Along for the Ride Discussion Thread

[Zydar]

You go, Jordan!

[lyfeternl]

I didn't see much negative nancying here, just legit complaints about the sound. But the fact is that streams are low quality and that any problems with the sound are likely to be amplified ('scuse the pun) by the low quality.

I suppose I am coming from a vein where I am just thrilled to be getting new material from DT that I am thoroughly enjoying. What good does nitpicking the most minor of details about the mix or sound actually do...? Nothing.

At times I feel people complain and over-analyze sound mix issues and the like in a way to give themselves airs; like they could've done better or their royal, elite audiophile ear is not satisfied. Also, I think some have delusioned themselves into thinking that if they complain enough, they will be this driving force of change for the band and they will cater to their every whim. Things like "Hey, the snare tone is about 0.083283% too low" or "the drums are triggered" or "JR used the same lead tone again for a solo?!?!?!?" etc. etc. etc....they're just wearing and, quite frankly, ridiculous.

I know that the 'legit complaints' are the exception and the vast majority of the fanbase love both TEI and AFTR but it boggles my mind how for some, "everything is never enough"

[MoraWintersoul]

I didn't see much negative nancying here, just legit complaints about the sound. But the fact is that streams are low quality and that any problems with the sound are likely to be amplified ('scuse the pun) by the low quality.

I suppose I am coming from a vein where I am just thrilled to be getting new material from DT that I am thoroughly enjoying. What good does nitpicking the most minor of details about the mix or sound actually do...? Nothing.

At times I feel people complain and over-analyze sound mix issues and the like in a way to give themselves airs; like they could've done better or their royal, elite audiophile ear is not satisfied. Also, I think some have delusioned themselves into thinking that if they complain enough, they will be this driving force of change for the band and they will cater to their every whim. Things like "Hey, the snare tone is about 0.083283% too low" or "the drums are triggered" or "JR used the same lead tone again for a solo?!?!?!?" etc. etc. etc....they're just wearing and, quite frankly, ridiculous.

I know that the 'legit complaints' are the exception and the vast majority of the fanbase love both TEI and AFTR but it boggles my mind how for some, "everything is never enough"

I would file the complaints of the audiophiles under "legit complaints", as I would do that with any complaint that's constructive and said in a respective tone.

[atmyne]

<3 Jordan
seriously though this trend of critiquing mixing despite having little to no knowledge of mixing and mastering is such a wank imo...

[MoraWintersoul]

Expect a number of DTFers who have knowledge of mixing and who have criticized the mix to quote your post with added insights

[atmyne]

I expect there would be many smart-arses ready to school me on it!
I don't even care really. To me the drums sounds great, Jordans synth solo sounds fine, and haters gone' hate.

[dongringo]

I wasn't going to listen to this one until the album but 23 pages of mostly complaints inspired me to. Personally I really like the song upon only one listen and expected something like this on the album. Its melodic, catchy, and full of feeling. My opinion is the TEI was released as a single more for the established fan base whereas AFTR was released in order to appeal to a larger audience. Either way, the two songs really show the bands range. Good move on the bands part. They just aren't going to be able to please the uber picky people who expect something groundbreaking with every single song.

[?]

To be honest I think the drums could sound much better, but the production isn't that big of a deal to me and music is what matters the most.

Regards, an amateur musician who sucks at mixing

[atmyne]

I FEEL as though 95% of the people saying the mix is bad are just parroting what some supposedly seasoned sound engineer has said about it, and it isn't even their own insight to the music, and are now spreading the gospel of how they wished certain things should be better about the mix.
I know that sounds a little ridiculous, but that's just coming from MY perspective: I would have never payed absolute attention to the Drums If I hadn't read some of the posts about the mixing because I was paying too much attention to the MUSIC!
and I get the argument that we want the optimal DT listening experience and to enjoy the music by not being distracted by something we think we could have mixed better because we are brilliant audiophiles who are inherently geniuses at mixing music, but I would invite you to query just for a moment if YOU cared about the mixing before it was pointed out to you (analogous to the cut in the original artwork if you will )
I know a lot of this seems like mad, barely coherent dribble, but I just need to get that off my chest for now. I guess I just HOPE people are listening to the songs as they are and not worrying about other peoples standards/expectations.
also +1 lolsoundcloud
</UnjustifiedRant>

[evz]

Well with much trepidation I make my first post here... While this isn't my favorite style of song in general, I think this song is fantastic.  The guys put a lot of layers/movement into this song, the guitars don't play the same thing under every verse, etc... 

To me this is DT being DT, rather DT trying to be U2 or whoever, or even hey lets write a ballad and try keep it simple.  Leave that to the other bands!  I love the way the parts change, yet the song maintains the sense of being a song rather than all these cool parts strung together.  There's all sorts of emotion here.  Put this with TEI (which I also really like) and I cannot wait to hear the rest!

As far as the production complaints, I can hear where people are coming from, but I'm hoping as others have said that it's soundcloud, and the actual disc will sound better.

13 more days!   

[hefdaddy42]

I didn't see much negative nancying here, just legit complaints about the sound. But the fact is that streams are low quality and that any problems with the sound are likely to be amplified ('scuse the pun) by the low quality.

I suppose I am coming from a vein where I am just thrilled to be getting new material from DT that I am thoroughly enjoying. What good does nitpicking the most minor of details about the mix or sound actually do...? Nothing.

At times I feel people complain and over-analyze sound mix issues and the like in a way to give themselves airs; like they could've done better or their royal, elite audiophile ear is not satisfied. Also, I think some have delusioned themselves into thinking that if they complain enough, they will be this driving force of change for the band and they will cater to their every whim. Things like "Hey, the snare tone is about 0.083283% too low" or "the drums are triggered" or "JR used the same lead tone again for a solo?!?!?!?" etc. etc. etc....they're just wearing and, quite frankly, ridiculous.

I know that the 'legit complaints' are the exception and the vast majority of the fanbase love both TEI and AFTR but it boggles my mind how for some, "everything is never enough"

I was agreeing with you to a certain extent until you cited Never Enough.

*weeps*

[BlobVanDam]

I FEEL as though 95% of the people saying the mix is bad are just parroting what some supposedly seasoned sound engineer has said about it, and it isn't even their own insight to the music, and are now spreading the gospel of how they wished certain things should be better about the mix.
I know that sounds a little ridiculous, but that's just coming from MY perspective: I would have never payed absolute attention to the Drums If I hadn't read some of the posts about the mixing because I was paying too much attention to the MUSIC!
and I get the argument that we want the optimal DT listening experience and to enjoy the music by not being distracted by something we think we could have mixed better because we are brilliant audiophiles who are inherently geniuses at mixing music, but I would invite you to query just for a moment if YOU cared about the mixing before it was pointed out to you (analogous to the cut in the original artwork if you will )
I know a lot of this seems like mad, barely coherent dribble, but I just need to get that off my chest for now. I guess I just HOPE people are listening to the songs as they are and not worrying about other peoples standards/expectations.
also +1 lolsoundcloud
</UnjustifiedRant>

I feel as though you're just not accepting that people are forming an opinion on the song/mix that you don't agree with. Give people a little more credit than being automaton forum zombies!
Hearing the music and hearing the production are not mutually exclusive listening experiences. I don't know how you can listen to the music without noticing such details. It's all part of the music.

I don't have a major problem with the drum mix, aside from the low tuned snare, but that's always been a personal dislike of mine, and is personal preference, not something that objectively needs to be "fixed". Other than that, I am much happier with the drum mix on this than ADTOE. I can hear MM's cymbals just fine. A low bandwidth stream will cut the high frequencies, which will definitely affect hats/cymbals too.

[The Stray Seed]

I am also really enjoying this new material and am not bothered by any issues concerning mix or lyrics or else. From a songwriting point of view, I do agree that they've done better than these two new singles, BUT what is "better" is actually what I consider being some of the greatest music of all time. So this is the reason why, to me, the level of these tracks is still astounding.

[Setebos]

I FEEL as though 95% of the people saying the mix is bad are just parroting what some supposedly seasoned sound engineer has said about it, and it isn't even their own insight to the music, and are now spreading the gospel of how they wished certain things should be better about the mix.
I know that sounds a little ridiculous, but that's just coming from MY perspective: I would have never payed absolute attention to the Drums If I hadn't read some of the posts about the mixing because I was paying too much attention to the MUSIC!
and I get the argument that we want the optimal DT listening experience and to enjoy the music by not being distracted by something we think we could have mixed better because we are brilliant audiophiles who are inherently geniuses at mixing music, but I would invite you to query just for a moment if YOU cared about the mixing before it was pointed out to you (analogous to the cut in the original artwork if you will )
I know a lot of this seems like mad, barely coherent dribble, but I just need to get that off my chest for now. I guess I just HOPE people are listening to the songs as they are and not worrying about other peoples standards/expectations.
also +1 lolsoundcloud
</UnjustifiedRant>

Or maybe it's simpler and people criticize the sound because they don't really like the sound? I don't see that many people here pretending to be experts in sound engineering. Personally, I know nothing about that. And still, if I compare the sound of TEI and AFTR with recent prog releases from different artists (e.g. Steven Wilson's Raven that refused to sing or Haken's The Mountain), it simply does not sound as good. Even though the songs are pretty short, to my ears they are tiring to listen to and it is much more difficult to really follow what's going on with each instrument, because everything is embedded into that wall of sound.

Regarding the soundcloud stream: Of course Jordan is right in saying that the stream quality is not representative of the end result. But the question one has to ask then is: Why not use a higher quality stream? It really should not come as a surprise that DT fans are passionate about that sort of thing.

[The Stray Seed]

Regarding the soundcloud stream: Of course Jordan is right in saying that the stream quality is not representative of the end result. But the question one has to ask then is: Why not use a higher quality stream? It really should not come as a surprise that DT fans are passionate about that sort of thing.

The answer is quite simple. Everyone who would rip off the song would be possessing a high quality track, and would have no reason to buy the song.

[BlobVanDam]

Regarding the soundcloud stream: Of course Jordan is right in saying that the stream quality is not representative of the end result. But the question one has to ask then is: Why not use a higher quality stream? It really should not come as a surprise that DT fans are passionate about that sort of thing.

The answer is quite simple. Everyone who would rip off the song would be possessing a high quality track, and would have no reason to buy the song.

Releasing songs before the album are like a demo or preview of the album, to give a tasty little sample of what to expect on the album. It's promotion, so you want it to be as good as possible.
Ideally they should make the stream secure enough that the majority of people don't find it too easy to rip to avoid any problems there, although DT aren't a band that relies on sales of singles. They're an album band, so I don't see it affecting them majorly anyway.

[lyfeternl]

I didn't see much negative nancying here, just legit complaints about the sound. But the fact is that streams are low quality and that any problems with the sound are likely to be amplified ('scuse the pun) by the low quality.

I suppose I am coming from a vein where I am just thrilled to be getting new material from DT that I am thoroughly enjoying. What good does nitpicking the most minor of details about the mix or sound actually do...? Nothing.

At times I feel people complain and over-analyze sound mix issues and the like in a way to give themselves airs; like they could've done better or their royal, elite audiophile ear is not satisfied. Also, I think some have delusioned themselves into thinking that if they complain enough, they will be this driving force of change for the band and they will cater to their every whim. Things like "Hey, the snare tone is about 0.083283% too low" or "the drums are triggered" or "JR used the same lead tone again for a solo?!?!?!?" etc. etc. etc....they're just wearing and, quite frankly, ridiculous.

I know that the 'legit complaints' are the exception and the vast majority of the fanbase love both TEI and AFTR but it boggles my mind how for some, "everything is never enough"

I was agreeing with you to a certain extent until you cited Never Enough.

*weeps*

[atmyne]

I feel as though you're just not accepting that people are forming an opinion on the song/mix that you don't agree with. Give people a little more credit than being automaton forum zombies!
Hearing the music and hearing the production are not mutually exclusive listening experiences. I don't know how you can listen to the music without noticing such details. It's all part of the music.

I don't have a major problem with the drum mix, aside from the low tuned snare, but that's always been a personal dislike of mine, and is personal preference, not something that objectively needs to be "fixed". Other than that, I am much happier with the drum mix on this than ADTOE. I can hear MM's cymbals just fine. A low bandwidth stream will cut the high frequencies, which will definitely affect hats/cymbals too.

I am all for the many diverse opinions that are formed about the song/mix, although I am baffled as to the Quantity of people that are so unforgiving about the quality and the drum mix, or at least even contemplating it as an issue while NOT being versed on production. I know it's partly a personal thing, because I still don't quite get what's wrong with the mix (except maybe that the snare seems to be in the same sonic domain as the bass drum(?)), and i'm sure that there are others like myself. I HAVE and DO listen to the music without noticing such details. How can you not understand that people won't pay attention to such things? in the same way that you can't understand how the album cover can possibly exist without the band name on it?

In saying all that I have, it has occurred to me that alot of people will be paying close attention to the drums, as this is "Mike unleashed", and that the drums have always been a big part of DT that draws people to the band (thanks to the great MP), although I've always listened to the music as a whole (and also mainly to JP as a guitarist). It's not really an issue at all, and I'm sure the album will prove itself when it comes out.

I agree I like the mix of the drums far better this time.

[Tomislav95]

Commenting second time on how I liked song: 2 days have passed and I like AFTR much more then TEI. I liked AFTR on first listen but now I see (or hear) it something special (at least to me). GO DT! Can't wait for album

[(nothing)]

Other than that, I am much happier with the drum mix on this than ADTOE. I can hear MM's cymbals just fine.

This has always bugged me: can you tell me on which songs or segments of ADTOE the cymbals are "drowned"? I've been trying to find them for 2 years. Which has led me to believe that I must have a problem with my ears or you all are wrong.

[BlobVanDam]

Other than that, I am much happier with the drum mix on this than ADTOE. I can hear MM's cymbals just fine.

This has always bugged me: can you tell me on which songs or segments of ADTOE the cymbals are "drowned"? I've been trying to find them for 2 years. Which has led me to believe that I must have a problem with my ears or you all are wrong.

It's not a specific section, just the drum mix in general on the album (sorry, that's not really really helpful ).
The biggest problem to me is that the drums don't cut through the mix, because I don't hear any production on them such as EQ'ing or track compression to bring out some punch that is clearly audible through the rest of the instruments.

I think they've definitely remedied that on DT12 so far.

[nikatapi]

Sorry guys but someone doesn't have to be a producer in order to notice things they dislike about the production. It's like saying that you need to have music knowledge to make a comment about the quality of the music.

People (including me) find some things disappointing in terms of production, especially the drum sound, and it's not a simple complain, it's a disappointment that comes from the high standards we've come to expect from the band.
If the composition and the individual performances are good, why hinder them with sub-par audio quality? It's a legit complaint and some people just notice things intuitively or maybe they have listened to many albums and can notice some sound quality issues.

And yes, production can be judged generally even from a low bitrate soundcloud stream, it's not going to get incredibly better on the cd, exactly like the TEI stream and iTunes version. There is improvement, but it's not extreme.

Anyway, the song is good and i'm sure the best is yet to come, i just wanted to say that i'm sure most people commenting about the sound quality just love the band and the music, and they want the production to be the best possible to lift the music to the next level of enjoyment.

Other than that, I am much happier with the drum mix on this than ADTOE. I can hear MM's cymbals just fine.

This has always bugged me: can you tell me on which songs or segments of ADTOE the cymbals are "drowned"? I've been trying to find them for 2 years. Which has led me to believe that I must have a problem with my ears or you all are wrong.

There are many parts where the cymbals are almost inaudible.
For example:
LNF at about 6:50 or so, MM does some insane stuff following the other instruments with the splashes or whatever cymbals these are, goes almost unnoticed with this mix.

Outcry: at about 5:06 he does a nice thing with different cymbals, almost got buried in the mix, watch the drum cam video and listen to the difference in audio, he does the exact same thing.

[TL]

@atmyne

Here's a concept for you. People can like something and still have constructive criticism of it.

I like the song. I also don't like the mastering, and don't like the snare sound. These are opinions I formed entirely from listening to the stream of the song provided by the band, with my own ears.

With a band like Dream Theater, there tends to be a lot going on in a track, and people like to actually be able to hear those things. Mike Mangini is a fantastic drummer, and so I would like to be able to clearly hear the cool stuff he's playing, rather than having to strain and focus to sort of pick it up.

Most people voicing criticism are doing so because of how much they like Dream Theater and their music. It's not hate or negativity, it's holding something they like to a higher standard. You're allowed to disagree, but constantly bitching about 'all the negativity', especially when much of it is actually valid constructive criticism, is getting really tiring. Putting an artist you like above feedback is just about the worst thing you can do for them.

[KevShmev]

Looks like Rudess has overtaken Portnoy's previous role of addressing fan criticism via the internet and/or social media. 

And some people thought the remaining members couldn't do the things he did!

[atmyne]

@atmyne

Here's a concept for you. People can like something and still have constructive criticism of it.

I like the song. I also don't like the mastering, and don't like the snare sound. These are opinions I formed entirely from listening to the stream of the song provided by the band, with my own ears.

With a band like Dream Theater, there tends to be a lot going on in a track, and people like to actually be able to hear those things. Mike Mangini is a fantastic drummer, and so I would like to be able to clearly hear the cool stuff he's playing, rather than having to strain and focus to sort of pick it up.

Most people voicing criticism are doing so because of how much they like Dream Theater and their music. It's not hate or negativity, it's holding something they like to a higher standard. You're allowed to disagree, but constantly bitching about 'all the negativity', especially when much of it is actually valid constructive criticism, is getting really tiring. Putting an artist you like above feedback is just about the worst thing you can do for them.

I don't disagree with much of this. I wasn't "bitching" specifically about negativity, but merely the integrity, credibility and/or how justified the "negativity" itself is, which I can see now that's a hopeless, foolish and not a righteous endeavor at all. I understand people genuinely aren't liking the mix, and I couldn't even care! because I really like it (ღ˘⌣˘ღ)

[PROGdrummer]

My only complaint with this mix is that Mike's highhats and cymbals sound like absolute garbage. And that was one of my complaints about ADTOE too. All of the cymbal work is completely lost in the mix. And this time it sounds like its clipping so bad. Its just gross to my ears. I dont have to be a sound engineer to be disappointed by lack of good mixing. I can just TELL  that this sounds bad.

[Dublagent66]

Complaining about the sound of pre-released live streams is pointless.  The final version "always" sounds better.  My thing is, I haven't been a fan of stand alone ballads since ToT.  Not that Vacant is a bad song, it's just out of place.  If they want to change gears and slow things down, I think it is better done within a prog-metal song.  ANTR and TCOT from BC&SL are perfect examples of this.  I'm not a fan of FFH and BTS on ADTOE.  I skip those songs every time because they really don't represent what the rest of album is doing.  But hey, it's their stuff and they can do what they want.  It certainly won't stop me from buying the new album.  If I don't like a particular song, I just skip it.  Simple as that.

[unklejman]

Everyone can keep saying the album will sound better than the stream as many times as they want. While that's true on some level, it won't magically change properties about the recording that dynamic and/or data compression doesn't effect. Like the clicky kick, and the plastic bucket sounding snare.

[commanderbob]

I'm just scanning here, but am I the only one that actively LOVES the new drum sound?  I think that it's a really badass, sort of old-school sound that I like quite a bit.

[Obfuscation]

Jordan on Twitter:

To all the great "experts" out there: The Soundcloud Along for the Ride stream is an audio teaser and quite low sound resolution! #critic

In Yo Face!!! Only problem I have had with their drum mixes with MM so far are the cymbals but seems to me that there will be some improvement on them in this album. As for the snare sound, it will grow on me.

[Ben_Jamin]

My only complaint is how loud JR's solo comes in. It overpowers the last of JLB's note. I'm all yeah then a loud moog appears, I'm all wow that was loud then said good solo.

Other than I have no problem with this so called ballad.  It doesn't feel like a ballad, it just starts soft then grows and expands until the end with no real climax really, well I think the staccato bridge might be the climax.

I have no concern about others opinions, but stuff like uninspired, lazy, etc...is just mean and rude. You weren't there when they recorded. Just cause it's simple doesn't mean its uninspired.

[Podaar]

I'm just scanning here, but am I the only one that actively LOVES the new drum sound?  I think that it's a really badass, sort of old-school sound that I like quite a bit.

Of course not. I too really dig the drum sound and assume that it was done intentionally for the purpose of getting the musicality that they envisioned and not a mistake. So big  from me. Still, it is quite a variation from traditional drum sounds.

Let's face it, there are many DT fans that are musicians, drummers or just plain music enthusiasts that won't care for the change. They have preferences for how the drums are supposed to sound to them and it will sound like a mistake or subpar choice to them. That's fine.

The butthurt could be dialed back on all sides or so it seems to me.

[evz]

Dating myself - but who else remembers the big fuss about the snare sound when A Change of Seasons came out?

Edit: This was in the days of the ytsejam mailing list...

[LTE3]

Any idea as to when this would be available on iTunes?

Off subject but that is a funny cause it's true Steve Wilson line.

[nikatapi]

Youtube link from the RR youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHqLK229G3A