Dream Theater self titled album discussion - [SPOILER FREE DISCUSSION ONLY]

[hefdaddy42]

I heard once that if you like a song straight away, it's not a good song.

Well, I was told if you dream of the next world you'll find yourself swimming in a lake of fire.

Didn't stop me.   

[bosk1]

Same here.

[TheAtliator]

semi thematic

Ok is that what we call I&W, Awake, 6doit, and 8vm too?

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

I heard once that if you like a song straight away, it's not a good song.

Well, I was told if you dream of the next world you'll find yourself swimming in a lake of fire.

Didn't stop me.   

[JayOctavarium]

semi thematic

Ok is that what we call I&W, Awake, 6doit, and 8vm too?

Idk about Images and Awake... but SDOIT had a slight theme going on with the tracks, as well as Octavarium.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Six Degrees didn't really, except the title track.

[BlobVanDam]

semi thematic

Ok is that what we call I&W, Awake, 6doit, and 8vm too?

Idk about Images and Awake... but SDOIT had a slight theme going on with the tracks, as well as Octavarium.

Personally I'd only count Awake and Octavarium. I don't know where IaW and SDOIT come into it.

[JayOctavarium]

semi thematic

Ok is that what we call I&W, Awake, 6doit, and 8vm too?

Idk about Images and Awake... but SDOIT had a slight theme going on with the tracks, as well as Octavarium.

Personally I'd only count Awake and Octavarium. I don't know where IaW and SDOIT come into it.

I thought 6DOIT was supposed to kinda have a theme... but now that I think of it, I'm thinking of 8VRM.


and yea Awake too. YOU ARE RIGHT DAMMIT.

[bosk1]

SFAM is the only true concept album the band has.  Octavarium definitely has a concept or theme, and arguably, Six Degrees does as well.  None of the other albums do, although many fans feel that there is a loose concept overarching some other albums as well.  If you want to argue that that's the case, go for it.  But it is something you are reading in after the fact that is not intended by the band to be an overarching theme or concept and probably doesn't really exist as such.  But if anyone wants to further discuss the issue, please start a separate thread on that subject rather than taking this one off topic.

[Joshin U]

I feel like this thread hasn't gone 3 pages yet discussing this "concept album" stuff

[Dellers]

I heard once that if you like a song straight away, it's not a good song. It's weak and you will soon lose interest. But if it takes time and you start to enjoy it after a few listens, then it's a strong and good song.

If that was true I would still not have had the pleasure of listening to a good song. Music speaks to me instantly. One listen is more than enough, and I don't need several listens to appreciate what I hear. Several listens can make me notice more details, but it won't change my view about the song.

[sueño]

I would assume that most people who really appreciate progressive music understands and like the fact that albums that takes a few spins or more before settling in is for the most part a good thing within this genre. I love the process when an album unexpectedly hits you. 

Atleast that's what I love about music in general and what keeps it fresh, those moments when you find music that speaks to you by not following what you instantly prefer.

I heard once that if you like a song straight away, it's not a good song. It's weak and you will soon lose interest. But if it takes time and you start to enjoy it after a few listens, than it's a strong and good song.

That's not true at all. The amount of time it takes you to like a song has no bearing on how good or bad that song is, or its longevity. That reads like anti-pop propaganda.
There are songs I loved on first listen that I still love after over a decade (or two). There are other songs that took me a while to get into, and still faded away.

Listen to this man.

Also, there are some songs I loved straight away, that I found less interesting later on.

And finally, there are songs that sucked at first, and still suck.

Agree with all that.  And I am not "anti-mainstream music" in the least.  If I like it, I like it -- doesn't matter to me if a million other people or just a few do, as well. 

There is also music that grew on me as I gained appreciation for the genre.  Jazz has a similar quality.  There were certain tunes I didn't care for as a young person that I absolutely LOVE now that I've "grown up". 

The complexity was more than I was interested in at first.  Rather like coming to love coffee, wine, whiskey.  Most of my acquired tastes have become passions for me.  I can see prog becoming that way.   

[noxon]

If i read my old reviews of the previous DT albums, I rarely agree with them fully Funny how letting things age changes perspectives about things. I mean, I even understand why certain people got pissed at my reviews...

I can't even remember the last time i played systematic chaos or black clouds and silver linings...

[Shadow2222]

  I swear we have this exact same, "Will this album sort of have a concept and What previous DT albums were concept albums?"" discussion every album cycle.

[Labrie1984]

A dramatic turn of events showed, in my opinion, that Labrie can create incredibly beautiful vocal melodies if he is allowed to. Let's see what he brings this time.

[DreamerTV]

I swear we have this exact same, "Will this album sort of have a concept and What previous DT albums were concept albums?"" discussion every 5 pages.

[Shadow2222]

I swear we have this exact same, "Will this album sort of have a concept and What previous DT albums were concept albums?"" discussion every 5 pages.

You know, quite true. I do feel like it subsides a little bit after an album is out for a couple months, and then once the next one is announced, it begins again. A true cycle.

[JayOctavarium]

I swear we have this exact same, "Will this album sort of have a concept and What previous DT albums were concept albums?"" discussion every 5 pages.

You know, quite true. I do feel like it subsides a little bit after an album is out for a couple months, and then once the next one is announced, it begins again. A true cycle.

We move in ciiiiiiiiiiiircles...

[bosk1]

Okay, look--when a say a subject is off topic, a string of posts about how it is off topic is still off topic.  Please drop this and get back on topic.  Thanks.

[Eren]

Btw, that string part has to be super sad, if you listen to what Jordan says right after. You can find the argument we're discussing from 1:14 to 1:55 of the last In The Studio video.

It's not sad. It's very warm and heartfelt.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Okay, look--when a say a subject is off topic, a string of posts about how it is off topic is still off topic.  Please drop this and get back on topic.  Thanks.

Perhaps discussion of the Amazon pre-order would be better off in this thread?

[Shadow2222]

Okay, look--when a say a subject is off topic, a string of posts about how it is off topic is still off topic.  Please drop this and get back on topic.  Thanks.

Sorry, didn't see your post.

Anyways, I just hope we do get the preorder information soon, because the collector in me needs to know what will be included in the big deluxe boxset this time.

I have a feeling it will be identical to the ADTOE one, with the Special Edition album (CD/DVD), Lithograph, Vinyl, and a very small chance to win something like a Meet and Greet.

[bosk1]

Anyways, I just hope we do get the preorder information soon, because the collector in me needs to know what will be included in the big deluxe boxset this time.

A few sites have pre-order information up, but as is the case when distributors jump the gun, the information is not complete.  I cannot give any details, but I have seen the schedule, and you can trust me that information on pre-orders will be available soon.  Just hang tight.

[The Stray Seed]

Btw, that string part has to be super sad, if you listen to what Jordan says right after. You can find the argument we're discussing from 1:14 to 1:55 of the last In The Studio video.

It's not sad. It's very warm and heartfelt.

So you're reading us, Eren. This is great!

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

I would assume that most people who really appreciate progressive music understands and like the fact that albums that takes a few spins or more before settling in is for the most part a good thing within this genre. I love the process when an album unexpectedly hits you. 

Atleast that's what I love about music in general and what keeps it fresh, those moments when you find music that speaks to you by not following what you instantly prefer.

I heard once that if you like a song straight away, it's not a good song. It's weak and you will soon lose interest. But if it takes time and you start to enjoy it after a few listens, then it's a strong and good song.

I just wanna clarify that i'm not saying music that hits you immediately is something I don't prefer, it dosen't matter if you like a song/album instantly or it takes X amount of spins before. There are songs/albums that no matter how hard I try they never seem to get to me and others hits me instantly like a freight train and vice versa.

The important part is that there's no rule that "good music" should be hard to listen to, it's just that it's more fun and awesome when it happens unexpectedly....that's all. Just to give an example, Haken's Vision.....I struggled a bit to understand or feel that album but the more I listen to it the more I felt the need to continue listen to it, pretty weird but a lovely thing.

You see i'm a deep believer that alot of people even if they are a musician or not tends to being drawn to things that they can relate to in music like a certain recurring melody, chord harmony, guitar riff, rythm pattern, overall music theme etc. It can also be more general like a certain genre that you really love being for whatever reason. The main thing is that you unintentionally or not listen for those things to determine if you like a certain song or not. That's just a simple fact and for the "casual" listener that don't listen to music for the craft or art, it's the only thing they need to enjoy a certain song. To put it simple: They wanna hear a certain musical "hook" and without that, it's pretty much no music for them. It's not a demand it's just the only thing they "can" judge a song on. (I'm talking in general terms just to be clear).

Don't get me wrong i'm in no way criticizing this process or badmouthing it, it's just a natural process we all use and it can be applied to anything in life like our favourite art, movie, music, sport, food etc. We just like and feel comfort in having a reference point to something.

I do myself always try to surpass that point and force myself to listen to music I necessarily don't prefer (force is a stupid word because it's not a hard task for me to listen to music with a open mind). In lack of a better word, as a freelancing musician i'm "trained" to do that. I play alot of music I don't listen to which also gives me a chance to appreciate things in the music you don't hear or feel only as a listener. Even if I despise the music it can still be fun to play, weird right! I rarely despise music though but you get what i'm saying.

*End of my rant, don't mean to derail the thread so please go on discussing DT12 because this was mostly for my selfish need of completing a topic I lost track of...so I just stop right here. 

Actually I should have started a seperate thread for this.....damn!

Plz continue.....so DT12 huh! 

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

^^ This is an excellent post.

[wolven74]

I will say this. For me the "listen once = love" and the "it takes multiple spins to really appreciate something" arguments are both valid. In DT context I'll use Octavarium as an example. For both the song and the album as a whole, the first time I heard it I was disappointed. For the first few spins I was disappointed. On the album I thought the guitar tone sounded garbled, a little too dark. The drums were simple when compared with most of what MP was doing at the time. I didn't understand how DT could go from such a balls heavy sound on ToT to so mellow and simple a sound on 8VM. That feeling stuck with me for about a month or two after I got the CD.

Then I got MPs In Constant Motion instructional DVD and listened to it, watched him play Panic Attack, saw how complicated the drum were as he broke it down. Watched him play Never Enough live on there, and I started to get it. I gave the CD a few more turns and I really started to appreciate the songs for what they were. Listened to the lyrics more. I just "got it" after a few more spins.

Then there's the other side of the argument; the "listen once = love" side. For this I'll used Awake. The first time I'd listened to Awake, after I'd been into DT for a while I was like this fucking rules. Now, like some people, I heard Lie first, and didn't think much of it. It was definitely heavier than anything on I&W, but the first time I heard that was in the video for it, and I was like, "eh... ok" but when I got the album I was like, holy shit this has balls. When I first spun it, I didn't look at the liner notes, so the first time I heard Erotomania, I kept expecting vocals to come in. It wasn't until maybe 4 minutes in that I realized it was an instrumental. And I was like Every song I heard on the album, even Lie after I'd heard it with everything else, instantly kicked ass.

ADTOE was the first album of DTs that for me had a real uncertain wait time for me, because up until that time I'd been a huge MP fan. To me, he could do no wrong. I did see a turn in their music style that I didn't much care for, with everything having to be heavier and darker. I didn't realize unitl after he left that that was his influence. When I first watched the drummer auditions I was convinced that MM would be able to play the songs the best, and I was thrilled when they chose him. But I was still uncertain of his sound, his toooone. When I first heard OTBoA, I was thrilled, that it was a complex song, that the drums were reletively complex, that indeed, MM could deliver. Like a lot of people, when I first heard it, I was like, "Where's the drums? I don't hear the bass drums. I can barely make out the cymbal work." But, the more I listened to the song, I grew to love it and when the album came out, I was instantly like, "Fuck yeah! This is what I wanted. "

So, I know DT12 might take a few spins, It might take just one. To me it doesn't matter. I've grown to love DT as a band, both musically and their individual personalities. I know that their music is good, whether it's softer like 8VM or eat my ass n balls heavy like SC and BC&SL. With every album DT puts out, my main thought is, "I can't wait to hear what they do next." That's my sentiment this time too. I can't wait to hear what they do next, with Mangini unleashed. It's going to be great.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

^^ This is an excellent post.

More on topic, what does everyone think will be on the deluxe edition of DT12? They don't have the drummer documentary this time. Maybe a "making of" documentary?

[Voices]

^^ This is an excellent post.

More on topic, what does everyone think will be on the deluxe edition of DT12? They don't have the drummer documentary this time. Maybe a "making of" documentary?

That would be cool...I love things like that, like they did back in SC. And surely, this writing/recording process has a lot of cool stuff for the fans.

[wolven74]

^^ This is an excellent post.

More on topic, what does everyone think will be on the deluxe edition of DT12? They don't have the drummer documentary this time. Maybe a "making of" documentary?

I hope they do something like the in studio vids, but more in depth. I feel like with the 2-3 minute vids we're getting on Youtube, we're missing a lot. Hopefully they'll add a DVD of the making of that will fill in the holes. Something akin to what they did for SC would be amazing. That's what I'm hoping for.

[Jinx]

Anyways, I just hope we do get the preorder information soon, because the collector in me needs to know what will be included in the big deluxe boxset this time.

A few sites have pre-order information up, but as is the case when distributors jump the gun, the information is not complete.  I cannot give any details, but I have seen the schedule, and you can trust me that information on pre-orders will be available soon.  Just hang tight.

Yes. Soon.

[dparrott]

I'm hoping for a "Making Of" doc, I love those.

I usually judge music right away.  For example with OTBOA, BMUBMD, Constant Motion and TDEN I was like "yeahhhhhh!"      I either feel it right away or mostly not at all.

The only recent song that I liked after a few listens is Lost Not Forgotten.  I played ADTOE plenty of times, just can't get into the rest of it.  Not saying it sucks, I just don't rock out to it like I do to others.

I hope DT12 has a lot of "instant" moments. 

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

^^ This is an excellent post.

More on topic, what does everyone think will be on the deluxe edition of DT12? They don't have the drummer documentary this time. Maybe a "making of" documentary?

I would love a making of, infact I would be fine by just hearing MM talk about his passion for spicy food. I just love him talking passionately of things. 

[Voices]

I was thinking that a 5.1 version of the new songs would be great too.

[emtee]

TBH all I really want is the music. If there are special editions offering extra songs I'll go for that. My past history tells me I will
watch a making-of 1 time and never again.