The Enemy Inside Discussion Thread

[Nefarius]

Preorderd the limited edition box set too, 11.5MB and 256kbps single for me. Strange.

Greetings...
Nef

[wasteland]

Itunes, 287KB, 13.5MB.

[TheGreatPretender]

Preorderd the limited edition box set too, 11.5MB and 256kbps single for me. Strange.

Greetings...
Nef

Probably varies with the region for some odd reason I'm in Canada.

[wolven74]

With regards to compression... I bought the single from iTunes, and I can hear some compression, but I think that's true of all mp3s and digital music (at least in my experience it is)... I plan on buying a physical copy of the CD and ripping it into my computer, rather than buying the album through iTunes. Does ripping a CD into iTunes compress the same way buying the CD through iTunes does? I'm not enough of an audiophile to know for sure.

I remember I bought the single for OTBOA through iTunes and it was all compressed and sounded muddy (more so than TEI due to the drums being so low) But when I bought the CD everything was much clearer, so I got rid of the single and ripped that into iTunes and everything was fine.

[soulburner]

With regards to compression... I bought the single from iTunes, and I can hear some compression, but I think that's true of all mp3s and digital music (at least in my experience it is)... I plan on buying a physical copy of the CD and ripping it into my computer, rather than buying the album through iTunes. Does ripping a CD into iTunes compress the same way buying the CD through iTunes does? I'm not enough of an audiophile to know for sure.

I remember I bought the single for OTBOA through iTunes and it was all compressed and sounded muddy (more so than TEI due to the drums being so low) But when I bought the CD everything was much clearer, so I got rid of the single and ripped that into iTunes and everything was fine.

That's a different compression you are talking about. MP3, iTunes, etc. are compressed to reduce the file size. The lossy method of compression can sound audibly worse than CD Audio in some cases but it depends on how the file was created (there are more settings than just bitrate), so you may have had a song that did sound a bit "muddy". Lossy compression removes sounds that are inaudible to most people, like cutting high frequencies. That's why an mp3 file can be 10MB, while the uncompressed Wave file source could have been 80MB or more.

What we are complaining here about is something else - it's called dynamics compression. Try and google the term "Loudness War" if you wish to know more, but in short, it's a trend to have music as loud as possible. To achieve that an engineer has to reduce the difference between softer and louder moments in music. In some cases it's a good thing (when used in moderation) but currently it has been so abused the audio quality suffers immensely, making all instruments compete against each other, often covering themselves (in some cases a keyboard solo makes the guitars or drums suddenly become softer). Sometimes this makes the sound become muddy (although there are many other reasons for that, too) or create a "pumping" effect where, for example, each hit of the drums makes other instruments become quiter for the duration of the drum. It can also lead to... fatigue. You may stop listening to a modern album release after a few songs even though you love all of them and not be quite sure why exactly you did it.

[AngelBack]

I really liked TEI first listen and it is still growing on me because I am not overdosing on it.  When OTBOA came out, I listened to it many times per day and while I think it was and is a great song, the enjoyment of the discovery period wore off pretty quickly. I am only listening to TEI a couple of times per day and I am still learning it and finding new and cool aspects to the song.  Kinda like taking your time on a fine meal rather than shoveling it in as quickly as possible.  I like this approach better.

[aurorablind]

So i ordered the box set now, and recieved a link to download the single. Im re-directed to customer service, with this message:  "requested link does not exist".
Am i doing it wrong 

[johncal]

With regards to compression... I bought the single from iTunes, and I can hear some compression, but I think that's true of all mp3s and digital music (at least in my experience it is)... I plan on buying a physical copy of the CD and ripping it into my computer, rather than buying the album through iTunes. Does ripping a CD into iTunes compress the same way buying the CD through iTunes does? I'm not enough of an audiophile to know for sure.

I remember I bought the single for OTBOA through iTunes and it was all compressed and sounded muddy (more so than TEI due to the drums being so low) But when I bought the CD everything was much clearer, so I got rid of the single and ripped that into iTunes and everything was fine.

The short answer is - it depends. There are different compression levels you can set in iTunes for ripping CD's, kind of like a JPG photo. The higher the quality the more disk space it uses. There definitely is a difference between the standard level set by iTunes and the higher quality level that you can set.  Edit/preferences/ import settings. Use highest frequency, highest bit rate, and disable any other "auto" or "variable" settings.

[johncal]

With regards to compression... I bought the single from iTunes, and I can hear some compression, but I think that's true of all mp3s and digital music (at least in my experience it is)... I plan on buying a physical copy of the CD and ripping it into my computer, rather than buying the album through iTunes. Does ripping a CD into iTunes compress the same way buying the CD through iTunes does? I'm not enough of an audiophile to know for sure.

I remember I bought the single for OTBOA through iTunes and it was all compressed and sounded muddy (more so than TEI due to the drums being so low) But when I bought the CD everything was much clearer, so I got rid of the single and ripped that into iTunes and everything was fine.

That's a different compression you are talking about. MP3, iTunes, etc. are compressed to reduce the file size. The lossy method of compression can sound audibly worse than CD Audio in some cases but it depends on how the file was created (there are more settings than just bitrate), so you may have had a song that did sound a bit "muddy". Lossy compression removes sounds that are inaudible to most people, like cutting high frequencies. That's why an mp3 file can be 10MB, while the uncompressed Wave file source could have been 80MB or more.

What we are complaining here about is something else - it's called dynamics compression. Try and google the term "Loudness War" if you wish to know more, but in short, it's a trend to have music as loud as possible. To achieve that an engineer has to reduce the difference between softer and louder moments in music. In some cases it's a good thing (when used in moderation) but currently it has been so abused the audio quality suffers immensely, making all instruments compete against each other, often covering themselves (in some cases a keyboard solo makes the guitars or drums suddenly become softer). Sometimes this makes the sound become muddy (although there are many other reasons for that, too) or create a "pumping" effect where, for example, each hit of the drums makes other instruments become quiter for the duration of the drum. It can also lead to... fatigue. You may stop listening to a modern album release after a few songs even though you love all of them and not be quite sure why exactly you did it.

Actually, "we're" complaining about both. What you describe above is true, however if you add that lossy mp3 or iTunes compression on top of it when ripping a CD, it just makes it worse..... and it is  noticeably worse. It's also a second digital conversion. The more conversion processes, the worse it sounds.

[snapple]

the wah part sounds very Awake to me

[Kotowboy]

This is the " Caught In A Web " Of this album

I actually listened to The Enemy Inside last night at a nice volume and then On The Backs Of Angels after -

Backs Of Angels actually sounded a bit worse production wise - quite boxy in comparison and mid-rangey.

So I think The Enemy Inside sounds better - if only for having louder drums.

And I can listen to it fairly loudly quite comfortably and it doesn't sound *that* compressed to me...

It doesn't crackle in the really loud parts - at least not that i've noticed.

[Kotowboy]

I really liked TEI first listen and it is still growing on me because I am not overdosing on it.  When OTBOA came out, I listened to it many times per day and while I think it was and is a great song, the enjoyment of the discovery period wore off pretty quickly. I am only listening to TEI a couple of times per day and I am still learning it and finding new and cool aspects to the song.  Kinda like taking your time on a fine meal rather than shoveling it in as quickly as possible.  I like this approach better.

I'm only listening to it maybe once a day too. I want to be able to still listen to it when the album arrives. . .

[Kotowboy]

With regards to compression... I bought the single from iTunes, and I can hear some compression, but I think that's true of all mp3s and digital music (at least in my experience it is)... I plan on buying a physical copy of the CD and ripping it into my computer, rather than buying the album through iTunes. Does ripping a CD into iTunes compress the same way buying the CD through iTunes does? I'm not enough of an audiophile to know for sure.

I remember I bought the single for OTBOA through iTunes and it was all compressed and sounded muddy (more so than TEI due to the drums being so low) But when I bought the CD everything was much clearer, so I got rid of the single and ripped that into iTunes and everything was fine.

You can choose to import CDs into Itunes in WAV format so the quality lost will be negligible. I usually go for 320. It's perfectly acceptable to me.

[BlobVanDam]

With regards to compression... I bought the single from iTunes, and I can hear some compression, but I think that's true of all mp3s and digital music (at least in my experience it is)... I plan on buying a physical copy of the CD and ripping it into my computer, rather than buying the album through iTunes. Does ripping a CD into iTunes compress the same way buying the CD through iTunes does? I'm not enough of an audiophile to know for sure.

I remember I bought the single for OTBOA through iTunes and it was all compressed and sounded muddy (more so than TEI due to the drums being so low) But when I bought the CD everything was much clearer, so I got rid of the single and ripped that into iTunes and everything was fine.

You can choose to import CDs into Itunes in WAV format so the quality lost will be negligible. I usually go for 320. It's perfectly acceptable to me.

The problem with WAV is that it doesn't support tags. For lossless I like FLAC, although it's not quite as supported as WAV (although any good PC media player will support it). You still get some decent compression, plus tags.
For most of my music, I find 320kb mp3 just fine too. I've ripped a few albums in lossless, but only a handful.

[Kotowboy]

I'm reminded of the days when to hear a new song online - you had to stream it via Real Player or something equally as hideous and it was like 92kbps and

sounded like it was underwater.

[Bolsters]

You can choose to import CDs into Itunes in WAV format so the quality lost will be negligible.

It isn't negligible, it's non-existant. WAV files ripped from a CD are just the raw data, no conversions or anything, just straight copying.

Also, using lossless formats like FLAC or ALAC, despite there being an encoding process and data compression, don't degrade sound quality at all either. It's just a different way of storing the same information.

Because of this, it's pretty much redundant to rip CDs as WAV because there's no benefit to that over FLAC/ALAC and it's actually less convenint (higher file sizes and no tagging) - unless you're using some ancient player that can't play either format (I'm not sure if anything made in the last 10 years wouldn't play at least one of them). If you're using iTunes and want to rip to lossless, you'll be going with Apple's ALAC format.

[Perpetual Change]

on an unrelated note, i just stumbled upon the Warner page promoting the "lyric video" to the song (german):

https://www.warnermusic.de/news/2013-08-08/the-enemy-inside-lyric-video

Something strange about that picture, isnt it? 

What's wrong with it, other than the arm in the top left corner?

I don't get it either. What's wrong with it?

[Kotowboy]

They changed the pic.

It was a pic of the band minus John Myung.

[Kotowboy]

You can choose to import CDs into Itunes in WAV format so the quality lost will be negligible.

It isn't negligible, it's non-existant. WAV files ripped from a CD are just the raw data, no conversions or anything, just straight copying.

I wanted to say that but chose my words carefully in case someone on the board knew better than me

Evidently they do

[aprilethereal]

They changed the pic.

It was a pic of the band minus John Myung.

The same pic, just without the ninja? That's hilarious

[Kotowboy]

Well it was a different picture entirely - JM had been cropped out for some reason.

[dparrott]

Mangini doesn't have a fat cigar? He needs a stogie.

This is DT12 not Load. 

[dparrott]

This is the " Caught In A Web " Of this album

Nah, it's not THAT good...

[PixelDream]

I'm surprised to see so many folks, even over here, not aware of the difference between MP3 compression - dynamics compression.

Just watch this video for a good, boring explanation, taking you 1:52 minutes of your time. Thank you. 

[The Letter M]

I'm surprised to see so many folks, even over here, not aware of the difference between MP3 compression - dynamics compression.

Just watch this video for a good, boring explanation, taking you 1:52 minutes of your time. Thank you. 

...What video?

-Marc.

[theseoafs]

This one.

[wolven74]

I'm probably mistaken (I'll be relieved if I am) but take a really close look at the pic. Does it look to anyone else as though JM has shoulder length hair? It could be back behind him, but to me it looks as though it's the same length as MM. 

[BlobVanDam]

I'm probably mistaken (I'll be relieved if I am) but take a really close look at the pic. Does it look to anyone else as though JM has shoulder length hair? It could be back behind him, but to me it looks as though it's the same length as MM. 

I just checked the high res that was posted earlier, and it's not cut, it's just brushed behind his shoulders. Nothing to worry about.

[?]

Pigs and cows will have wings before JM cuts his hair

[soulburner]

I think PixelDream meant this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ
It's short and very informative.

[Groundhog]

Because I've seen the words mix and master used pretty much synonymically all over this thread... mix and master are completely different things! A little summary for those who are not that much into the technical part of recording music:

Mixing is balancing the levels of each individual track. Pretty much the studio version of what an engineer does at the mixing desk in a live concert situation. More of this, less of that, those two up, that one down, this goes left, while the other one goes right. Many of us felt that the drums on ADTOE and JLB's voice on TEI were mixed too low. Most of the times those are very conscious creative decisions and not necessarily mistakes, no matter what we might think about them. We may not agree with all of those decisions but DT albums never suffered a case of really bad mixing (only a few strange bits and pieces here and there).

Mastering is the process of preparing the final mix for production, making sure the mix sounds good on a wide range of systems, repairing little flaws in the mix that have gone unnoticed, finding the best possible equalization for each medium (CD, vinyl, stream, ...), equalization across all tracks, and finally taking care of volume, dynamic range, compression, and limiting. That final part is where 90% of the problem we're discussing happens.

Everything is pushed as close to (and sometimes beyond) the limit as possible until even a moment of silence between two powerful jolts of sound is perceived as loud. That will obviously result in a loss of dynamics and it also leads to the seemingly contradictory effect that turning up the volume will actually decrease the amount of details that you'll be able hear. The individual tracks from mixing become less and less audible and turn into one undifferentiatable mass. Last but not least it's also very tiring for one's ears.

Thanks for petrucciing bearing with me and my hectoring, I'll try not to do that kind of ranty and teachery stuff too often, but I just can't help myself, I'm feeling like I'm going out of my head with this topic sometimes.

Greetings...
Nef

This is all very true, but there are also exceptions to when dynamic range compression is done. Nowadays mixers have been starting to compensate for loud mastering. Meaning that if mixer knows that a record will be brickwalled in mastering it will affect the mixing stage. So in those cases the mix is already compromised. And let's not forget Death Magnetic which was already brickwalled before the mastering.

[TheGreatPretender]

I think people make too big of a deal out of the whole compression issue. At least in this particular case. Listening to Dream Theater albums, never in my life, have I felt like I was experiencing that "Wall of sound" effect, or any kind of audio issues. Yes, I can hear the compression, but it's never diminished the quality of the audio for me. And yes, I am picky about having good quality music, but I can still enjoy a dynamically compressed song if it's well produced.

What's more, I constantly hear complaints about clipping. Here's the thing, I don't necessarily have the greatest audio system in the world, but what I do have still makes the music sound fantastic. It can play the music loud and clear and crisp. And I've never had any clipping issues. Certainly not with DT albums. What I never understood is the people who have these high end, audiophile sound systems, and then they complain about clipping, and it's like, if it's going to make the music sound worse, why even have a super amazing audio system?

[Ben_Jamin]

 

Because I've seen the words mix and master used pretty much synonymically all over this thread... mix and master are completely different things! A little summary for those who are not that much into the technical part of recording music:

Mixing is balancing the levels of each individual track. Pretty much the studio version of what an engineer does at the mixing desk in a live concert situation. More of this, less of that, those two up, that one down, this goes left, while the other one goes right. Many of us felt that the drums on ADTOE and JLB's voice on TEI were mixed too low. Most of the times those are very conscious creative decisions and not necessarily mistakes, no matter what we might think about them. We may not agree with all of those decisions but DT albums never suffered a case of really bad mixing (only a few strange bits and pieces here and there).

Mastering is the process of preparing the final mix for production, making sure the mix sounds good on a wide range of systems, repairing little flaws in the mix that have gone unnoticed, finding the best possible equalization for each medium (CD, vinyl, stream, ...), equalization across all tracks, and finally taking care of volume, dynamic range, compression, and limiting. That final part is where 90% of the problem we're discussing happens.

Everything is pushed as close to (and sometimes beyond) the limit as possible until even a moment of silence between two powerful jolts of sound is perceived as loud. That will obviously result in a loss of dynamics and it also leads to the seemingly contradictory effect that turning up the volume will actually decrease the amount of details that you'll be able hear. The individual tracks from mixing become less and less audible and turn into one undifferentiatable mass. Last but not least it's also very tiring for one's ears.

Thanks for petrucciing bearing with me and my hectoring, I'll try not to do that kind of ranty and teachery stuff too often, but I just can't help myself, I'm feeling like I'm going out of my head with this topic sometimes.

Greetings...
Nef

It really sucks that everything is pretty much mastered for ipods. If you want to blame anything, blame those. Since no one listens to cds anymore...that's why the masters are loud to be played loud enough to cancel out outside noise, yet itssad most turn it up loud and destroy their ears.

[PixelDream]

I think PixelDream meant this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ
It's short and very informative.

Hahaha thanks, I'm such a douche 

[aprilethereal]

I think people make too big of a deal out of the whole compression issue. At least in this particular case. Listening to Dream Theater albums, never in my life, have I felt like I was experiencing that "Wall of sound" effect, or any kind of audio issues. Yes, I can hear the compression, but it's never diminished the quality of the audio for me. And yes, I am picky about having good quality music, but I can still enjoy a dynamically compressed song if it's well produced.

What's more, I constantly hear complaints about clipping. Here's the thing, I don't necessarily have the greatest audio system in the world, but what I do have still makes the music sound fantastic. It can play the music loud and clear and crisp. And I've never had any clipping issues. Certainly not with DT albums. What I never understood is the people who have these high end, audiophile sound systems, and then they complain about clipping, and it's like, if it's going to make the music sound worse, why even have a super amazing audio system?

This post really needed to be done