Outcry multi angle on Live at Luna Park

[Olivierbxl]

First post so hello fellow DT addicts !

Am I the only one who thinks that the Outcry multi angle is a complete failure ?
It's impossible to stay on one instrument and see everything everyone is doing. I was expecting a multi angle like we had on a previous DVD : a camera attached to each band member.
Here, the cameras move all the time, sometimes weirdly. It's obvious it wasn't thought as an instrument multi angle track. It was just assembled to give us several camera views but we thus see the mistakes. We don't hear the director's directions but it's obvious when it happens when a camera suddenly moves back and forth or right and left. And what's up with all the cellphones filming ? In the angles showing JP, the cameramen are filming cellphones very often.

[El Barto]

Haven't seen the DVD, but this was one of my concerns with MP leaving. With his oversight, DT videos were always perfect (artistic decisions of CiM aside). You always saw exactly what you needed to be seeing, and if it required split screen, it was there. You never missed a JM bass lick or a spectacular MP fill. Not sure if they kept BobS around as editor or not, but I haven't been real confident that the quality would remain without MP's attention to detail.

[TheGreatPretender]

Haven't seen the DVD, but this was one of my concerns with MP leaving. With his oversight, DT videos were always perfect (artistic decisions of CiM aside). You always saw exactly what you needed to be seeing, and if it required split screen, it was there. You never missed a JM bass lick or a spectacular MP fill. Not sure if they kept BobS around as editor or not, but I haven't been real confident that the quality would remain without MP's attention to detail.

I'm pretty sure that MP never actually had that much control of WHAT the camera people actually shoot. Apart from saying, "On this song, everyone should shoot focus on one instrument, because that's what we want to do." I mean, had he still been in the band,  I'm sure he could do nothing to prevent the camera people from filming cell phones, which, yes, is one weird ass and stupid thing to do, but at least it's not overly abundant on the rest of the DVD.
But considering that this release was made by Over The Edge Productions, this was their first time making a DT concert DVD, so maybe that's just the kind of artistic direction they choose. I'm not saying that it's good, but in terms of editing, if MP was still in the band, it's still something he would have to work with or work around. It's not like he can be at his kit and still directing the cameras. And if there were no plans of doing a multi-angle version of any song, and it was just an afterthought, well then it's a bonus, isn't it? It's not like we are obligated to get a multi-angle song on every single DT DVD. If it's there, it's not taking away from anything.

[SeRoX]

Filming Outcry is a complete failure. I mentioned in other thread. James unhaded the mic but still kept singing in the video. Angles are somewhat weird in many scenes. Yes, performing is amazing but can't say that for the visual part of the DVD.

[El Barto]

Haven't seen the DVD, but this was one of my concerns with MP leaving. With his oversight, DT videos were always perfect (artistic decisions of CiM aside). You always saw exactly what you needed to be seeing, and if it required split screen, it was there. You never missed a JM bass lick or a spectacular MP fill. Not sure if they kept BobS around as editor or not, but I haven't been real confident that the quality would remain without MP's attention to detail.

I'm pretty sure that MP never actually had that much control of WHAT the camera people actually shoot. Apart from saying, "On this song, everyone should shoot focus on one instrument, because that's what we want to do." I mean, had he still been in the band,  I'm sure he could do nothing to prevent the camera people from filming cell phones, which, yes, is one weird ass and stupid thing to do, but at least it's not overly abundant on the rest of the DVD.
But considering that this release was made by Over The Edge Productions, this was their first time making a DT concert DVD, so maybe that's just the kind of artistic direction they choose. I'm not saying that it's good, but in terms of editing, if MP was still in the band, it's still something he would have to work with or work around. It's not like he can be at his kit and still directing the cameras. And if there were no plans of doing a multi-angle version of any song, and it was just an afterthought, well then it's a bonus, isn't it? It's not like we are obligated to get a multi-angle song on every single DT DVD. If it's there, it's not taking away from anything.

He doesn't control what gets filmed, but they have more than one camera, and multiple cameras equals more coverage. If the best footage they had at any given point was of people with cellphones (again, I haven't seen this yet), then there are problems much worse than the editing/direction.

Dunno if BobS still posts here or not, but I'd be real curious to to know how the line is drawn between the editor and the director when producing these things. What I do know is that in the older releases, even the low budget affairs like LTE, or shows that were filmed as an afterthought (Romavarium), you still get the best available footage.

[TheGreatPretender]

He doesn't control what gets filmed, but they have more than one camera, and multiple cameras equals more coverage. If the best footage they had at any given point was of people with cellphones (again, I haven't seen this yet), then there are problems much worse than the editing/direction.

I think the comment about filming the cell phone footage was directed at one particular camera man that seemed to do that more prevalently as seen in the Outcry Multi-angle version. The actual, edited concert, there were only one or two moments where they actually showed an audience member's camera screen and that was only for a couple of seconds, if that, but that's it.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

Haven't seen the DVD, but this was one of my concerns with MP leaving. With his oversight, DT videos were always perfect (artistic decisions of CiM aside). You always saw exactly what you needed to be seeing, and if it required split screen, it was there. You never missed a JM bass lick or a spectacular MP fill. Not sure if they kept BobS around as editor or not, but I haven't been real confident that the quality would remain without MP's attention to detail.

I'm pretty sure that MP never actually had that much control of WHAT the camera people actually shoot. Apart from saying, "On this song, everyone should shoot focus on one instrument, because that's what we want to do." I mean, had he still been in the band,  I'm sure he could do nothing to prevent the camera people from filming cell phones, which, yes, is one weird ass and stupid thing to do, but at least it's not overly abundant on the rest of the DVD.
But considering that this release was made by Over The Edge Productions, this was their first time making a DT concert DVD, so maybe that's just the kind of artistic direction they choose. I'm not saying that it's good, but in terms of editing, if MP was still in the band, it's still something he would have to work with or work around. It's not like he can be at his kit and still directing the cameras. And if there were no plans of doing a multi-angle version of any song, and it was just an afterthought, well then it's a bonus, isn't it? It's not like we are obligated to get a multi-angle song on every single DT DVD. If it's there, it's not taking away from anything.

He doesn't control what gets filmed, but they have more than one camera, and multiple cameras equals more coverage. If the best footage they had at any given point was of people with cellphones (again, I haven't seen this yet), then there are problems much worse than the editing/direction.

Dunno if BobS still posts here or not, but I'd be real curious to to know how the line is drawn between the editor and the director when producing these things. What I do know is that in the older releases, even the low budget affairs like LTE, or shows that were filmed as an afterthought (Romavarium), you still get the best available footage.

Even if I assumed the DVD would have been better with MP in the band, it's a small price to pay relative to superior musicianship and drumming over the course of the rest of the band's life.

[Madman Shepherd]

The filming style of this DVD is much different than all of the other DVDs.  Its more flashy and more fluid in movement.  In order to get shots that focus JUST on each band member they would have had to change the filming style for just that one song. 

As it stands, each camera is primarily focused on one band member although it does deviate at times so you won't get one focused on a member 100% of the time.  More like 85-90%.  I think its cool and have no real gripes about it.  In fact, at times the cameras obviously are moving to get in a new place so they can get a better shot.  That actually gives you insight of how different the style is from previous releases.

Bottom line, I find nothing majorly wrong with it and think its a cool addition. 

[TheGreatPretender]

Even if I assumed the DVD would have been better with MP in the band, it's a small price to pay relative to superior musicianship and drumming over the course of the rest of the band's life.

It's a rare occasion, but I really agree with you on this. Honestly, it's just getting a little tiresome these days when mentioning every little thing that people don't like concering DT, all I seem to hear is, "Well, if MP was still in the band, this wouldn't be like this, and it would all be better." 

[BlobVanDam]

Lets keep in mind this is DT's first DVD without MP, so in many ways they're still adapting to the new hierarchy of getting things done, and from what I've heard so far (my copy of LALP is still in the mail), it sounds like they did a great job, even if there are some minor flaws. And they'll probably learn from all of this feedback.

Just as mistakes weren't all MP's fault when he was in the band, any mistake they make now is not automatically due to not having MP either. Some things are always going to be out of the band's control, especially with the scope of a live DVD/BR.

It appears that the minor sync issues might be due to them needing to cut in footage from the other show due to video concerns. Out of their control. JLB's vocals apparently sound overly breathy in places. If that's how it was set up and recorded on the night, out of their control. Etc.

Luckily, I wouldn't have been watching the Outcry multi-angle anyway (since I don't like the song, and it's only on the BR anyway). That still leaves about 3 hours of concert footage to enjoy.

[El Barto]

Even if I assumed the DVD would have been better with MP in the band, it's a small price to pay relative to superior musicianship and drumming over the course of the rest of the band's life.

It's a rare occasion, but I really agree with you on this. Honestly, it's just getting a little tiresome these days when mentioning every little thing that people don't like concering DT, all I seem to hear is, "Well, if MP was still in the band, this wouldn't be like this, and it would all be better." 

I don't recall anybody saying that here. I'm the only one that brought up MP, and all I said was that I was concerned that the quality of live video releases might take a hit with him gone. Since I haven't seen the DVD and don't know when I will, I don't know if that's the case or not so I'm not making any judgements here. What I do know is that with the exception of CiM, and the goofy graphics in LSfNY, DT's concert DVD's are incredibly well received, so there's a pretty high bar set at this point.

[TheGreatPretender]

I don't recall anybody saying that here. I'm the only one that brought up MP, and all I said was that I was concerned that the quality of live video releases might take a hit with him gone. Since I haven't seen the DVD and don't know when I will, I don't know if that's the case or not so I'm not making any judgements here. What I do know is that with the exception of CiM, and the goofy graphics in LSfNY, DT's concert DVD's are incredibly well received, so there's a pretty high bar set at this point.

But why should it take a hit? It's not like with MP gone, JP and JR are editing these DVDs together on Windows Movie Maker in their basements. They hired a professional company to take care of filming and editing it, a company that's done plenty of work with all sorts of musicians and that DT already had experience in working with on the Drummer Auditions documentary. The fact that a multi-angle version of Outcry may have been an afterthought and as such wasn't filmed the best way, doesn't change the fact that the actual concert was very well shot and edited.

[bobs23]

Haven't seen the DVD, but this was one of my concerns with MP leaving. With his oversight, DT videos were always perfect (artistic decisions of CiM aside). You always saw exactly what you needed to be seeing, and if it required split screen, it was there. You never missed a JM bass lick or a spectacular MP fill. Not sure if they kept BobS around as editor or not, but I haven't been real confident that the quality would remain without MP's attention to detail.

I'm pretty sure that MP never actually had that much control of WHAT the camera people actually shoot. Apart from saying, "On this song, everyone should shoot focus on one instrument, because that's what we want to do." I mean, had he still been in the band,  I'm sure he could do nothing to prevent the camera people from filming cell phones, which, yes, is one weird ass and stupid thing to do, but at least it's not overly abundant on the rest of the DVD.
But considering that this release was made by Over The Edge Productions, this was their first time making a DT concert DVD, so maybe that's just the kind of artistic direction they choose. I'm not saying that it's good, but in terms of editing, if MP was still in the band, it's still something he would have to work with or work around. It's not like he can be at his kit and still directing the cameras. And if there were no plans of doing a multi-angle version of any song, and it was just an afterthought, well then it's a bonus, isn't it? It's not like we are obligated to get a multi-angle song on every single DT DVD. If it's there, it's not taking away from anything.

He doesn't control what gets filmed, but they have more than one camera, and multiple cameras equals more coverage. If the best footage they had at any given point was of people with cellphones (again, I haven't seen this yet), then there are problems much worse than the editing/direction.

Dunno if BobS still posts here or not, but I'd be real curious to to know how the line is drawn between the editor and the director when producing these things. What I do know is that in the older releases, even the low budget affairs like LTE, or shows that were filmed as an afterthought (Romavarium), you still get the best available footage.

On LaB and Score, MP did dictate how the shows were to be shot. On all the shoots we would watch at least 4 shows prior and time out each song for the shoot so the camera ops knew where to be at each moment. He wanted different "feelings" for each show. LaB had a more theatrical look, Score was more intimate. The directorial relationship was very close with editing. When we worked together, I would do the first cut and send that to him along with a video reference of all the cameras. If he didn't like what he saw in the first cut he would say to use a different camera. With DT, before he did a final sign off, he came in a viewed in person.
I can say with fair confidence that MP was the only member of the band that had real knowledge of the video process, both of production and post. With him even the menus and the function was scrutinized. I don't know this for fact, but I am going to guess that for this shoot there was band involvement, but the present members had to rely more on the video guys for the vision.
Just to be clear, I am not advocating one way or the other for MP. Just giving an explanation of how the process happened in the past.

[KevShmev]

Haven't seen the DVD, but this was one of my concerns with MP leaving. With his oversight, DT videos were always perfect (artistic decisions of CiM aside). You always saw exactly what you needed to be seeing, and if it required split screen, it was there. You never missed a JM bass lick or a spectacular MP fill. Not sure if they kept BobS around as editor or not, but I haven't been real confident that the quality would remain without MP's attention to detail.

I can't agree with that.  I still can't watch Live Scenes from New York without being totally disappointed at how we barely see John Myung during Through Her Eyes.  His fretless work in that tune was one of the highlights of both M:2000 shows we saw, and to have that basically ignored on the live video of the tour was a travesty.

[TAC]

I agree Kev. It wasn't always perfect, but I hear what Bart is saying.
But I think Bart's concerns don't rear themselves on this DVD. I found all of the shots fairly spot on for what was being played. My only complaint was that we didn't really see MM during the tickle section of LNF.

[El Barto]

Haven't seen the DVD, but this was one of my concerns with MP leaving. With his oversight, DT videos were always perfect (artistic decisions of CiM aside). You always saw exactly what you needed to be seeing, and if it required split screen, it was there. You never missed a JM bass lick or a spectacular MP fill. Not sure if they kept BobS around as editor or not, but I haven't been real confident that the quality would remain without MP's attention to detail.

I'm pretty sure that MP never actually had that much control of WHAT the camera people actually shoot. Apart from saying, "On this song, everyone should shoot focus on one instrument, because that's what we want to do." I mean, had he still been in the band,  I'm sure he could do nothing to prevent the camera people from filming cell phones, which, yes, is one weird ass and stupid thing to do, but at least it's not overly abundant on the rest of the DVD.
But considering that this release was made by Over The Edge Productions, this was their first time making a DT concert DVD, so maybe that's just the kind of artistic direction they choose. I'm not saying that it's good, but in terms of editing, if MP was still in the band, it's still something he would have to work with or work around. It's not like he can be at his kit and still directing the cameras. And if there were no plans of doing a multi-angle version of any song, and it was just an afterthought, well then it's a bonus, isn't it? It's not like we are obligated to get a multi-angle song on every single DT DVD. If it's there, it's not taking away from anything.

He doesn't control what gets filmed, but they have more than one camera, and multiple cameras equals more coverage. If the best footage they had at any given point was of people with cellphones (again, I haven't seen this yet), then there are problems much worse than the editing/direction.

Dunno if BobS still posts here or not, but I'd be real curious to to know how the line is drawn between the editor and the director when producing these things. What I do know is that in the older releases, even the low budget affairs like LTE, or shows that were filmed as an afterthought (Romavarium), you still get the best available footage.

On LaB and Score, MP did dictate how the shows were to be shot. On all the shoots we would watch at least 4 shows prior and time out each song for the shoot so the camera ops knew where to be at each moment. He wanted different "feelings" for each show. LaB had a more theatrical look, Score was more intimate. The directorial relationship was very close with editing. When we worked together, I would do the first cut and send that to him along with a video reference of all the cameras. If he didn't like what he saw in the first cut he would say to use a different camera. With DT, before he did a final sign off, he came in a viewed in person.
I can say with fair confidence that MP was the only member of the band that had real knowledge of the video process, both of production and post. With him even the menus and the function was scrutinized. I don't know this for fact, but I am going to guess that for this shoot there was band involvement, but the present members had to rely more on the video guys for the vision.
Just to be clear, I am not advocating one way or the other for MP. Just giving an explanation of how the process happened in the past.

Great info. Thanks. 

I agree Kev. It wasn't always perfect, but I hear what Bart is saying.
But I think Bart's concerns don't rear themselves on this DVD. I found all of the shots fairly spot on for what was being played. My only complaint was that we didn't really see MM during the tickle section of LNF.

If it's well done I'll be happy to see it. I'm only going by the fact that you can tell when some videos are directed/edited by people familiar with the band, the music and the songs (LaB) and when others are shot by people who don't have a clue (Bucharest, shot for television). Like I said, given MP's attention to detail I'm not expecting the same result from an outside company, but I'll be happy to be mistaken if that's the case.

[TAC]

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised, Bart. Mike Leonard seems very familiar with the music, and JP commented how great the edits were on the Google+ interview.

[slycordinator]

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised, Bart. Mike Leonard seems very familiar with the music, and JP commented how great the edits were on the Google+ interview.

On the other hand, in an interview where they're hyping the release, they're a little unlikely to say "Those edits were shit!" 

[TAC]

Even taking that into account, JP seemed pretty genuine, PLUS, I've watched the DVD.

[El Barto]

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised, Bart. Mike Leonard seems very familiar with the music, and JP commented how great the edits were on the Google+ interview.

Great. I'll probably check the thing out Wednesday at work. I will point out that it's somewhat telling that JP is crediting somebody else with how great the editing was, which makes it pretty clear that he didn't have a very active role in it. That's the attention to detail that I was praising MP for, and one of the things I'll miss.

[TAC]

We'll, I'm sure JP had a vision of what he wanted, and is obviously pleased with the result. MP was certainly hands on. I'm definitely with you on your overall point though.

Let me know what you think once you've seen it.

[TheGreatPretender]

Great. I'll probably check the thing out Wednesday at work. I will point out that it's somewhat telling that JP is crediting somebody else with how great the editing was, which makes it pretty clear that he didn't have a very active role in it. That's the attention to detail that I was praising MP for, and one of the things I'll miss.

That kind of attention to detail is useful when the band is relatively new, and are dealing with lower budget companies, as well as a label who doesn't give a damn about them. So basically, it was pretty essential in the 90's, when the band had to really push to get new material out and essentially promote themselves. But these days, DT are established, respected and well known enough that not only can they hire reputable companies for things like DVDs, and have enough live releases already to have plenty of reference material.

Bottom line is that live at Luna Park turned out great without MP, and for all the little flaws it does have, no one can say with absolute certainty that had MP been around to oversee the editing process himself, those flaws wouldn't be there.

[KevShmev]

Not to mention that God only knows what the set list would have been, given his overthinking when it came to not wanting to put songs that had already been on previous live DVDs.  Granted, that worked well at times, but sometimes he overthought it and the set list suffered as a result (see: the Score set list, which is a poor representation of the band considering it was a 20th anniversary set list, unless someone really thinks celebrating the band's 20th by playing The Answer Lies Within and I Walk Beside You, but not playing Take the Time or Learning to Live, was a good idea).

[theseoafs]

(see: the Score set list, which is a poor representation of the band considering it was a 20th anniversary set list, unless someone really thinks celebrating the band's 20th by playing The Answer Lies Within and I Walk Beside You, but not playing Take the Time or Learning to Live, was a good idea).

You're upset that the band played songs from the album they were touring in support of at the Score show?

[KevShmev]

I didn't say I was upset; I just thought they were poor choices for a set list that was celebrating the band's 20 years.  I remember getting home that night, looking online to see what the anniversary set list, seeing it and thinking, "That is what they played?"  The poor set list is the reason I have never bought the Score DVD (that was the first DT DVD I did not buy).

[theseoafs]

Then you're missing out on the best concert DVD DT's ever released.  When you consider the various goals Score's setlist was trying to accomplish -- to have at least one song from every DT album, a representative portion of the Octavarium album, and a set full of songs that would be accompanied by an orchestra, all without being having too many songs that had already been captured on DVD -- the setlist actually works tremendously well.

[KevShmev]

I feel that all of those things could have been accomplished by having a much different and far better set list.  I get that the band should never tailor a set list to the likings of any one fan, obviously, but for me personally, if I had to rank my top 30 DT songs (counting the first eight albums only), only three made that set list.  That is a major contrast to every other DT DVD, most of which are filled with favorites of mine.  Like I said, the Score set list just isn't for me, considering my favorites and whatnot.

And technically, Score doesn't have anything from the Falling into Infinity CD.

[TAC]

I didn't say I was upset; I just thought they were poor choices for a set list that was celebrating the band's 20 years.  I remember getting home that night, looking online to see what the anniversary set list, seeing it and thinking, "That is what they played?"  The poor set list is the reason I have never bought the Score DVD (that was the first DT DVD I did not buy).

There are tons of great songs on Score. I mean great versions of Afterlife, Innocence Faded and Another Won, plus Raise The Knife!
Octavarium is incredible on this as is Metropolis.
Get the DVD, man! The Score So Far documentary is great as well.

[theseoafs]

Honestly, I'm still reeling over the fact that Kev doesn't have the Score DVD.  Not liking the setlist is one thing, but that means either that Kev has never seen Score, or that he's seen Score but didn't think it would be a good addition to his DT collection.  Both options are, as a DT fan, mind-blowing.

[Sycsa]

The Score So Far documentary is great as well.

Indeed, it was really informative: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smOISpr1rEA

[KevShmev]

I have seen it; my older brother is a big DT fan, too, so I have seen both Score and Chaos in Motion (neither of which I bought) at his house.  Considering I don't watch live DVDs as much as I used to, I am fine with now only having Live in Tokyo, 5 Years in a Livetime, LSFNY, the Bucharest official bootleg DVD and the new one.  Five live DT DVDs or Blu-rays is enough.

[?]

And technically, Score doesn't have anything from the Falling into Infinity CD.

Yeah, and on the top of that they played a 42-minute "song" from Six Degrees while TOT is represented with a 3-minute piece. Uneven, eh? (I know they played most of TOT on Budokan, but still...)

[rumborak]

I don't find myself listening to Score much, mostly because the orchestra is so out of tune it's painful to listen to.

[El Barto]

Great. I'll probably check the thing out Wednesday at work. I will point out that it's somewhat telling that JP is crediting somebody else with how great the editing was, which makes it pretty clear that he didn't have a very active role in it. That's the attention to detail that I was praising MP for, and one of the things I'll miss.

That kind of attention to detail is useful when the band is relatively new, and are dealing with lower budget companies, as well as a label who doesn't give a damn about them. So basically, it was pretty essential in the 90's, when the band had to really push to get new material out and essentially promote themselves. But these days, DT are established, respected and well known enough that not only can they hire reputable companies for things like DVDs, and have enough live releases already to have plenty of reference material.

That's remarkably short-sighted. Just because added attention to detail isn't necessarily required doesn't mean that it isn't beneficial. I'm not saying that it is the case, but what you're suggesting is that the band is in a situation now where they can dump a project off to someone else and put out a product that's good enough. If that were the case (and it's probably not), then I'd be pretty damned offended. All I'm saying is that MP's attention to detail and desire to put out the best possible product is something that people should appreciate.


As for Score, I probably wouldn't have bought it either except that I wanted a souvenir since I was at the show. I don't think the orchestra adds much and I wasn't crazy about the setlist. Still, it's a fine example of how a concert DVD should be done.

[KevShmev]

For the record, I do think that Portnoy usually did a really good job with the set lists.  I just think he overthought it at times and got too obsessed with not having repeats instead of having the best set list possible, and I think Score is a good example of this.