Outcry multi angle on Live at Luna Park

[El Barto]

For the record, I do think that Portnoy usually did a really good job with the set lists.  I just think he overthought it at times and got too obsessed with not having repeats instead of having the best set list possible, and I think Score is a good example of this.

Never really had that problem. While I agree that the Score setlist wasn't what I would have personally preferred, I don't think it was anything too far removed from what they were doing the entire tour. They played IWBS every damned night, and while I certainly could have done without SS, they were touring for an album after all.   

[TAC]

For the record, I do think that Portnoy usually did a really good job with the set lists.  I just think he overthought it at times and got too obsessed with not having repeats instead of having the best set list possible, and I think Score is a good example of this.

Never really had that problem. While I agree that the Score setlist wasn't what I would have personally preferred, I don't think it was anything too far removed from what they were doing the entire tour. They played IWBS every damned night, and while I certainly could have done without SS, they were touring for an album after all.   

The real problem with the set list  stemmed from cramming all 42 minutes of Six Degrees into the set.

[KevShmev]

Honestly, after looking it over again, the biggest beef I would have with it is the back to back of Vacant and The Answer Lies Within.  I know, the orchestra and blah, blah, blah, but after a long epic like 6DOIT, bringing it down with a slower tune was understandable, but those two back to back?  See, that is where I think he painted himself in a corner by having the songs all played in chronological order, except for the opening two songs of the show and the encore.  It makes the middle of that 2nd set look totally limp, especially since it is followed by Sacrificed Sons, which I am not that fond of, but again, that's just me.  Hell, a few tweaks like below, and think of how much more awesome the set list would have looked:

The Root of All Evil
I Walk Beside You (since it was played non-stop on that tour, I'll concede it staying )
Another Won
Afterlife
Under a Glass Moon
Voices
Raise the Knife
The Spirit Carries On

6DOIT
In the Name of God
Octavarium

Metropolis

Make that set list and I wouldn't care less about no Take the Time or Learning to Live.

Or maybe ditch The Root... as the opener, having Metropolis open the show, like it did at times early in their career, and then make LTL or TTT the encore.  Now we're talking!!

[TAC]

Kev, I'm surprised that you don't like IWBY, with its obvious U2 feel. Did they play it when you saw them? I was not a fan of it, but when I saw them (the night before Score was recorded), they played it and it went over very well, and in fact since seeing it live, I have a whole new appreciation for it.

You're only swapping out Voices (did they even play it on that tour?) for IF and ITNOG(didn't think they played that either on the tour) for TALW/V/SS.  Those are really just minor tweaks.


Edit:
We got TTT instead of UAGM and it was awesome!

[Sycsa]

Having Under a Glass Moon and Innocence Faded right next to eachother, two of the best JLB moments, is the absolute best thing about Score.

[bosk1]

For the record, I do think that Portnoy usually did a really good job with the set lists.  I just think he overthought it at times and got too obsessed with not having repeats instead of having the best set list possible, and I think Score is a good example of this.

Never really had that problem. While I agree that the Score setlist wasn't what I would have personally preferred, I don't think it was anything too far removed from what they were doing the entire tour. They played IWBS every damned night, and while I certainly could have done without SS, they were touring for an album after all.   

The real problem with the set list  stemmed from cramming all 42 minutes of Six Degrees into the set.

Exactly.  Once that was included in the set, they had almost no options given the other constraints.  But I still don't consider that to be a "problem."  I'm glad they played Six Degrees.

[rumborak]

It's just such a bummer that they didn't have more practice time. I mean, the concert was fantastic (and the pre-concert meetup especially!!), but to me SDOIT essentially just exists as an album recording.

[El Barto]

It's just such a bummer that they didn't have more practice time. I mean, the concert was fantastic (and the pre-concert meetup especially!!), but to me SDOIT essentially just exists as an album recording.

It really wasn't well suited for the orchestra (aside from the overture, obviously). But then that applied to a lot of that set. Honestly, that's why I'm never a fan of rock groups playing with orchestras. All too often they wind up just trying to cram them in somewhere and it detracts from otherwise good songs (Metropolis comes to mind).

However, I still think 6DoIT an excellent live song, and some of the other live versions are great.

[bosk1]

I disagree.  I think there are parts where the orchestra showed that it could have really elevated the song (again, as others have said, assuming they were a bit tighter and in tune).

[TheGreatPretender]

That's remarkably short-sighted. Just because added attention to detail isn't necessarily required doesn't mean that it isn't beneficial. I'm not saying that it is the case, but what you're suggesting is that the band is in a situation now where they can dump a project off to someone else and put out a product that's good enough. If that were the case (and it's probably not), then I'd be pretty damned offended. All I'm saying is that MP's attention to detail and desire to put out the best possible product is something that people should appreciate.

Well, like you said, that's probably not the case. And I'm not saying they should just dump this stuff off on people and not care what comes out. I'm just saying they don't have to be there for the entire editing process, overseeing every little frame that gets on the DVD.
And sure, it's cool that MP did that, but I don't think it was all that necessary, and it's that kind of hard, meticulous work that probably contributed to him growing tired of being in DT in the first place.

[BlobVanDam]

Not to mention that God only knows what the set list would have been, given his overthinking when it came to not wanting to put songs that had already been on previous live DVDs.  Granted, that worked well at times, but sometimes he overthought it and the set list suffered as a result (see: the Score set list, which is a poor representation of the band considering it was a 20th anniversary set list, unless someone really thinks celebrating the band's 20th by playing The Answer Lies Within and I Walk Beside You, but not playing Take the Time or Learning to Live, was a good idea).

Given some of the baffling inclusions (and exlusions) from LALP, some overthinking would have done some good.

[TheGreatPretender]

Personally, as a whole, I liked Score's setlist a LOT more than LAB. LAB starts out extremely strong, but after the Instrumedley, it just plummets for me. The very end of it, everything after SOC is awesome as well, but that middle section is almost entirely skippable for me. With Score, there isn't a song on that setlist that I'd skip.

For the most part, LALP setlist was really good. I just wish they played actual songs from the first disc of SDOIT instead of parts of the title track itself. Especially the songs they did play. I don't care that much about those. But aside from that, it was a damn solid setlist.

[Rodni Demental]

For the record, I do think that Portnoy usually did a really good job with the set lists.  I just think he overthought it at times and got too obsessed with not having repeats instead of having the best set list possible, and I think Score is a good example of this.

I know it's all been discussed before and that Score has been accepted by a lot of fans to be a fairly surprising setlist, or considered to not live up to certain expectations. But to me, I always figured it was the sort of, 'family' setlist. I don't know if you follow me, but all of the songs, whether they're fan favourites or not, I felt were still very representative of various expressions of their career, being an anniversary show and from what I understand was also a big night that a lot of friends and family attended.

It's not exactly an excuse, and I can't really speak for the Band's (or MPs) choices, but I think it's safe to assume on a night like that we weren't exactly gonna hear any: As I Am, Honor Thy Father or Never Enough. To a lesser extent I can almost see how Vacant might have been the most obvious choice from Train of Thought aswell seeing as most of those tracks (including In The Name Of God), just didn't really fit with the 'mood' of this particular set.

Also, despite my surprise of the Score setlist at first, I kind of appreciate it now because it got me into a couple of DT songs that I was completely ignoring until I heard them in this show. (Raise the Knife, Innocence Faded, Another Won, Afterlife, and even Under a Glass Moon didn't have my attention..) 

As far as Luna Park goes, I think it's a great setlist, and I'm practically wanting to collect a live version of every single song all over again with MM, so we're off to a great start to this new era for DT.

[KevShmev]

Kev, I'm surprised that you don't like IWBY, with its obvious U2 feel. Did they play it when you saw them? I was not a fan of it, but when I saw them (the night before Score was recorded), they played it and it went over very well, and in fact since seeing it live, I have a whole new appreciation for it.

You're only swapping out Voices (did they even play it on that tour?) for IF and ITNOG(didn't think they played that either on the tour) for TALW/V/SS.  Those are really just minor tweaks.

I didn't see them on that tour (I have not seen them since the Train of Thought tour).  I actually like I Walk Beside You, but I just wouldn't put it on an anniversary set list.  But I get why it was played, it being from the album they were touring on and all. 

Given some of the baffling inclusions (and exlusions) from LALP, some overthinking would have done some good.

What do you think the baffling inclusions were?  And baffling exclusions?

I suspect you will say The Dark Eternal Night, The Spirit Carries On and/or War Inside My Head/Test That Stumped..., but for me, those are all such great live songs from what I have seen, and ones the crowd totally got into, that their inclusion makes perfect sense.  I have no problem with repeating songs across multiple DVDs when they are as good a live songs as all of those are.  The crowd goes nuts for The Spirit Carries On every time, so they could play that at every show until they retire and it'd be fine by me.

For the record, I do think that Portnoy usually did a really good job with the set lists.  I just think he overthought it at times and got too obsessed with not having repeats instead of having the best set list possible, and I think Score is a good example of this.

I know it's all been discussed before and that Score has been accepted by a lot of fans to be a fairly surprising setlist, or considered to not live up to certain expectations. But to me, I always figured it was the sort of, 'family' setlist. I don't know if you follow me, but all of the songs, whether they're fan favourites or not, I felt were still very representative of various expressions of their career, being an anniversary show and from what I understand was also a big night that a lot of friends and family attended.

It's not exactly an excuse, and I can't really speak for the Band's (or MPs) choices, but I think it's safe to assume on a night like that we weren't exactly gonna hear any: As I Am, Honor Thy Father or Never Enough. To a lesser extent I can almost see how Vacant might have been the most obvious choice from Train of Thought aswell seeing as most of those tracks (including In The Name Of God), just didn't really fit with the 'mood' of this particular set.

Also, despite my surprise of the Score setlist at first, I kind of appreciate it now because it got me into a couple of DT songs that I was completely ignoring until I heard them in this show. (Raise the Knife, Innocence Faded, Another Won, Afterlife, and even Under a Glass Moon didn't have my attention..) 

As far as Luna Park goes, I think it's a great setlist, and I'm practically wanting to collect a live version of every single song all over again with MM, so we're off to a great start to this new era for DT.

Despite my comments on the Score set list, this is a very nice and well-written post.  I appreciate your perspective. 

[BlobVanDam]

Given some of the baffling inclusions (and exlusions) from LALP, some overthinking would have done some good.

What do you think the baffling inclusions were?  And baffling exclusions?

I suspect you will say The Dark Eternal Night, The Spirit Carries On and/or War Inside My Head/Test That Stumped..., but for me, those are all such great live songs from what I have seen, and ones the crowd totally got into, that their inclusion makes perfect sense.  I have no problem with repeating songs across multiple DVDs when they are as good a live songs as all of those are.  The crowd goes nuts for The Spirit Carries On every time, so they could play that at every show until they retire and it'd be fine by me.

After watching the show, I'm actually fine with TSCO, since it is such a live staple, just as I wouldn't even question Metropolis or PMU. TDEN I'm cool with too, since it's obviously going to be very different without MP, and because the CiM version hardly counts.
But after watching the DVD, WIMH/TTTSTA are just so thoroughly redundant and unnecessary, and there was no reason to include them at all. They were already on Budokan, and Score, and nothing new was added here imo, even with the new lineup, and that time could have been much better utilized.

As for exclusions, the complete lack of BCASL is still the most glaring one. Obviously there are some songs I wouldn't expect or want, but it was almost a low blow to include nothing at all. Even as one of the bonus tracks would have been just fine by me! At least SC got something, which I appreciated. I get that the length of the BCASL tracks is a big factor, but they had two full shows to work with.

[KevShmev]

My guess is, besides them being great live tunes, War/Test were included because they wanted to include something from 6DOIT, and since none of the longer tunes from Disc 1 were played on the tour, going with War/Test probably just seemed obvious, especially since, again, they are such crowd pleasers.

As for BC&SL, I get that, but there probably was no way to get anything on there.  The longer songs would have taken up too much time and space, and neither of the shorter songs are as good as the ones they did play, except for maybe On the Backs of Angels, but like they weren't gonna play that.

[sfam2112]

My guess is, besides them being great live tunes, War/Test were included because they wanted to include something from 6DOIT, and since none of the longer tunes from Disc 1 were played on the tour

The Great Debate was played early on in the tour, then dropped to include Outcry in both A and B setlists that they had for late 2011.

[KevShmev]

Ah, that's right; I forgot about that.  But didn't JP tell someone that they stopped playing it because it wasn't getting much of a reaction from the crowd?  If so, I can see them not wanting to dedicate nearly 15 minutes to a song they think crowds aren't getting into.

[BlobVanDam]

My guess is, besides them being great live tunes, War/Test were included because they wanted to include something from 6DOIT, and since none of the longer tunes from Disc 1 were played on the tour, going with War/Test probably just seemed obvious, especially since, again, they are such crowd pleasers.

As for BC&SL, I get that, but there probably was no way to get anything on there.  The longer songs would have taken up too much time and space, and neither of the shorter songs are as good as the ones they did play, except for maybe On the Backs of Angels, but like they weren't gonna play that.

Yeah, I mean, I get it, but it's still a criticism for me. Even Wither would have been nice. It's both short, and would have been a better inclusion than a few of the other songs that were included.
The lack of BCASL showed that they weren't going for token inclusions, so I still don't get WIMH/TTTSTA. I would have actually preferred nothing from SDOIT than them, just because that time could have been used for something more fitting, such as something like Wither. I love those sections of SDOIT, but I don't like hearing pieces of SDOIT cut up, and we've already had the same sections done on Budokan just as well, plus Score being the definitive live performance of the song as a whole.
I'm not saying they can't include songs that have been done before, or have to play every song that hasn't been played before, but it should all be taken into consideration when appropriate.

Don't get me wrong, it's still a pretty good setlist, and it's not a big deal, but I still don't think it was the best decision.

[sfam2112]

Yeah, I mean, I get it, but it's still a criticism for me. Even Wither would have been nice. It's both short, and would have been a better inclusion than a few of the other songs that were included.

A side note: It would have been cool if they had done the piano version of Wither with the string section. But that version has probably gone the way of Raw Dog in their memories. 

Don't get me wrong, it's still a pretty good setlist, and it's not a big deal, but I still don't think it was the best decision.

I concur.

[sfam2112]

Edit: Whoops. Double post.

[KevShmev]

Well, when you have this many albums now, it can get difficult getting a song from every album into the set list, especially given the length of their songs.  No, I don't think they were going for a token song from 6DOIT with War/Test; I just meant that maybe they know that that is one of their most-heralded albums with the fans, so they wanted to give us something from it.  That's all.

I'll be curious to see what songs from the back catalogue make the cut on the upcoming tour.  I think it's time for The Mirror/Lie double duo to come back, and In the Name of God is way overdue to be a set list regular again.

[GasparXR]

Well, when you have this many albums now, it can get difficult getting a song from every album into the set list, especially given the length of their songs.  No, I don't think they were going for a token song from 6DOIT with War/Test; I just meant that maybe they know that that is one of their most-heralded albums with the fans, so they wanted to give us something from it.  That's all.

I'll be curious to see what songs from the back catalogue make the cut on the upcoming tour.  I think it's time for The Mirror/Lie double duo to come back, and In the Name of God is way overdue to be a set list regular again.

I'm currently hoping ITNOG to be the final encore song on the upcoming tour, with the IT piano/guitar outro as the intro to it.

[Sycsa]

But after watching the DVD, WIMH/TTTSTA are just so thoroughly redundant and unnecessary, and there was no reason to include them at all. They were already on Budokan, and Score, and nothing new was added here imo, even with the new lineup, and that time could have been much better utilized.

There was something new added here, which is the hilarious sight of JP lip-syncing to JLB's backing vocals ("Waging the war inside my head"), which single-handedly makes this the worst live version of WIMH/TTTSTA. MM's weaker drum sound is also more obvious here than elsewhere, these songs need a stronger tom presence. Crank them up in the mix! I wish they had ditched these and pulled out Blind Faith or *drumroll* TGP instead, the crowd would have gone mad.

[El Barto]

Hell, I'd take TGP over every other song on that setlist.

[BlobVanDam]

Hell, I'd take TGP over every other song on that setlist.

I'd take TGP over my own family.

[theseoafs]

The lip-synching really bugged me.  Why did JP even do that?  Nobody would have minded if they had just played the vocals as a backing track.

[BlobVanDam]

The lip-synching really bugged me.  Why did JP even do that?  Nobody would have minded if they had just played the vocals as a backing track.

Yeah, I agree. I don't mind them using a backing track at all, but having JP lip sync along to what are clearly JLB vocals was a little silly every time I saw it on the DVD.
If it's his own vocal, I don't mind, but otherwise I'd prefer he just left it to play in the background. It made it feel a bit like a music video.

And I would like to hear more of JP's backup vocals live too. I've always thought his voice nicely complements JLB's, and moments like The Silent Man sound really good with his vocal.

[bosk1]

Pretty sure he's not lip synching.

[KevShmev]

He probably was singing, but his voice might have been so low in the mix that we didn't hear it.  Either way, even if he was lip synching, it just looks better to have someone at the mic appearing to be singing when we are hearing a vocal.  Rush does it with Alex Lifeson, and we know JP is big on the WWRD thing, so there ya go.

[BlobVanDam]

Pretty sure he's not lip synching.

So he just happens to sing in JLB's voice most of the time?

[Sycsa]

This is an instance where I miss Mike Portnoy. By his Budokan commentary, he never backtracked or overdubbed any of his backing vocals. They did it great with JP, but now hearing two JLBs singing different parts at the same time (while JP is struggling in front of the mic) puts the whole thing into the uncanny valley.

[KevShmev]

Pretty sure he's not lip synching.

So he just happens to sing in JLB's voice most of the time?

He is likely singing along to JLB's triggered vocal, with his voice either buried in the mix completely or his mic simply not on at that point.

[theseoafs]

Pretty sure he's not lip synching.

So he just happens to sing in JLB's voice most of the time?

He is likely singing along to JLB's triggered vocal, with his voice either buried in the mix completely or his mic simply not on at that point.

Singing along to a vocal track without being audible yourself is what lip-synching is.

[KevShmev]

I always thought of lip synching as moving your lips like you are singing, but you actually aren't.  If JP was singing, that is not really lip synching, at least not by the definition I've always been familiar with.