Better Songs or Better Production?

[puppyonacid]

I'm not really thinking about the last couple of albums here.

WDADU in my opinion has a better spread of decent songs than say BC&SL. However, you can't argue that BC&SL has way better production than WDADU. I remember starting a thread about DTs recent mixing and production techniques. Some people have been highly critical. Some people don't see the problem.

So if you absolutely had to choose, what would you go for? A pristine album with great mixing and headroom; and wonderful stereo imaging but sub par song writing? Or an album with amazing songs but a mix and master that doesn't quite hit the spot?

What is more important?

[GasparXR]

I'd vote for better songs. The perfect example is the one you posted: WDADU & BC&SL. I would take WDADU over BC&SL any day. That being said, there are albums out there with the best of both worlds, DT12 and The Mountain just to name a couple recent ones.

[BlobVanDam]

I'll just listen to FII or SDOIT and have both, thank you very much.

Whereas WDADU fail miserably at both.

[JiM-Xtreme]

A surprisingly tough one to call. I love a lot of the composition on WDADU, especially The Killing Hand, but it's such a shame that the sub-par production makes that album unlistenable for a lot of people. I find BC&SL an amazing listening experience, but it's hard to say whether the "epic" feel of that album has more to do with the composition or the production.

I voted songs, more out of principle than anything else.

[TheGreatPretender]

I'd definitely go for better songs. But frankly, it's not like WDADU's production shortcomings are made up for with amazing songs or anything. I still think it's the weakest of all DT's albums. If it had amazing production, it would still be the weakest. It's got a couple of really good songs, but most range from average to mediocre at best, and by DT's standards, outright poor.

But if the production is outright awful, it does prevent me from enjoying a good song, which is the case for FII Demos. I'd rather listen to the album versions of Hollow Years and Take Away My Pain over the Demo versions, even though in terms of composition, I prefer the demo versions.

[BlobVanDam]

I'd definitely go for better songs. But frankly, it's not like WDADU's production shortcomings are made up for with amazing songs or anything. I still think it's the weakest of all DT's albums. If it had amazing production, it would still be the weakest. It's got a couple of really good songs, but most range from average to mediocre at best, and by DT's standards, outright poor.

But if the production is outright awful, it does prevent me from enjoying a good song, which is the case for FII Demos. I'd rather listen to the album versions of Hollow Years and Take Away My Pain over the Demo versions, even though in terms of composition, I prefer the demo versions.

Bingo.
Obviously the music comes first, but production can factor into my enjoyment a bit too depending on the issue, as was the case with DT12. But if the music is good, I'd deal with it.
But then there's WDADU, which is hindered both in production and songwriting. Even with amazing production, I'd still never listen to most of those songs again.

[puppyonacid]

I submit that A fortune in Lies, the Killing Hand, YTSE Jam, Afterlife and Only a Matter of Time trump anything and everything on BC&SL!

[BlobVanDam]

I submit that A fortune in Lies, the Killing Hand, YTSE Jam, Afterlife and Only a Matter of Time trump anything and everything on BC&SL!

I submit that Only a Matter of Time is one of the most amateurish songs they have ever written (beaten only by the even weaker material on the album), and doesn't come close to anything that has come since, including BCASL. The best of WDADU might almost come close to the worst of BCASL.

[Zook]

I submit that A fortune in Lies, the Killing Hand, YTSE Jam, Afterlife and Only a Matter of Time trump anything and everything on BC&SL!

I submit that Only a Matter of Time is one of the most amateurish songs they have ever written (beaten only by the even weaker material on the album), and doesn't come close to anything that has come since, including BCASL. The best of WDADU might almost come close to the worst of BCASL.

Yeah, but you like Warrent.

[BlobVanDam]

I submit that A fortune in Lies, the Killing Hand, YTSE Jam, Afterlife and Only a Matter of Time trump anything and everything on BC&SL!

I submit that Only a Matter of Time is one of the most amateurish songs they have ever written (beaten only by the even weaker material on the album), and doesn't come close to anything that has come since, including BCASL. The best of WDADU might almost come close to the worst of BCASL.

Yeah, but you like Warrent.

Your trolling is just getting old.

[ZirconBlue]

Generally, better songs is much more important than better production.  But sometimes the production is so bad (see: Vapour Trails) that I just can't listen to an album long enough to find out how good the songs are.

[The Stray Seed]

Disagree with what Blob said, I really like OAMOT. Anyway, I voted for better songs all the way.

[JiM-Xtreme]

OAMOT is one of my favourite DT songs. The lyrics are fantastic and the melodies are great too.

[Zook]

I submit that A fortune in Lies, the Killing Hand, YTSE Jam, Afterlife and Only a Matter of Time trump anything and everything on BC&SL!

I submit that Only a Matter of Time is one of the most amateurish songs they have ever written (beaten only by the even weaker material on the album), and doesn't come close to anything that has come since, including BCASL. The best of WDADU might almost come close to the worst of BCASL.

Yeah, but you like Warrent.

Your trolling is just getting old.

So is your bashing of WDADU.

[BlobVanDam]

I submit that A fortune in Lies, the Killing Hand, YTSE Jam, Afterlife and Only a Matter of Time trump anything and everything on BC&SL!

I submit that Only a Matter of Time is one of the most amateurish songs they have ever written (beaten only by the even weaker material on the album), and doesn't come close to anything that has come since, including BCASL. The best of WDADU might almost come close to the worst of BCASL.

Yeah, but you like Warrent.

Your trolling is just getting old.

So is your bashing of WDADU.

Because criticism of an album relevant to the discussion is totally the same as trolling a member in multiple threads with personal attacks based on completely unrelated musical listening.

[Zook]

I submit that A fortune in Lies, the Killing Hand, YTSE Jam, Afterlife and Only a Matter of Time trump anything and everything on BC&SL!

I submit that Only a Matter of Time is one of the most amateurish songs they have ever written (beaten only by the even weaker material on the album), and doesn't come close to anything that has come since, including BCASL. The best of WDADU might almost come close to the worst of BCASL.

Yeah, but you like Warrent.

Your trolling is just getting old.

So is your bashing of WDADU.

Because criticism of an album relevant to the discussion is totally the same as trolling a member in multiple threads with personal attacks based on completely unrelated musical listening.

None of your criticisms of WDADU are constructive in the slightest, and if you're taking my teasing of your love for Hair Metal personally, then you have problems.

[?]

Better songs, obviously. However, I think hiring an outside (co)producer would be a great idea.

[Perpetual Change]

Both. Better production has been the obvious one for awhile, but I'd also love to hear DT try "different" songs. They're still good at writing that sort of high-octane prog metal, but I'd like to hear them try something different one of these days.

[rumborak]

Songs. No amount of excellent production can save a bad song, whereas it's hard to kill off a really strong song.

[Jaq]

Better songs generally beats better production any day of the week. It takes like St. Anger level production to make a good song unlistenable, but good production can't save an awful song.

Also: Blob hates WDADU, in other news, horse beaten to death by side of road, film at 11. I swear someone could talk about movie production and Blob would show up to bash WDADU.

[KevShmev]

Also: Blob hates WDADU, in other news, horse beaten to death by side of road, film at 11. I swear someone could talk about movie production and Blob would show up to bash WDADU.

And the last 30 minutes of Awake.

[kirksnosehair]

The quality of the music is more important to me than the quality of the mix/production.


In fact, when considering Dream Theater album rankings, WDADU rarely occupies last place on my list.  And that's because I really, really love some of the songs on that disc.

[BlobVanDam]

Better songs generally beats better production any day of the week. It takes like St. Anger level production to make a good song unlistenable, but good production can't save an awful song.

Also: Blob hates WDADU, in other news, horse beaten to death by side of road, film at 11. I swear someone could talk about movie production and Blob would show up to bash WDADU.

It was brought up in the OP, the poster after that, then the two posters after my post not even related to my post, so get off my back and don't single me out.

Also: Blob hates WDADU, in other news, horse beaten to death by side of road, film at 11. I swear someone could talk about movie production and Blob would show up to bash WDADU.

And the last 30 minutes of Awake.

That goes for you too.

[puppyonacid]

ahhhh FWIW I'm sorry Blob. That obviously wasn't the intended focus of the thread or poll.

There was absolutely no malice intended on my part. I've said before that your opinions do tickle me as you seem to detest the material so much. But, I actually find your opinions interesting and actually do respect them.

[nikatapi]

Better songs for sure. This is why i prefer WDADU over BC&SL.

It should be said though that given DT's current status and financial ability, anything below a great production is unacceptable. This is why i personally have been very critical of the production on the last albums, because i think that good songwriting is sometimes hindered by production issues, with some parts being barely audible or imbalanced compared to other instruments.

So a mediocre production can impact the perception of the songs, but good songwriting is good anyway.

[Outcrier]

Better songs.

This is why i prefer WDADU over BC&SL.

This.

[Jaffa]

Honestly, I really don't care about production at all. 

[Kotowboy]

Honestly, I really don't care about production at all.

If DT12 is the worst they sound then that's more than fine by me.

Immaculate production doesn't make it a better album.

I'd rather DT12 every time with fantastic songs that sparkling production and mediocre songs.



I think the last time we got great production AND great songs was Octavarium.

[CrimsonSunrise]

Better production for me.  Reason is, there aren't enough BAD DT songs to me that it would be an issue.  So, overall there's going to be a good body of work.  Then I have the great production to make them sound all the better.

[GasparXR]

Better production for me.  Reason is, there aren't enough BAD DT songs to me that it would be an issue.  So, overall there's going to be a good body of work.  Then I have the great production to make them sound all the better.

I see your point. I personally find it unlikely that they will ever make an album or song that I dislike. I still WANT better songs over better production, but I'm 99.9% certain I will get good and more than likely better-than-good songs from DT, and in general, the production on DT albums are good or great.

[Jaq]

Better songs generally beats better production any day of the week. It takes like St. Anger level production to make a good song unlistenable, but good production can't save an awful song.

Also: Blob hates WDADU, in other news, horse beaten to death by side of road, film at 11. I swear someone could talk about movie production and Blob would show up to bash WDADU.

It was brought up in the OP, the poster after that, then the two posters after my post not even related to my post, so get off my back and don't single me out.

Also: Blob hates WDADU, in other news, horse beaten to death by side of road, film at 11. I swear someone could talk about movie production and Blob would show up to bash WDADU.

And the last 30 minutes of Awake.

That goes for you too.

Someone's at home to Mr. Grouchy, I see.

Sorry, dude, but if someone posts about WDADU, I can practically hear you think "A WDADU POST! I MUST BASH THE PRODUCTION AND SONGWRITING!" and you show up and make the same post about the awful production, compare it to a demo (which shows me you didn't hear a lot of demos in the 80s) and seem offended when people actually like the fucking album. We get it. You don't like it. Lighten up.

[BlobVanDam]

Sorry, dude, but if someone posts about WDADU, I can practically hear you think "A WDADU POST! I MUST BASH THE PRODUCTION AND SONGWRITING!" and you show up and make the same post about the awful production, compare it to a demo (which shows me you didn't hear a lot of demos in the 80s) and seem offended when people actually like the fucking album. We get it. You don't like it. Lighten up.

Your post suggested that I post about WDADU completely unrelated, when as I pointed out, it was mentioned several times before me including the OP itself, and now you're criticizing me for mentioning the production and songwriting IN A THREAD THAT IS SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE PRODUCTION AND SONGWRITING. There is absolutely nothing wrong with what I have posted in this thread, and yet you seem to have some problem with me, when I'm not even the only person in this thread to express a negative opinion of the album.

If you've got an actual point to make about my opinion, then actually do so in future, but derailing the thread with jabs at me don't serve any purpose in a discussion. I'm not offended by people liking the album, but you sure do seem offended that I don't like it, given that you had to go and make it personal.

[KevShmev]

Someone's at home to Mr. Grouchy, I see.

Sorry, dude, but if someone posts about WDADU, I can practically hear you think "A WDADU POST! I MUST BASH THE PRODUCTION AND SONGWRITING!" and you show up and make the same post about the awful production, compare it to a demo (which shows me you didn't hear a lot of demos in the 80s) and seem offended when people actually like the fucking album. We get it. You don't like it. Lighten up.

[lithium112]

Tough call to make because ultimately a good song will have more staying power, but poor production prevents me from listening to it in the first place.

Can't say I agree with claims in the OP too much though, as every song on BC&SL is a lot more mature from a songwriting perspective than anything on WDADU in my opinion. I'm actually a bit surprised that this many DT fans like WDADU. Some of the songs are fun, but I've always considered it to be spectacularly under-par by the standards of anything DT has release since.

Honestly, I really don't care about production at all. 

Is that because you are counting on the hypothetical song being released live or remastered later? Or because you truly don't care how it sounds? I find it hard to relate to the latter, but to each their own!

[hefdaddy42]

Everyone, stay on topic.  This is not an anti-Blob thread.