In The Studio - Episode 4

[The Boomr]

Well so far - we've had one album where Mangini was the new guy so probably didn't want to over play - and one song from the new album.

Hardly fair to compare 10 albums of a notoriously showy and overplaying drummer to one album of a drummer who plays for the song.

This!

I don't really know what to think about MP stagnating on a certain technical level. On SC there was his drumming under the solo in Constant Motion, which I think was really original and cool. And on BC&SL: gotta love that ANTR intro. To be totally honest, I've yet to hear such creativity from MM in Dream Theater. So far, it seems to me MM brings a more clinical vibe instead of a looser, cooler vibe. Where's the swag at?

Also, I have hardly ever thought MP's playing sounded like he was stagnating, at least not until BC&SL in several places. Constant Motion drums in that section are wicked cool. But we're talking technique-wise. Everything he ever played, on at least anything after SDOIT, was pretty much all based on the same techniques. It's why, once you've learned one or two complex DT songs successfully on drums, you'll be able to play pretty much the rest of MP's whole catalog with relative speed and ease in learning. I can listen to anything he plays, including new stuff, and anytime I hear a drum fill or solo I can usually point out every specific thing he does because I already know what technique he's using. FYI, mostly I am referring to his use of 2x2, 2x4, 4x2, etc. snare/tom + bass drum fills. I still think it's a great metal drumming fill technique and I overuse it myself, but he uses it...so much. Haha.

I have to ask though, which part of the intro of ANTR are you thinking of, particularly? None of it stands out to me in my head these days. Just some cool tom fills and then right into the speeding triples double bass of death (which he actually played in the feel of duples, not triples, you can tell if you hear just the drum track, and it BUGS THE HELL OUT OF ME).

[Kotowboy]

You can totally tell MP is playing drums.

My dad was listening to a Neal Morse album that i'd never heard before and before I knew who it was - i could tell it was Portnoy on drums.

Then my Dad said it was Neal Morse and I knew I was right

[PixelDream]

I don't really know what to think about MP stagnating on a certain technical level. On SC there was his drumming under the solo in Constant Motion, which I think was really original and cool. And on BC&SL: gotta love that ANTR intro. To be totally honest, I've yet to hear such creativity from MM in Dream Theater. So far, it seems to me MM brings a more clinical vibe instead of a looser, cooler vibe. Where's the swag at?

Well so far - we've had one album where Mangini was the new guy so probably didn't want to over play - and one song from the new album.

Hardly fair to compare 10 albums of a notoriously showy and overplaying drummer to one album of a drummer who plays for the song.

Interesting opinion and you're right about that. The 'for the song' thing is a bit vague but I understand where you're coming from I guess. Though MP's drums have more often than not enhanced the energy of the song for me.. And overplaying is something that's not uncommon for any player in DT.

[BlobVanDam]

I don't really know what to think about MP stagnating on a certain technical level. On SC there was his drumming under the solo in Constant Motion, which I think was really original and cool. And on BC&SL: gotta love that ANTR intro. To be totally honest, I've yet to hear such creativity from MM in Dream Theater. So far, it seems to me MM brings a more clinical vibe instead of a looser, cooler vibe. Where's the swag at?

Well so far - we've had one album where Mangini was the new guy so probably didn't want to over play - and one song from the new album.

Hardly fair to compare 10 albums of a notoriously showy and overplaying drummer to one album of a drummer who plays for the song.

That's not an accurate assessment at all. MP didn't overplay, definitely no more than MM has so far.
However, it is unfair to compare ADTOE, since MM wasn't working entirely from scratch, and was confined to the songs that were already recorded. DT12 will be a fair comparison, since he was part of the writing process from day 1.

[PixelDream]

Well so far - we've had one album where Mangini was the new guy so probably didn't want to over play - and one song from the new album.

Hardly fair to compare 10 albums of a notoriously showy and overplaying drummer to one album of a drummer who plays for the song.

This!

I don't really know what to think about MP stagnating on a certain technical level. On SC there was his drumming under the solo in Constant Motion, which I think was really original and cool. And on BC&SL: gotta love that ANTR intro. To be totally honest, I've yet to hear such creativity from MM in Dream Theater. So far, it seems to me MM brings a more clinical vibe instead of a looser, cooler vibe. Where's the swag at?

Also, I have hardly ever thought MP's playing sounded like he was stagnating, at least not until BC&SL in several places. Constant Motion drums in that section are wicked cool. But we're talking technique-wise. Everything he ever played, on at least anything after SDOIT, was pretty much all based on the same techniques. It's why, once you've learned one or two complex DT songs successfully on drums, you'll be able to play pretty much the rest of MP's whole catalog with relative speed and ease in learning. I can listen to anything he plays, including new stuff, and anytime I hear a drum fill or solo I can usually point out every specific thing he does because I already know what technique he's using. FYI, mostly I am referring to his use of 2x2, 2x4, 4x2, etc. snare/tom + bass drum fills. I still think it's a great metal drumming fill technique and I overuse it myself, but he uses it...so much. Haha.

I have to ask though, which part of the intro of ANTR are you thinking of, particularly? None of it stands out to me in my head these days. Just some cool tom fills and then right into the speeding triples double bass of death (which he actually played in the feel of duples, not triples, you can tell if you hear just the drum track, and it BUGS THE HELL OUT OF ME).

I'm talking about the very intro drumfills, before the doublebass beat kicks in. I know it's not very technical, but I thought it was cool as hell.

[Kotowboy]

I don't really know what to think about MP stagnating on a certain technical level. On SC there was his drumming under the solo in Constant Motion, which I think was really original and cool. And on BC&SL: gotta love that ANTR intro. To be totally honest, I've yet to hear such creativity from MM in Dream Theater. So far, it seems to me MM brings a more clinical vibe instead of a looser, cooler vibe. Where's the swag at?

Well so far - we've had one album where Mangini was the new guy so probably didn't want to over play - and one song from the new album.

Hardly fair to compare 10 albums of a notoriously showy and overplaying drummer to one album of a drummer who plays for the song.

That's not an accurate assessment at all.

Yes Blob. Sorry Blob. Whatever you say Blob.

[aprilethereal]

The ANTR intro is nothing overly fancy, but it's really pumping and fun to airdrum to.

[mikeyd23]

Also, I have hardly ever thought MP's playing sounded like he was stagnating, at least not until BC&SL in several places. Constant Motion drums in that section are wicked cool. But we're talking technique-wise. Everything he ever played, on at least anything after SDOIT, was pretty much all based on the same techniques. It's why, once you've learned one or two complex DT songs successfully on drums, you'll be able to play pretty much the rest of MP's whole catalog with relative speed and ease in learning. I can listen to anything he plays, including new stuff, and anytime I hear a drum fill or solo I can usually point out every specific thing he does because I already know what technique he's using. FYI, mostly I am referring to his use of 2x2, 2x4, 4x2, etc. snare/tom + bass drum fills. I still think it's a great metal drumming fill technique and I overuse it myself, but he uses it...so much. Haha.

Yeah I agree with this. MP is a great drummer, but one of the first thoughts I had after buying The Winery Dogs album was: "Wow, I liked that, but I think I've heard every single drum fill on that album from MP before, like multiple times before on DT stuff."

I have to ask though, which part of the intro of ANTR are you thinking of, particularly? None of it stands out to me in my head these days. Just some cool tom fills and then right into the speeding triples double bass of death (which he actually played in the feel of duples, not triples, you can tell if you hear just the drum track, and it BUGS THE HELL OUT OF ME).

I thought of the part that starts at 1:54 where MP plays a somewhat straight rock groove over the riff and then around 2:05 adds in the little cymbal hits to change it up. I always thought that was cool!

[The Boomr]

I'm talking about the very intro drumfills, before the doublebass beat kicks in. I know it's not very technical, but I thought it was cool as hell.

Ah, k. I think those sound pretty cool cause of the way his set and toms sound.... Really though I'm not trying to put down any of his playing (although I enjoy making jabs at that blast beat ), because he was absolutely the biggest inspiration for me to learn drums, which subsequently became my favorite instrument, and I have always loved his playing on nearly everything he does. When MM joined, I didn't convert and suddenly think MP sounds horrible on all the old DT. Admittedly, I did convert to an MM fanboy, because he excites my inner music theory nerd a whole lot more, while still playing with feeling and groove, and my opinion is that he is definitely the better drummer. However, that doesn't diminish my opinion of MP at all (as a drummer).

Yeah I agree with this. MP is a great drummer, but one of the first thoughts I had after buying The Winery Dogs album was: "Wow, I liked that, but I think I've heard every single drum fill on that album from MP before, like multiple times before on DT stuff."

Exaaaactly!

I thought of the part that starts at 1:54 where MP plays a somewhat straight rock groove over the riff and then around 2:05 adds in the little cymbal hits to change it up. I always thought that was cool!

I do totally agree with that. That is a great example of innovating a little bit with that 2x2 pattern!

[Mladen]

I'm having a hard time finding the video from which these GIFs are from, can you help me out?

[Flurokazoo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sg2ZRsyXes

Here you go!

[ariich]

Well so far - we've had one album where Mangini was the new guy so probably didn't want to over play - and one song from the new album.

Hardly fair to compare 10 albums of a notoriously showy and overplaying drummer to one album of a drummer who plays for the song.

That's not an accurate assessment at all.

Yes Blob. Sorry Blob. Whatever you say Blob.

He's right though, it's hardly fair to say that MP always overplayed while MM doesn't, given the only album MM has played on he sort of picked up what already existed.

And anyway, I'm not sure why a DT fan would have a problem with overplaying anyway.

[Mladen]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sg2ZRsyXes

Here you go!

Thank you. That's such a cool moment. 

[RodrigoAltaf]

I´m not a drummer, so can anyon explain what´s so wrong about MP´s blast beats on ANTR? I thought it was cool that he put it there, it was something new for DT.

[Kotowboy]

I think it was the fact that people felt he was trying to make DT more and more heavy and like other bands around at the time like Opeth.

Plus the fact that he was attempting cookie monster vocals. . It was just making DT less like Dream Theater and more like a generic "heavy" band.

I wasn't foo fussed with it myself - but I can imagine this being a reaosn. . .

[BlobVanDam]

I don't have any problem at all with the blast beat.

[Victor Alexandrov]

As well as his growling, the blasts really didn't fit DT's music. Also they were sloppily played to say the least.

[RodrigoAltaf]

That´s what I´m asking - is it really all that sloppy? I cannot distinguish between a well-played blast beat and a sloppy one...

[BlobVanDam]

As well as his growling, the blasts really didn't fit DT's music. Also they were sloppily played to say the least.

He did not growl. And whether the blast beat fit is a matter of opinion. I thought they fit well.

That´s what I´m asking - is it really all that sloppy? I cannot distinguish between a well-played blast beat and a sloppy one...

The blast beat wasn't perfect, but it wasn't as bad as some people say.

[ariich]

I don't have any problem at all with the blast beat.

Same here.

[Mladen]

I remember being putt off by the blast beats the first time I heard the song, and I still don't like them. To me, they just don't sound... good, I guess. The cookie monster vocals, however, grew on me quickly, it's just a fun section all around.

[?]

Why do people keep referring to MP's vocal part in ANTR as cookie monster vocals (or any kind of growls)? The term is used for real growls (like Mikael Åkerfeldt's) and even in that context it sounds kind of insulting towards vocalists who use that style IMO. Of course MP had intended to do some proper growls on the song ( https://www.mikeportnoy.com/mp/ANTR%20MP%20Cookie.mp3 ), but in the end he used the tough guy voice from Constant Motion for the section.

[chaotic_ripper]

Why do people keep referring to MP's vocal part in ANTR as cookie monster vocals (or any kind of growls)? The term is used for real growls (like Mikael Åkerfeldt's) and even in that context it sounds kind of insulting towards vocalists who use that style IMO. Of course MP had intended to do some proper growls on the song ( https://www.mikeportnoy.com/mp/ANTR%20MP%20Cookie.mp3 ), but in the end he used the tough guy voice from Constant Motion for the section.

Yeah, that's much worse. 

[?]

Why do people keep referring to MP's vocal part in ANTR as cookie monster vocals (or any kind of growls)? The term is used for real growls (like Mikael Åkerfeldt's) and even in that context it sounds kind of insulting towards vocalists who use that style IMO. Of course MP had intended to do some proper growls on the song ( https://www.mikeportnoy.com/mp/ANTR%20MP%20Cookie.mp3 ), but in the end he used the tough guy voice from Constant Motion for the section.

Yeah, that's much worse.

You mean the growls? Actually I think they sound better than the vocals on the final version, but growling would've fit the lyrics even worse and it's not DT's thing anyway. I mean, I listen to lots of bands with growls and I'm totally ok with bands experimenting, but I think DT should stay away from that vocal style.

[aprilethereal]

Why do people keep referring to MP's vocal part in ANTR as cookie monster vocals (or any kind of growls)? The term is used for real growls (like Mikael Åkerfeldt's) and even in that context it sounds kind of insulting towards vocalists who use that style IMO. Of course MP had intended to do some proper growls on the song ( https://www.mikeportnoy.com/mp/ANTR%20MP%20Cookie.mp3 ), but in the end he used the tough guy voice from Constant Motion for the section.

Yeah, that's much worse.

Only because MP can't really pull it off. As un-DT-like as it might be, I think properly executed growls during that section (maybe with different lyrics ) would fit ANTR fairly well, as do the blast beats.