studio release.  Then there's a "bonus bonus" track!  But it makes sense to include it.  It was something else that they were working on at the time with Derek!

[The Letter M]

A DT bsides and rarities album would be cool.

However, the band haven't had any bsides since FII, from what I can tell.

For better or worse, the band seem to feel that every song they record with worthy of being on a record.

I get the impression (from interviews) they heavily suppress any b-side songs they write and don't release them. Perhaps because then they'd have to memorize yet another song and play it live, and it might end up being more popular than the songs which actually got released? Just guessing, no real idea of the motivation.

Well considering the band has been writing in the studio since Jordan came aboard, they don't really prepare much material prior to their studio sessions. Back in their early days, from before their debut all the way up to FII, they would spend time between sessions writing material. Heck, "Raise The Knife" was written around the time they recorded "A Change Of Seasons", and had even thought of putting it on the EP but decided against putting "new" material with the title track and to save it for their upcoming album.

After FII, they didn't really write more than they needed to fill an album. With SFAM, I'm sure they were conscious about writing 70-75 minutes worth of music, but they sort of went a bit overboard with SDOIT, which then ended up being a double album because of length (not by design, I'm sure - had the physical medium been able to accommodate 100 minutes of music, it likely would've been a single album). After that, they dialed it back and only wrote no more than 70 minutes of music.

It's not that they suppress or keep B-side material anymore - they just don't write more than what they need for an album.

And they HAVE had another B-Side since FII - "Raw Dog". Technically a non-album single, but it's still a song not featured on any album. Related to that, I think Road Runner should release a RR-Years Compilation of DT music and throw in "Raw Dog" on there just so it can have an actual physical release (and maybe throw on the piano version of "Wither" as well, among other things).

-Marc.

[Ben_Jamin]

I always thought that that was kinda funny.  I mean, the demos themselves constitute "bonus" material in that they're extra stuff, not a regular studio release.  Then there's a "bonus bonus" track!  But it makes sense to include it.  It was something else that they were working on at the time with Derek!

Me too, but I am glad they brought back the ending, or the One Last Time reprise.

[TheGreatPretender]

I always thought that that was kinda funny.  I mean, the demos themselves constitute "bonus" material in that they're extra stuff, not a regular studio release.  Then there's a "bonus bonus" track!  But it makes sense to include it.  It was something else that they were working on at the time with Derek!

Me too, but I am glad they brought back the ending, or the One Last Time reprise.

What do you mean? They brought back most of it.

[Ben_Jamin]

I always thought that that was kinda funny.  I mean, the demos themselves constitute "bonus" material in that they're extra stuff, not a regular studio release.  Then there's a "bonus bonus" track!  But it makes sense to include it.  It was something else that they were working on at the time with Derek!

Me too, but I am glad they brought back the ending, or the One Last Time reprise.

What do you mean? They brought back most of it.

I meant live, after Finally Free, its called Metrop. '00 overture.