Why do you feel the way you do about 8VM (song)

[theseoafs]

This poll sucks.

Either you have to love it, or think it's overrated? Ok...

Well, given what seems to be its extremely high stature among DT fans, you probably do have to think it's overrated if you don't love 8VM.

[davidolson22]

Definitely overrated. Weakest of their epics, on probably their weakest album. It's greatest strength is that it's the best song on an what I found the worst DT album. Specifically, it's the first half of this song I find quite dull. To this day I have no idea what this song is about, nor do I have any interest in micro analyzing the lyrics to figure it out.

[TheGreatPretender]

Definitely overrated. Weakest of their epics, on probably their weakest album. It's greatest strength is that it's the best song on an what I found the worst DT album. Specifically, it's the first half of this song I find quite dull. To this day I have no idea what this song is about, nor do I have any interest in micro analyzing the lyrics to figure it out.

The subject matter doesn't dictate how good a song is.

[davidolson22]

The subject matter doesn't dictate how good a song is.

What a strange thing to say.

[TheGreatPretender]

What a strange thing to say.

Not really. I don't need to understand what the song is about in order for me to enjoy it. Sometimes ambiguous songs are actually more enjoyable before you find out what they're actually about. Look at Metropolis, Lifting Shadows Off A Dream, Surrounded, Take The Time. The lyrics are worded eloquently and poetically and that's what matters.

[Sycsa]

Definitely overrated. Weakest of their epics, on probably their weakest album. It's greatest strength is that it's the best song on an what I found the worst DT album. Specifically, it's the first half of this song I find quite dull. To this day I have no idea what this song is about, nor do I have any interest in micro analyzing the lyrics to figure it out.

The subject matter doesn't dictate how good a song is.

The individual dictates what determines the quality of a song for them. I certainly appreciate songs like Sacrificed Sons, Outcry and The Great Debate a bit less purely because of their subject matter. Before I figured out what SFAM was all about, I would have listed TSCO because of how cheesy the lyrics are, but in the context of the album they make perfect sense.

[Cable]

To pile on, a song like Voices to me is pretty subpar at best, but the lyrics drag the song way up. Consequently, as Sycsa mentioned TSCO; I cannot listen to that song standalone as the lyrics are too over the top IMO, and drags the song down for me overall.

[TheGreatPretender]

To pile on, a song like Voices to me is pretty subpar at best, but the lyrics drag the song way up. Consequently, as Sycsa mentioned TSCO; I cannot listen to that song standalone as the lyrics are too over the top IMO, and drags the song down for me overall.

But do you like Voices because of what it's about, or because of how the lyrics are worded? I always thought the lyrics on it were beautiful, but I didn't find out what it was about until a couple of months ago. It didn't drag the song down for me or anything, but it could have, if the lyrics were about something I didn't care about.
What I was trying to say is that sometimes a song is better when you DON'T know what it's about. And that picking the lyrics apart trying to figure out what they mean isn't going to necessarily make the song better.
Although, honestly, in Octavarium's case, for me, it actually did. Especially Full Circle and Intervals. Once I really read what they were, and understanding the overall album, it did drive the awesomeness and depth of the song up for me. But even without that, the song in itself is great and the lyrics are worded well enough that I don't think there's anything cheesy about them, and they're plenty enjoyable without having to understand them.

But yeah, I guess it's a matter of taste.

[Cable]

To pile on, a song like Voices to me is pretty subpar at best, but the lyrics drag the song way up. Consequently, as Sycsa mentioned TSCO; I cannot listen to that song standalone as the lyrics are too over the top IMO, and drags the song down for me overall.

But do you like Voices because of what it's about, or because of how the lyrics are worded? I always thought the lyrics on it were beautiful, but I didn't find out what it was about until a couple of months ago. It didn't drag the song down for me or anything, but it could have, if the lyrics were about something I didn't care about.
What I was trying to say is that sometimes a song is better when you DON'T know what it's about. And that picking the lyrics apart trying to figure out what they mean isn't going to necessarily make the song better.
Although, honestly, in Octavarium's case, for me, it actually did. Especially Full Circle and Intervals. Once I really read what they were, and understanding the overall album, it did drive the awesomeness and depth of the song up for me. But even without that, the song in itself is great and the lyrics are worded well enough that I don't think there's anything cheesy about them, and they're plenty enjoyable without having to understand them.

But yeah, I guess it's a matter of taste.

For what it's about and how it's worded. If it was about the same thing, but in an TSCO writing quality, the song would not be as good. I love Endless Sacrifice's message, but there isn't much mystery to it. Same for TCOT; I think the story is ok, way it's written no.

[TheGreatPretender]

I love Endless Sacrifice's message, but there isn't much mystery to it.

Maybe not, but I still think it's worded really well. I mean, "The emptiness inside is growing deeper, still" is much nicer, than, say, "Now wait a minute, man".

[Mindflux]

Definitely overrated. Weakest of their epics, on probably their weakest album. It's greatest strength is that it's the best song on an what I found the worst DT album. Specifically, it's the first half of this song I find quite dull. To this day I have no idea what this song is about, nor do I have any interest in micro analyzing the lyrics to figure it out.

Worst DT Album? 

[Cable]

I love Endless Sacrifice's message, but there isn't much mystery to it.

Maybe not, but I still think it's worded really well. I mean, "The emptiness inside is growing deeper, still" is much nicer, than, say, "Now wait a minute, man".

I think you misunderstand a bit. I knew what ES and TCOT were about as soon as I heard them. Voices I didn't, UAGM I didn't, Scarred I didn't. The words are much more abstract, and make them more deep to get into. That's not to say ES isn't worded well, I didn't say that. Just that it's blatant what it's about.

[orcus116]

The subject matter doesn't dictate how good a song is.

If you're going to write lyrics, making them tie well into the music for a given effect is like songwriting 101. Subject matter is most definitely important if you're trying to draw someone in with words or else you might as well use the vocal part as another instrument and merely sing the notes of the vocal melody instead of words.

[Perpetual Change]

Agreed with the above, but I don't think 8va suffers in the lyric department at all. It's probably one of the more creative topics DT have written on since SDOIT disc 1, I think.

[TheGreatPretender]

I think you misunderstand a bit. I knew what ES and TCOT were about as soon as I heard them. Voices I didn't, UAGM I didn't, Scarred I didn't. The words are much more abstract, and make them more deep to get into. That's not to say ES isn't worded well, I didn't say that. Just that it's blatant what it's about.

No, I understand. I was just saying that it doesn't necessarily have to be ambiguous and mysterious in order for it to be enjoyable. But sometimes, that ambiguity can give you imagery that completely differs from what the song is actually about, and as such, it will probably have a different, and much more personal meaning to you, because you're using your own influences and experiences to interpret the lyrics in your own way.

If you're going to write lyrics, making them tie well into the music for a given effect is like songwriting 101. Subject matter is most definitely important if you're trying to draw someone in with words or else you might as well use the vocal part as another instrument and merely sing the notes of the vocal melody instead of words.

Well, personally, I see absolutely nothing wrong with writing lyrics that are composed of nonsensical, abstract poetry, with no meaning behind it whatsoever, as long as it's worded nicely.

But I'm not talking about song writing, I'm talking about listening. As a listener, are you saying that you can't enjoy a song if you don't understand what the lyrics are about?

[orcus116]

Not necessarily, but I enjoy many songs where the lyrics are in the forefront or when combined with the music create a much more powerful listening experience. To be fair to you, not all music I listen to is like that for a variety of reasons (instrumental bands, unintelligible lyrics, juvenile lyrics, etc) but almost all of the songs I really like I make a connection both musically and lyrically.

[TheGreatPretender]

Not necessarily, but I enjoy many songs where the lyrics are in the forefront or when combined with the music create a much more powerful listening experience. To be fair to you, not all music I listen to is like that for a variety of reasons (instrumental bands, unintelligible lyrics, juvenile lyrics, etc) but almost all of the songs I really like I make a connection both musically and lyrically.

Well, obviously the lyrics are there for a reason, and I think in most cases, for the majority of people, they will understand what their favorite songs are about. But usually, if I don't, I'm not going to go out of my way to find out. I'll just enjoy the song for its poetry.

And with some bands, like Rammstein, knowing what kind of stuff they write about, I go out of my way to avoid finding out how their lyrics translate, and just pretend they're singing about something badass.

[Sycsa]

My favorite quote regarding lyrics belongs to Ian Gillan: "Words have to sound good. They have to sound like an instrument, they have to have the right percussive value, the right sibilance."

[TheGreatPretender]

My favorite quote regarding lyrics belongs to Ian Gillan: "Words have to sound good. They have to sound like an instrument, they have to have the right percussive value, the right sibilance."

That I agree with.

But we're kind of getting off topic. Honestly, the run on verses of Full Circle are really awesome for the most part. Although sometimes it seemed like a few of the references in them were thrown in for no reason. Like, I can understand stuff like Cinema Show, Sailing On The Seven Seas, etc., because those are all musical references. But has Owen Wilson really been such a dramatic influence on DT or Progressive music?

[Sycsa]

Yeah, I always wondered what was the case with Owen Wilson. They must have had a good reason to include him though. I bet he doesn't even know about it, otherwise he wouldn't have tried to off himself.

[BlobVanDam]

I actually came up with a long lyrical analysis of Octavarium that I think works pretty well, although it's several pages long, so I've never gotten around to posting it.
But lyrics don't really matter. Good music is good music, and Octavarium is outstanding music.

[TheGreatPretender]

I actually came up with a long lyrical analysis of Octavarium that I think works pretty well, although it's several pages long, so I've never gotten around to posting it.
But lyrics don't really matter. Good music is good music, and Octavarium is outstanding music.

I'm hoping I'm not biting off more than I could chew, but I'm curious about reading it.

[Octavarious]

I actually came up with a long lyrical analysis of Octavarium that I think works pretty well, although it's several pages long, so I've never gotten around to posting it.
But lyrics don't really matter. Good music is good music, and Octavarium is outstanding music.

I'm hoping I'm not biting off more than I could chew, but I'm curious about reading it.

Me too. And this topic should be the right place to post it, at least I see it this way.

[black_biff_stadler]

Definitely overrated. Weakest of their epics, on probably their weakest album. It's greatest strength is that it's the best song on an what I found the worst DT album. Specifically, it's the first half of this song I find quite dull. To this day I have no idea what this song is about, nor do I have any interest in micro analyzing the lyrics to figure it out.

Worst DT Album? 

I also consider it their worst. No need to shit on others' opinions.

[davidolson22]

Definitely overrated. Weakest of their epics, on probably their weakest album. It's greatest strength is that it's the best song on an what I found the worst DT album. Specifically, it's the first half of this song I find quite dull. To this day I have no idea what this song is about, nor do I have any interest in micro analyzing the lyrics to figure it out.

Worst DT Album? 

I also consider it their worst. No need to shit on others' opinions.

lol, it's fine. I realize that it's actually a well-liked album around these parts and expected some grief. For me, this album made me stop listening to DT for 10 years because I didn't like where they were going.

[Ruba]

The third and the fourth option. The intro is great, but I'm not too keen about Someone Like Him and even less about Medicate Me. And Full Circle is not their shining moment either.

[KevShmev]

Definitely overrated. Weakest of their epics, on probably their weakest album. It's greatest strength is that it's the best song on an what I found the worst DT album. Specifically, it's the first half of this song I find quite dull. To this day I have no idea what this song is about, nor do I have any interest in micro analyzing the lyrics to figure it out.

Worst DT Album? 

I also consider it their worst.

It is by far the DT album I listen to the least. 

[Mindflux]

It is by far the DT album I listen to the least.

You listen to WDADU more than 8VM?

[KevShmev]

Yes.  Plus, when I do a random listen of DT tunes, nothing from OV makes the cut, because I usually don't go for the really long ones in those cases, leaving the title track out, and I don't pick any of the other songs.  Meanwhile, songs like Afterlife, Light Fuse and Get Away, Only a Matter of Time, and Ytse Jam often get play time with me.

Besides, I consider WDADU to be better than both Ocatavarium and Systematic Chaos, so there ya go.

[Sacul]

Someone Like Him and Medicate are boring for me.

[jakepriest]

I'd rather listen to anything on Octavarium than BC&SL(except TCOT), WDADU and Falling Into Infinity.

[BlobVanDam]

Octavarium is a mid range DT album, but better than anything that has come since (and lol at WDADU even being mentioned).

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

inb4 but WDADU is awesome


















But WDADU is awesome

[adastra]

I love the way it build and builds and builds! :3
the middle keyboard solo by rudess is just amazing!

[Cable]

Octavarium is a mid range DT album, but better than anything that has come since (and lol at WDADU even being mentioned).

I think WDADU is equal with 8V; not better, not worse. And I agree with your view of 8V as a whole of a mid-tier album, although sometimes like WDADU it bounces higher for me.