Have DT lost their "dark side"?

[Thoughtspart3]

LOL    You guys are killing me with this cookie monster stuff.  ME WANT COOKIE! 

[AngelBack]

Dark and heavy are certainly not the same thing.  I listen to a lot of death metal and it is waaayyyy dark, lyrically and musically.  I think the push toward heavy was largely MPs influence and that what we have on the last two albums is what JP/JR really enjoy most.  A mix of heavy and melodic, beauty and power.  Don't see them putting out another Honor thy Father (which I love BTW).  I am loving what they are doing and I believe it is just a little more mature and reflective of who DT is at this point in time.

[TheAtliator]

DT12 is dark as hell during some parts.

[jayvee3]

I think they have always had some darker sounding stuff - on from songs from Awake, all the way through to DT. Even songs like Vacant or Disappear can be cosidered 'dark', in tone and emotion. What I think they have lost (and thank god), are the MP growls that he seemed to want to add in more and more as albums progressed. Some of it worked, but most of the time, it was pretty ordinary. I think the last two albums have certainly had some darker moments, but balanced them perfectly amongst everything else that makes DT who they are..

[adamack]

Ok guys, maybe it is just me and maybe "disturbing" was the wrong word to use. I wanted just to point out that in my opinion maybe after MP left, the band could have decided to not explore some dark atmospheres that you could find in ToT for example and in most of the songs of the AA saga. Again, if it is just my opinion, no problem.. it is just that I noticed the contrast between the atmosphere of DT12 (that I love btw) and some of  old DT songs mostly written by MP...

I know exactly what you mean man. I don't see why people were acting like you are crazy, geez.

The hard, and darker sound of ToT, songs like Fatal Tragedy, ITPOE Part 2, and songs from Awake (The Mirror, Voices, etc.), and even Misunderstood (moreso musically than lyrically) all contrast in a sense with the themes on the previous 2 albums.

I feel that ADToE and DT12 both had a very spiritual, optimistic overtone. Songs about faith, hope, and the more beautiful sides of life made up the bulk of these albums. Sure, there is BtV, but the 2 albums are overwhelmingly optimistic.

I don't know if I'd say that they "lost" their darker side. I'd probably say that they just chose to focus these past 2 albums in an overall optimistic light, possibly due to the departure of MP. They've been through the equivalent of a life-changing experience in a band sense, and I think that may have had a bit to do with their choice to focus on the positive things in life. Just a theory.

[7StringedBeast]

I think ToT and Mirror/Lie are the only DT songs that are kind of aggressive or angry sounding.  And not even everything on ToT is like that. 

I personally love the Mirror because of the pure emotion in the lyrics and their delivery. 

"Hypocrite, how could you be so cruel, and expect my faith in return"

That is a great line, and it's angry.  I don't they have had that kind of feelings in their songs for a long time.

[?]

ME WANT COOKIE

DUNN DUNN DUNNDUNN

Cookie Monster invented the chugga riff.

[Ħ]

To all those saying DT isn't dark, just listen to In The Name of God.

[Dark Castle]

To all those saying DT isn't dark, just listen to In The Name of God.

I don't see people saying they can't be dark, but rather, that they were never disturbing to begin with.

[BlackInk]

I'm not sure what everyone thinks when they think "dark side", but for me it doesn't at all mean "evil" or "heavy". DT12 is for me a large step away from their dark side because it's so nice and kind sounding most of the time. It's almost naive, musically.

[mikidream]

Angry.

Angry is the word we're all looking for here.  And yes, I believe MP brought an angry-sounding element some of the time, because it seems to be gone now.

I know exactly what you mean man. I don't see why people were acting like you are crazy, geez.

The hard, and darker sound of ToT, songs like Fatal Tragedy, ITPOE Part 2, and songs from Awake (The Mirror, Voices, etc.), and even Misunderstood (moreso musically than lyrically) all contrast in a sense with the themes on the previous 2 albums.

I feel that ADToE and DT12 both had a very spiritual, optimistic overtone. Songs about faith, hope, and the more beautiful sides of life made up the bulk of these albums. Sure, there is BtV, but the 2 albums are overwhelmingly optimistic.

Yes thank you guys that's exactly what I meant... I think that the main problem is that I didn't know exactly how to express the concept, therefore I tried to use different adjectives...but some of them were probably misleading...

I think ToT and Mirror/Lie are the only DT songs that are kind of aggressive or angry sounding.  And not even everything on ToT is like that. 

I personally love the Mirror because of the pure emotion in the lyrics and their delivery. 

"Hypocrite, how could you be so cruel, and expect my faith in return"

That is a great line, and it's angry.  I don't they have had that kind of feelings in their songs for a long time.

I don't agree that these are the only DT songs where you can find this feelings but... YES, this is, more or less, what I wanted to say 

[wolfking]

Yesterday I was watching some videos on YouTube and I bumped into one of the ones where you can listen to all the songs of the AA saga together... let's clarify it, this is not a discussion pro or against Portnoy... but while I was listening to these songs I thought that they where dark, angry and harsh...so my question is: do you think that DT have lost their dark side? The last two albums contain heavy songs and some of them explored difficult emotions and difficult states of mind (as TEI for example) but... I don't know... in my opinion they are not so dark and so "disturbing" as some old songs are, what do you think?

Well, I actually thought DT12 was the band going back to a more darker sound.  Even the more ballad type songs incorporate some insanely heavy moments.  I think overall it's got some of the heaviest stuff they have ever done.

DT have never really been dark or disturbing.

[7StringedBeast]

Oh by ToT in my post I mean the album Train of Thought not the song Trial of Tears.

[Ruba]

in my opinion they are not so dark and so "disturbing" as some old songs are, what do you think?

I have no idea what you're talking about.  They've never had any disturbing songs.

I think Misunderstood and Disappear are a bit disturbing.

Back to topic: the last two albums are definately the least dark ones since FII. I usually like their heavier and darker stuff, so I'll hope they will bring some darkness back to the next album. DT12 has some pretty dark lyrics however.

[Nearmyth]

To all those saying DT isn't dark, just listen to In The Name of God.

There's a difference between "dark", and simply angry or aggressiveness. I do think the latter two are what we're looking for here.

Voices is dark. The Mirror is dark. Misunderstood is dark. Repentance is dark. Just a few examples. I think for a song to be "dark", it has to also have a dark subject.

TOT is very aggressive and angry, but the only song I'd consider dark on that record is This Dying Soul. The others have a more "hell yeah badass chuggah chuggah riff angry" feel.

[Zook]

The fact that they have Take The Time on the Dark Side CD of Greatest Hit means they don't have a dark side. Heavy side, but dark isn't the right descriptor.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

wasteland

[Cable]

Wow, dark DT thread and no mention (I think) of TDEN and ITPOE? That album in general dealt with topics that were a little more dark.

Yes about the topic, and I'm glad; TDEN lyrics were bad I feel, as was most of SCs lyrics that were purposely fantasy and dark per JP himself. But overall DTs dark is not super dark, no. But their last albums with MP were certainly darker as a whole than earlier stuff as a whole.

[Daso]

There were certainly some moments that captured both the dark and angry flows at the same time, like ANTR's intro or pretty much every other moment with heavy/fast riffs (Constant Motion definitelly sounds angry and there is something vaguely dark to it) and/or symphonic, almost gothic-like strings/choirs, which are the feature I capture the most out of BC&SL. At times certain wackiness (like JR's xylophone [or something like that] part in Endless Sacrifice) can sound eerie, which may provoke the "evil" feeling in a way.

It was kind of in there with Outcry, and then there's that part in Enigma Machine which sounds like it was literally left out of BC&SL and placed in DT12,. Not too much more to mention, though, so perhaps they are picking a different direction creatively.

As in what I think about it, I think it's great they leave it out. There were some great moments of it, others just felt pushed into the music, but I've had enough of it. I don't really see it as something DT's music needs.  I wouldn't even include it in a description of their music. They have other great angles which I want to hear more often that they have in both ADToE and DT12 (like bass-drum backing a guitar solo for the latter). I think part of the reason why I see BC&SL as one of their weakest (if not their weakest) album is that one. Most of the time it felt like they were losing their essence, heading into another direction which didn't really fit them musically or, to say it differently, that I wasn't looking for in their music (just to place the blame on myself because they're free to do what they want as musicians  ).

[jayvee3]

Wow, dark DT thread and no mention (I think) of TDEN and ITPOE? That album in general dealt with topics that were a little more dark.

Like Vampires and general creatures of the night? 

[Ħ]

To all those saying DT isn't dark, just listen to In The Name of God.

There's a difference between "dark", and simply angry or aggressiveness. I do think the latter two are what we're looking for here.

Voices is dark. The Mirror is dark. Misunderstood is dark. Repentance is dark. Just a few examples. I think for a song to be "dark", it has to also have a dark subject.

TOT is very aggressive and angry, but the only song I'd consider dark on that record is This Dying Soul. The others have a more "hell yeah badass chuggah chuggah riff angry" feel.

ITNOG is dark in exactly the way you describe.

[sylvinception]

By "dark side", if you referred to BC&SL and SC, well I must say I'm really glad they lost their dark side.
Otherwise, I never really saw a "dark side" in their previous works, exept on ToT.

[me7]

By "dark side", if you referred to BC&SL and SC, well I must say I'm really glad they lost their dark side.
Otherwise, I never really saw a "dark side" in their previous works, exept on ToT.

Don't you think that songs like The Mirror/Lie are absent on ADTOE and DT12?

[hefdaddy42]

By "dark side", if you referred to BC&SL and SC, well I must say I'm really glad they lost their dark side.
Otherwise, I never really saw a "dark side" in their previous works, exept on ToT.

Don't you think that songs like The Mirror/Lie are absent on ADTOE and DT12?

They were also absent on I&W and FII.  It's not a big deal, nothing they do has been lost.

[mikidream]

By "dark side", if you referred to BC&SL and SC, well I must say I'm really glad they lost their dark side.
Otherwise, I never really saw a "dark side" in their previous works, exept on ToT.

Don't you think that songs like The Mirror/Lie are absent on ADTOE and DT12?

when I wrote the expression "dark side" I was thinking about songs as the mirror/lie or also this dying soul or the glass prison... it is clear now that everyone has different ideas about the concept of "dark side". But when I listen to a song like the mirror or to some songs of the AA saga I can't help noticing that the atmosphere is completely different compared especially to the last two albums... 

[sylvinception]

Ok I understand what you mean.

But as long as they don't "remake" SC or BC&SL, that's ok for me!!

[Super Dude]

If anything, they lost their lighter side. They used to be able to write good ole fashioned rock. When did that go out the window?

[Zook]

Yeah, I'm tired of this hip hop crap they've been doing on the last few albums.

[kirksnosehair]

I believe that MP definitely had an influence on the tone of some of Dream Theater's music.  The songs in the AA saga, for example, are all driven by heavy lyrical references to alcoholism and recovery, certainly not uplifting material.  And for the most part, those songs are all minor key, riff-oriented, very guitar-driven songs.  "Repentance" is different, but you know what I mean.


I can see how some listeners would hear a lot of that material as "dark" because we all listen to music from our own perspective and to someone who hasn't listened to a lot of, say, Cannibal Corpse, or maybe Life of Agony (or other black-metal/doom type stuff) it's certainly plausible for them to hear a tune like "The Root of All Evil" and think it sounds "dark."


With that said, I think they're probably still very capable of creating that kind of vibe but they've probably just decided to explore some different directions with tone in the last couple of albums.

[me7]

As someone pointed out, we (who agree with the OP) don't mean darkness in the way of doom metal, but rather the aggressiveness, the anger and the despair  that MP's influence brought to the table. The Mirror/Lie is far from doom or black metal but it still sounds tormented in a way. The same goes for the AA saga and most of ToT. I really appreciated this side of DT, especially how Awake houses both, angry AND uplifting music. The past two albums have been a bit too dominated by uplifting IMO, bring back the dynamics!

[jonnybaxy]

I'd say they are heading down the path of prog rock rather than prog metal now, I do agree they have lost some touch with their heavier 'darker' riffs and songs.

[Zook]

I'd rather they became Prog Rock than Cock Rock.

[BlobVanDam]

I think DT12 is definitely metal, not what I'd call rock. Lots of heavy riffing, and even JP's lowest tunings. There's plenty of balance between the metal, and the lighter, more optimistic stuff though.

[mikidream]

As someone pointed out, we (who agree with the OP) don't mean darkness in the way of doom metal, but rather the aggressiveness, the anger and the despair  that MP's influence brought to the table. The Mirror/Lie is far from doom or black metal but it still sounds tormented in a way. The same goes for the AA saga and most of ToT. I really appreciated this side of DT, especially how Awake houses both, angry AND uplifting music. The past two albums have been a bit too dominated by uplifting IMO, bring back the dynamics!

[Super Dude]

Yeah, I'm tired of this hip hop crap they've been doing on the last few albums.

Although I guess it's better than KrotchRaut.