What are your thoughts on DT12?

[Prog Snob]

So you slight a whole CD based on a minutes worth of music?   Should the most well known and popular band in progressive metal NOT be experimental?   

Oh absolutely not! Let me restate that I enjoy SFAM much more than DT12 overall.  But my point is that I enjoy JR's playing more on DT12 than SFAM, with BTL's solo being an example as to why I would say that.  There are no moments on DT12 of JR's playing that I dislike (feel free to point some out, this is off the top of head) and I cannot say the same for SFAM.

We have different tastes then.  While I do love Jordan's simpler more melodic musical passages, it's his penchant for experimentation and virtuosity that make him stand out.

[Joshin U]

So you slight a whole CD based on a minutes worth of music?   Should the most well known and popular band in progressive metal NOT be experimental?   

Oh absolutely not! Let me restate that I enjoy SFAM much more than DT12 overall.  But my point is that I enjoy JR's playing more on DT12 than SFAM, with BTL's solo being an example as to why I would say that.  There are no moments on DT12 of JR's playing that I dislike (feel free to point some out, this is off the top of head) and I cannot say the same for SFAM.

We have different tastes then.  While I do love Jordan's simpler more melodic musical passages, it's his penchant for experimentation and virtuosity that make him stand out.

Fair enough! I guess as a band member, I love JR and the virtuosity of his input, but when he starts getting "creative" with patches and noises, he begins to alienate me.  Personal tastes, and all that. 

[Zook]

BTL's instrumental section is my favorite part of the whole album.

[Nearmyth]

BTL's instrumental section is my favorite part of the whole album.

[Lucien]

Eh, sometimes I think DT need to forget everything they've done in the past, and write without thinking about their past works.

"Dream Theater" isn't exactly a name that registers to me as a metal band. They should try some more ambient works a la the intro of Trial of Tears and Someone Like Him. How about some jazz? Obviously they shouldn't make an album each of these styles, but I would love to see them actually experiment.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

I agree with that, mostly. I mean, I love mostly everything DT has put out, and even if they continue to release albums with their same recent style, I'm 90% sure I'm going to dig it.

That said, it would be really cool for them to think outside of the box a little, try something new. They don't even have to abandon metal entirely, or even prog metal. There's all sorts of ways to play that kind of music.

Still, though, at this point, I don't really think DT have any more "drastic" changes coming. They're pretty comfortable where they are, and I don't see that changing.

[Bolsters]

Still, though, at this point, I don't really think DT have any more "drastic" changes coming. They're pretty comfortable where they are, and I don't see that changing.

This, unfortunately.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Again, though, there's nothing really wrong (as far as I'm concerned) with knowing your style, and doing it well.

Arjen Lucassen is another example of this (although I know a number of people here don't care for him, I love basically everything he does).

[TheGreatPretender]

I definitely don't want to hear DT change their style entirely. They've always been progressive metal, but they've had a vast variety of styles to their music and different albums. The problem is that it's all behind them now. It's hard trying to be experimental, when they can take anything and say, "Well, we've already done that in this one song."

Eh, sometimes I think DT need to forget everything they've done in the past, and write without thinking about their past works.
They should try some more ambient works a la the intro of Trial of Tears and Someone Like Him. How about some jazz? Obviously they shouldn't make an album each of these styles, but I would love to see them actually experiment.

Which is why it's almost impossible for them to do something different WITHOUT looking at their past works. Because if they want to do something more ambient, well, they can look at their past works and say, "But we've already done that with Octavarium, Trial of Tears," etc.

Sure, they could just go off into a completely different direction all together, but I really wouldn't want that. For all the respect that Led Zeppelin deserve, I really wouldn't want DT to have an album that's filled with D'yer Mak'er and stuff like pretty much doesn't resemble rock music at all. At the end of the day, they're still a metal band, and I think it's unreasonable to expect them to suddenly do something completely different, just because they're amazing musicians and have a unique style that's never conformed with the typical popular metal subgenres.

[Kotowboy]

No it's not. Even amazing bands can slip by the occasional stinker, even DT.

Says the guy who hates second half of Awake.

Point proven. DT have some stinkers!

...Eh. I can't listen to Awake after the first three songs.

[BlobVanDam]

No it's not. Even amazing bands can slip by the occasional stinker, even DT.

Says the guy who hates second half of Awake.

Point proven. DT have some stinkers!

...Eh. I can't listen to Awake after the first three songs.

It's somewhat ironic given my opinion of Awake, that I seem to enjoy CIAW and IF a lot more than the average DTFer.

[Joshin U]

That is rather funny, given that Awake in my favorite album and those are literally my least 2 favorite songs on it. 

[BlobVanDam]

That is rather funny, given that Awake in my favorite album and those are literally my least 2 favorite songs on it. 

Exactly what I'm saying! I generally seem to like the shorter and more accessible tracks more than the prog fans do. And then I like some of the longer and proggy stuff a lot less than the prog fans do. Different strokes.

[bl5150]

That is rather funny, given that Awake in my favorite album and those are literally my least 2 favorite songs on it. 

Exactly what I'm saying! I generally seem to like the shorter and more accessible tracks more than the prog fans do. And then I like some of the longer and proggy stuff a lot less than the prog fans do. Different strokes.

I tend to be a bit the same.

One of my favourite DT moments ever is the guitar outro to Innocence faded.

[OsMosis2259]

Personally, I think Six Degrees had some of Jordan's best work.

This. I think Top 3 JR albums in no particular are:
ADTOE
SFAM
Six Degrees

I know he did great on DT12 but it's hard to focus on them because the guitars are in your face in the mix.

[Joshin U]

That is rather funny, given that Awake in my favorite album and those are literally my least 2 favorite songs on it. 

Exactly what I'm saying! I generally seem to like the shorter and more accessible tracks more than the prog fans do. And then I like some of the longer and proggy stuff a lot less than the prog fans do. Different strokes.

I tend to be a bit the same.

One of my favourite DT moments ever is the guitar outro to Innocence faded.

See, that's a personal conundrum for me because that outro is fantastic.  Classic case of great moment stuck in mediocre song.

And blob, I forget: do you like or hate 6:00? Concise and reasonably accessible.

[BlobVanDam]

That is rather funny, given that Awake in my favorite album and those are literally my least 2 favorite songs on it. 

Exactly what I'm saying! I generally seem to like the shorter and more accessible tracks more than the prog fans do. And then I like some of the longer and proggy stuff a lot less than the prog fans do. Different strokes.

I tend to be a bit the same.

One of my favourite DT moments ever is the guitar outro to Innocence faded.

See, that's a personal conundrum for me because that outro is fantastic.  Classic case of great moment stuck in mediocre song.

And blob, I forget: do you like or hate 6:00? Concise and reasonably accessible.

I really like it aside from the repetitive samples, but not quite as much as CIAW and IF, which I love. So I do like it for the same reasons, it just happens to have that one thing that makes me not enjoy it as much.
So I'd be happy if the trend of shorter songs on DT12 continues, although I do also like more balance of shorter and longer tracks.

[mikeyd23]

This. I think Top 3 JR albums in no particular are:
ADTOE
SFAM
Six Degrees

I know he did great on DT12 but it's hard to focus on them because the guitars are in your face in the mix.

Totally agree, I think ADTOE, SFAM, and SDOIT are his best.  I'll be interested to hear live renditions of some of the DT12 material because his parts on it are, as a whole, fantastic, but like you mentioned the album mix makes it difficult at times to fully appreciate the work he did throughout the record.

[?]

I think Top 3 JR albums in no particular are:
ADTOE
SFAM
Six Degrees

[Joshin U]

I really like it aside from the repetitive samples, but not quite as much as CIAW and IF, which I love. So I do like it for the same reasons, it just happens to have that one thing that makes me not enjoy it as much.
So I'd be happy if the trend of shorter songs on DT12 continues, although I do also like more balance of shorter and longer tracks.

Fair enough! 

Back on topic, I agree with the concept of shorter songs with only a few longer songs sprinkled in, but I almost feel like DT12 forced it.  It often feels like each song was mechanically pieced together (or stripped down from something else) to serve a purpose, rather than something organic that grew out creative inputs.  Oddly enough,  think that the longest song, IT, is the biggest culprit of this, with portions of it feeling nearly obligatory.  I still really like DT12, but because of this mechanical and seemingly un-passionate feel, it's beginning to lose its flavor.

[BlobVanDam]

I really like it aside from the repetitive samples, but not quite as much as CIAW and IF, which I love. So I do like it for the same reasons, it just happens to have that one thing that makes me not enjoy it as much.
So I'd be happy if the trend of shorter songs on DT12 continues, although I do also like more balance of shorter and longer tracks.

Fair enough! 

Back on topic, I agree with the concept of shorter songs with only a few longer songs sprinkled in, but I almost feel like DT12 forced it.  It often feels like each song was mechanically pieced together (or stripped down from something else) to serve a purpose, rather than something organic that grew out creative inputs.  Oddly enough,  think that the longest song, IT, is the biggest culprit of this, with portions of it feeling nearly obligatory.  I still really like DT12, but because of this mechanical and seemingly un-passionate feel, it's beginning to lose its flavor.

I actually agree with you concerning DT12. The songs feel a bit too concise in areas, as if some ideas needed more room to breathe, and to be explored further. But I do appreciate that the album isn't long for the sake of filling a disc.

[Joshin U]

I really like it aside from the repetitive samples, but not quite as much as CIAW and IF, which I love. So I do like it for the same reasons, it just happens to have that one thing that makes me not enjoy it as much.
So I'd be happy if the trend of shorter songs on DT12 continues, although I do also like more balance of shorter and longer tracks.

Fair enough! 

Back on topic, I agree with the concept of shorter songs with only a few longer songs sprinkled in, but I almost feel like DT12 forced it.  It often feels like each song was mechanically pieced together (or stripped down from something else) to serve a purpose, rather than something organic that grew out creative inputs.  Oddly enough,  think that the longest song, IT, is the biggest culprit of this, with portions of it feeling nearly obligatory.  I still really like DT12, but because of this mechanical and seemingly un-passionate feel, it's beginning to lose its flavor.

I actually agree with you concerning DT12. The songs feel a bit too concise in areas, as if some ideas needed more room to breathe, and to be explored further. But I do appreciate that the album isn't long for the sake of filling a disc.

For sure.  I'd still much rather have the problems that DT12 has over the problems that BC&SL has.

[OsMosis2259]

This. I think Top 3 JR albums in no particular are:
ADTOE
SFAM
Six Degrees

I know he did great on DT12 but it's hard to focus on them because the guitars are in your face in the mix.

Totally agree, I think ADTOE, SFAM, and SDOIT are his best.  I'll be interested to hear live renditions of some of the DT12 material because his parts on it are, as a whole, fantastic, but like you mentioned the album mix makes it difficult at times to fully appreciate the work he did throughout the record.

Yeah the mix/production really brings DT12 down but I know the songs are good. I'm looking forward to the upcoming live show as well.

I know there were some people that were unhappy with the drums and the mix on ADTOE... While the drums kind of did lack the punch on ADTOE, DT12 is a step down as far as the drum "sound". I think I was expecting that modern drum sound that a band like Periphery had on their last release but instead it sounds too 80s/old school. Luna Park also lacked that punch too that Portnoy had on Score/Budokan.

We have three releases where Mangini played like a beast... but they were let down whether it was the drum sound/mix etc.
It's a shame that you see others bands releasing albums with better production as they progress but DT seems to be doing the opposite. I think ADTOE is a top 5 DT album but FII until Octavarium had DT's best sounding albums IMO     

[Nearmyth]

I really like it aside from the repetitive samples, but not quite as much as CIAW and IF, which I love. So I do like it for the same reasons, it just happens to have that one thing that makes me not enjoy it as much.
So I'd be happy if the trend of shorter songs on DT12 continues, although I do also like more balance of shorter and longer tracks.

Fair enough! 

Back on topic, I agree with the concept of shorter songs with only a few longer songs sprinkled in, but I almost feel like DT12 forced it.  It often feels like each song was mechanically pieced together (or stripped down from something else) to serve a purpose, rather than something organic that grew out creative inputs.  Oddly enough,  think that the longest song, IT, is the biggest culprit of this, with portions of it feeling nearly obligatory.  I still really like DT12, but because of this mechanical and seemingly un-passionate feel, it's beginning to lose its flavor.

I actually agree with you concerning DT12. The songs feel a bit too concise in areas, as if some ideas needed more room to breathe, and to be explored further. But I do appreciate that the album isn't long for the sake of filling a disc.

This has been on my mind since the release of the CD.

This is the first album, save WDADU, without a 10-19 minute song, and it made the album feel really limited for me. Having a ton of short, catchy, and in some cases simpler songs (albeit without losing that DT prog feel), caused me to burn out on this album a lot faster. The only song I've had to listen to multiple times to really get it was Surrender To Reason, but besides that there's nothing to pick at (even IT wasn't too complex or "out there"). Sometimes it seems like the best albums are the ones that take longest to get into.

And on IT, I do think it feels pretty forced by DT standards. It has a really cliche structure, at least. Dramatic opening, riff factory, edgy verse-chorus to get it going, instrumental section... All up until the ending, which on my first listen had a striking resemblance to Octavarium's ending, it sounded like a mix of SDOIT's finale and Razor's Edge actually  The only part of the song I think was really neat/cool/unique/new for DT was The Pursuit of Truth (the 11 minute mark of course). I'm still trying to accept IT for what it is, but I can't help but nitpick its structure and motive.

I realize I'm talking pretty negatively about the CD, don't get me wrong I think it's a great album  I just haven't been able to vent my problems with it yet 

[The Stray Seed]

This album may not be the absolute best in DT discography, but I think it will be the greatest album of all to hear in a live setting. I believe it has huge live potential.

[Sycsa]

This album may not be the absolute best in DT discography, but I think it will be the greatest album of all to hear in a live setting. I believe it has huge live potential.

Indeed. I can already envision the insane amount of energy when they blast into TEI after the epic intro, when the whole crowd sings along at the chorus of AFTR or when James majestically comes back after the orchestra break...."Mothers for their children". Goosebumps.

[The Stray Seed]

^ Yeah, I just can't wait to hear them!! This time around it's gonna be special, also because they are coming to my city, Florence!!

[jakepriest]

EDIT: wrong thread

[Mebert78]

I believe this album has the strongest lyrics of any DT album.  I just find them so inspiring and uplifting.  The words on this album are like words to live by.  Simply brilliant from start to finish lyrically.

[gmillerdrake]

I believe this album has the strongest lyrics of any DT album.  I just find them so inspiring and uplifting.  The words on this album are like words to live by.  Simply brilliant from start to finish lyrically.

Yep. JP gives us a host of solid, inspirational  lyrics that illustrate the songs nicely. And for me....JMX just adds to his lore with the lyrics to 'Surrender to Reason'....another outstanding lyrical masterpiece in my eyes. 

[Nearmyth]

Agreed!

[Perpetual Change]

I dunno. The "life lessons" lyrics don't bother me, but I think they're kinda Peartian, and I'd rather listen to lyrics that are a bit more poetic and expressive. I suppose the lyrics on DT12 are very "mature" sounding, but they fail to impact me and I wish JP made more use of poetic devices. Things are still really "literal" on DT12, but I do agree that topically they're getting better.

[Zook]

Eh, sometimes I think DT need to forget everything they've done in the past, and write without thinking about their past works.

"Dream Theater" isn't exactly a name that registers to me as a metal band. They should try some more ambient works a la the intro of Trial of Tears and Someone Like Him. How about some jazz? Obviously they shouldn't make an album each of these styles, but I would love to see them actually experiment.

What type of jazz are you suggesting. Youtube example?

[Lucien]

I don't know if I could give any youtube examples simply because I don't generally go out of my way to listen to jazz, but the first thing that comes to mind is the jazzy section in Haken's Cockroach King

[Zook]

I don't know if I could give any youtube examples simply because I don't generally go out of my way to listen to jazz, but the first thing that comes to mind is the jazzy section in Haken's Cockroach King

I'm not listening to that song again.