TPOF's Overly Wordy Top 50

[Scorpion]

See, I'm in the same boat as TPOF. I enjoy every part of SDOIT, except for the Overture and Losing Time, but due to their vastly different moods and the lack of transitions in most cases, I find it very hard to listen to it in one sitting. I prefer listening to parts of the song - aside from WIMH/TTTSTA, which belong together, they all work as standalone pieces very well, even better than in the context of Six Degrees (the song).

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Hmm, it seems our tastes have finally diverged. I pretty much always listen to Six Degrees in full. I usually listen to the Score version though.

[Scorpion]

I feel like I should be outraged and post something semi-witty about us no longer being friends or something, but I guess you're still okay.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Also, The Dark Eternal Night is Dream Theater's best song.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

#16.) Metropolis

A classic example of how DT could make the long, complex instrumental sections work effortlessly in the old days. There's so many compelling riffs, leads, solos, and unisons. We even get to see Mike and JM take solos here, which is always a treat for me. And James' vocals on the LATM version really elevate the song as well--I'm a sucker for a good F#.

So it's great. I don't see exactly why it's occupied such a hallowed space in the DT catalog--it doesn't strike me as too far above most of the rest of the album, and the fact that the instrumental section basically takes up half the song does interrupt the flow a bit. It's great, but not quite as legendary as some make it out to be compared to DT's other big high points.

#15.) The Spirit Carries On

As with Metropolis, this song is certainly one of DT's more famous, as they seemingly trot it out endlessly in live settings. It becomes tricky to rate such songs, as one has to decide if the song is overrated, so overrated it's underrated, or something else entirely. I'm putting it here.

This is another song that gets a boost from live renditions, where it transforms from being an excellent ballad to being a really huge experience. It's so well-put-together melodically, Mike's drumming is spectacular, and the whole thing just ignites live when James is on. Jordan's piano work is fantastic as usual, and JP's solo is great, even if the flurry of notes at the end always felt a bit forced and gratuitous.

#14.) Peruvian Skies

This is the song that really got me to reevaluate Falling Into Infinity. And what a song it is. Like Afterlife, it packs a lot into a fairly constrained format, but what makes it especially interesting is the two halves of the song--light and heavy--and how well they interact with each other. Most notably, the sudden realization of how great the intro riff works as a Metallica riff is just immense. James does a great job conveying the emotions of the song while still having, to use MP's term, "balls." John's solo coming out of the bridge is great, and it starts off one of the best riff-heavy instrumental sections the band has ever put together. This is yet another song that slays live--just look at the High Voltage clip for proof, complete with the requisite A5 in the final chorus.

#13.) Pull Me Under

So overrated it's underrated. Pull Me Under holds up just a tad better than Metropolis, Under A Glass Moon, Surrounded, and Take The Time. The reason why, I think, is because it's so vocal-heavy, giving the arrangement a sense of dynamism that really makes DT's music so transcendent when it clicks. It is a bit of a simmerer rather than an exploder, and I'm not a fan of the sudden cutoff at the end, but it really is a neat encapsulation of everything DT is about, even if it seems like an odd choice to have been the one song that actually made a commercial dent.

#12.) Voices

The best song on Awake, largely thanks to another intricate arrangement that weaves instrumentals in and out rather than just clustering them. Compared to the rest of the album, James doesn't quite deliver here, but the rest of the band picks up the slack. JP and Mike especially stand out, with Mike keeping the drums especially inventive and John delivering one of his best and most unique solos, as well as some great riffs in a variety of different styles.

[?]

Surprising to see Peruvian Skies so high, but it's a good song and the rest are great, except TSCO.

But SDOIT outside the top 20?

I don't have it in my top 60

[Ruba]

TPOF, now we're talking! 

[nicmos]

Spirit Carries On is overrated.  you got that right.  Other than that, some good comments on these tracks.  I could see putting Metropolis higher as I've learned to love it more over the years, but it's probably not above 8th or 9th in my book.   Peruvian Skies is the opposite, I've like it less as the years  have gone by.  The ending instrumental section is great, but the beginning of the song leading up to that just drags way too much and I have a thing against rock songs with slow tempos.  The word "plod" comes to mind.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

#11.) Another Day

My favorite DT short song. This is one of the few time where my love of '80s hair metal really betrays itself when it comes to DT's music. First off, this is the singular most difficult DT vocal song, and James executes it beautifully on the album version. The triggered pulse of MP's drums seems more appropriate here than on most of the rest of the album. Kevin, JM, and JP all are quite tasteful throughout, and JP's solo is righty often hailed as one of his most underrated, adding a classic '80s feel while still feeling like a JP solo. It's also a very unique song in the DT catalog, which makes its tremendous execution stand out.

#10.) The Glass Prison

After all these years, I still get chills at the beginning of this song. There's still something special about it--DT's first foray into the modern metallic terrain that would characterize a lot of their later work--with the ideas sounding very fresh and inspired. JP's riffs, solos, and leads are all over this song, as are Mike's furious double-bass gallops. James and Jordan seem to be still trying to acclimate themselves to the style, something which was an ongoing struggle in DT's mid-career period, but the song's epic metallic scope and inspired guitar, drums, and arrangement make it a classic nonetheless.

#9.) Home

Another absolute classic that announces its presence with perhaps the best riff in Dream Theater history. DT's music coalesces so tremendously when JP's riffing is on; it's really a huge difference-maker. James steps up and delivers one of his best post-accident album performances, notably one of DT's catchiest choruses. Of course, JP's solo is a huge moment as well. I've never cared much for the outro, but this song stands as a monolithic masterpiece even with its removal.

#8.) Octavarium

Now we get to the point where the song start to be really close together. I don't have a runaway #1 song or a runaway top 5; the division line is right here, where I could rank my top 8 in almost any order. Yes, I'd be fairly comfortable with Octavarium as my #1 choice.

But it ends up here. Why? Well, first, let's look at why it's so great. The last two movements of the song are absolutely huge, which provides such a fitting cap to a 24-minute journey and really makes everything before even better in retrospect.

The reason why it ultimately falls to #8 is that the preceding three movements--particularly "Medicate" and "Full Circle" are a bit humdrum. Not bad by any stretch, but there's little hint of the extraordinary payoff for much of the song. In some ways, that functions to make the ending all that more satisfying, but it does make the song a slight chore at times if you're looking for something with a bit more energy.

#7.) The Best of Times

Here's one that's nowhere near Octavarium on most people's lists, but is right next to it on mine. Surprisingly, it's for basically the same reason.

John Petrucci's guitar solo in the song is not just my favorite JP solo--it's my favorite guitar solo in general. Specifically, the way it interweaves the song's majestic musical motifs with an ever-building sense of techicality and virtuosity is the pinnacle of what progressive metal guitar soloing is all about. It's a huge moment of release. I've talked about momentum a lot with this top 50, and this song ends with some of the most explosive momentum in the band's history.

Do the parts before the solo measure up? I don't think this is more than a back-end Top 50 song without the solo, so in a sense, not really. But the repetition of the main motif sets up the solo brillantly, and the song is just half as long as Octavarium, so there isn't as much time to wait around for the big moment to kick in. Further, while much of the song is fairly plodding and merely nice, nothing is bad or disruptive, with a lot of pleasant, affected melodies, a nice string break from Jordan, and generally tasteful contributions from all the members. If you know that such a transcendent solo is coming, it really makes the rest of the song a lot more exciting, too.

[Scorpion]

While I agree that Intervals is an amazing climax in Octavarium, Razor's Edge just feels needlessly tacked on after that. And while I agree with what you write on The Best of Times (though I don't worship that solo QUITE as much, though it is very, very good), I would never have a song where I find large parts of it tiresome to listen to this high on my list - which is the reason that I left Octavarium off completely, incidentely.

Though I am happy that Octavarium's out of the way. It does not, under no circumstances, ever deserve the top spot in any list.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

While I agree that Intervals is an amazing climax in Octavarium, Razor's Edge just feels needlessly tacked on after that. And while I agree with what you write on The Best of Times (though I don't worship that solo QUITE as much, though it is very, very good), I would never have a song where I find large parts of it tiresome to listen to this high on my list - which is the reason that I left Octavarium off completely, incidentely.

Though I am happy that Octavarium's out of the way. It does not, under no circumstances, ever deserve the top spot in any list.

\o

I really love Octavarium, but I'd love it more if it ended after LaBrie screams that last "OC-TA-VA-RI-UM!".

[Scorpion]

I'll admit, after I saw that you had posted, I was thinking that this might be the second thing that we disagree about, but everything is right in the world again.

[BlobVanDam]

While I agree that Intervals is an amazing climax in Octavarium, Razor's Edge just feels needlessly tacked on after that. And while I agree with what you write on The Best of Times (though I don't worship that solo QUITE as much, though it is very, very good), I would never have a song where I find large parts of it tiresome to listen to this high on my list - which is the reason that I left Octavarium off completely, incidentely.

Though I am happy that Octavarium's out of the way. It does not, under no circumstances, ever deserve the top spot in any list.

You be trolling.

Octavarium deserves its spot here.

But please tell me ACOS is out of the way. Now that's a hugely overrated song that doesn't deserve any top spot.

[Lucien]

While I agree that Intervals is an amazing climax in Octavarium, Razor's Edge just feels needlessly tacked on after that. And while I agree with what you write on The Best of Times (though I don't worship that solo QUITE as much, though it is very, very good), I would never have a song where I find large parts of it tiresome to listen to this high on my list - which is the reason that I left Octavarium off completely, incidentely.

Though I am happy that Octavarium's out of the way. It does not, under no circumstances, ever deserve the top spot in any list.

You be trolling.

Octavarium deserves its spot here.

But please tell me ACOS is out of the way. Now that's a hugely overrated song that doesn't deserve any top spot.

And so the battle between Blob and Scorpion (8VM vs. ACOS) rages on!

[nicmos]

count me on Team Blob here...

[Lucidity]

See, I'm in the same boat as TPOF. I enjoy every part of SDOIT, except for the Overture and Losing Time, but due to their vastly different moods and the lack of transitions in most cases, I find it very hard to listen to it in one sitting. I prefer listening to parts of the song - aside from WIMH/TTTSTA, which belong together, they all work as standalone pieces very well, even better than in the context of Six Degrees (the song).

I completely agree with this. I hate it when people talk about Six Degrees like it's one song. It's not. It's fine to listen to in one sitting, but each part is its own song, and I think of them as individual DT songs. And they generally work better on their own than with their transitions, save for WIMH.

[BlobVanDam]

See, I'm in the same boat as TPOF. I enjoy every part of SDOIT, except for the Overture and Losing Time, but due to their vastly different moods and the lack of transitions in most cases, I find it very hard to listen to it in one sitting. I prefer listening to parts of the song - aside from WIMH/TTTSTA, which belong together, they all work as standalone pieces very well, even better than in the context of Six Degrees (the song).

I completely agree with this. I hate it when people talk about Six Degrees like it's one song. It's not. It's fine to listen to in one sitting, but each part is its own song, and I think of them as individual DT songs. And they generally work better on their own than with their transitions, save for WIMH.

It is, whether you think it works as one or not. It is a song. Personally, I have never once listened to it in sections, only as a whole (and it's my #1 or #2 DT song, so that's a lot).

[Scorpion]

Lo and behold, I actually agree with Blob. It's a song, and that's that - if the band calls it that way, that's good enough for me. The fact that I don't listen to it that way very often (though I have been listening to the whole thing more and more in recent times and even Losing Time is slowly growing on me) doesn't change that.

With regards to Octavarium: I actually listened to it again yesterday and it's not THAT bad. It's still the most overrated track that DT have ever recorded and not deserving of a very high spot on a list, in my opinion., but there are some sections that I legitimately love. It's just... I think you said something similar about Scarred a while ago: if the whole fanbase absolutely goes nuts over it, it becomes far harder to remain indifferent towards a song and it slips into outright dislike quite often.

So yeah. I don't hate Octavarium, even though it does seem like that on occasion.

Though ACOS is still superior in musics and lyrics.

[BlobVanDam]

With regards to Octavarium: I actually listened to it again yesterday and it's not THAT bad. It's still the most overrated track that DT have ever recorded and not deserving of a very high spot on a list, in my opinion., but there are some sections that I legitimately love. It's just... I think you said something similar about Scarred a while ago: if the whole fanbase absolutely goes nuts over it, it becomes far harder to remain indifferent towards a song and it slips into outright dislike quite often.

I doubt I ever said that about Scarred, since I'd have an equally negative reaction to that one regardless.
I may have said that for one of the other DT songs I think are hugely overrated, probably LTL, which while it wouldn't make my top 50, I don't dislike anywhere near as much as the impression I may give when everyone's gushing over it.

And concerning ACOS vs 8V, I'll give you lyrics, but musically, Octavarium slays it by so much there's no comparison imo.

[Scorpion]

Yeah, or that. Anyway, I know that you said something about some song like that (woohoo specific!).

Anyway, I still like you, I mean, you like Steel Panther, that counts for something.

[Zydar]

And concerning ACOS vs 8V, I'll give you lyrics, but musically, Octavarium slays it by so much there's no comparison imo.

[BlobVanDam]

Yeah, or that. Anyway, I know that you said something about some song like that (woohoo specific!).

Anyway, I still like you, I mean, you like Steel Panther, that counts for something.

Usually around here that doesn't count for anything, so you're alright.

[Full Speed]

When it comes to DTs longer 20+ min epics, ACOS is the only one that would be near the top of my list. 8VM and 6DOIT both have parts that I really like, but as a whole I don't really like either very much. Now ACOS would be in my top 10 for sure.

[Lucien]

I can listen to Octavarium, and it feels like 5 minutes before the song is over.

ACOS still feels like 23 minutes. It's a chore for me to sit through. 

[nicmos]

ACOS still feels like 23 minutes. It's a chore for me to sit through. 

Yep, pretty much.  I gave up my ACOS CD a long long time ago (in a previous century to be exact), and every once in a while I will listen to it online to see if I missed something compelling and to see if I change my mind.  But it never happens.  I'm fine not owning it.

[Lucien]

The only part of ACOS that I actually like is the guitar part at 8:46.

[Lucidity]

I can listen to Octavarium, and it feels like 5 minutes before the song is over.

ACOS still feels like 23 minutes. It's a chore for me to sit through. 

Agreed.

[Dream Team]

I'm not going to bother to partake in the crazy ACOS vs OV argument, but am posting to say  for representing The Best of Times. In general, I appreciate songs that convey/try to convey genuine emotion over dissertations about vampires and freemasons. Kudos to MP for the raw emotion of this song, though of course there are some issues with the delivery (IMO James is flat and lifeless in the verses). With a couple of slight improvements, this could have been recognized more widely as an all-time DT classic. And yes, that solo is the bomb.

[Lucidity]

And concerning ACOS vs 8V, I'll give you lyrics, but musically, Octavarium slays it by so much there's no comparison imo.

Agreed completely. When I start Octavarium it feels like I'm starting a magical journey. Thoroughly entertaining all the way through. ACoS is a fantastic song, that's certain, but it isn't nearly as cohesive, dynamic, and beautiful as Octavarium in my opinion.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

#6.) A Change of Seasons

Well, it seems everybody's talking about this one in the thread already, which leads in nicely to this ranking. Yes, it comes in two spots ahead of Octavarium, though as stated earlier, I could really put songs 1-8 in any order and feel it's a satisfying reflection of my opinions.

ACoS represents a bit of a moving target to evaluate for me, because I'm a big fan of both the Kevin Moore-era version and, ironically, the Jordan Rudess-era version. That's nothing against Derek Sherinian or his specific parts, but I do feel that the signature versions of this song are the live KM one and the one on Live Scenes From New York; they both explode with an energy that's missing in the studio version.

The KM-era song has more impressive, over-the-top instrumentation, and a huge, satisfying ending (my goodness, those James F#s!), while the later version's ending seems like more of a letdown in comparison. However, the later reworkings do provide the huge climax of the song in "Another World" and also improve the lyrics. If we ever saw a version that combined the strengths of both, this would probably be my favorite DT song. As it stands, though, the "main" version of the song doesn't quite land on the huge, satisfying epic note that I'd like it to (it doesn't help that James' vocals toward the end seem quite pitchy), which makes it somewhat less climactic than Octavarium. It is the more consistently interesting song musically, though, so ultimately it just barely wins out.

#5.) The Ministry of Lost Souls

Yeah, a lot of people hate this song. Yeah, the instrumental section doesn't really get off to a good start, sliding into chugging near-thrash riffs for no apparent reason and then appending jarring, silly organ leads. It's not perfect.

But I absolutely love it. The vocal sections are majestic, playing off a really interesting chord progression that JP and JR both frame well. The guitar lead that serves as a break and then an outro is one of the most understated and yet titanic things in DT history. If you take out the instrumental section, the song is a startlingly tasteful and well-executed piece even without introducing much of DT's signature technicality, a la Anna Lee.

What of the instrumental section, though? Much has been made of its out-of-placeness with the rest of the song, and I think the first half of it is somewhat inappopriate and quite ineffective. However, once JP's searing solo kicks in, the song regains all its momentum and then some, and it transitions extraordinarily well from that frenetic run into first a beautiful unison, then a nice harmony lead, and finally the final piano verse. It's not like Outcry where the vocals come back and you have to reorient yourself, because the section lets you down in a familiar place. That allows it to steadily build momentum for its final six minutes, culminating in the stunning ending with the ascending lead and increasingly manic drum fills.

#4.) In The Presence of Enemies

I almost put this one first, but just couldn't bring myself to do it. This is the polar opposite of Octavarium--a song that packs all its greatness into its first nineteen minutes, then sputters toward the finish line. I do think the first nineteen minutes of the song--from the first note through "IT'S TIME FOR YOUR RECKONING"--is the most consistently awesome stretch of Dream Theater music in one song, ever. People love Part I, and it is great, though more than half of it is just an overture, requiring the meat of Part II to really flesh out all its potential. "Heretic" and especially "The Slaughter of the Damned" rank at or above any DT metallic material. Systematic Chaos was the album where James really found his metal voice that had been missing since Awake, and it shows here, augmenting the heavy passages instead of pushing against them. There's an unending supply of big vocal melodies and guitar riffs that lead to one explosive section after another.

And then "The Reckoning" kicks in, and everything grinds to a halt within two minutes as the band pointlessly explores circular riffs that go nowhere. The solos are humdrum, and by the time the band downshifts back into the finale, no amount of affected pseudo-balladic bombast can really elevate the song's conclusion to anything above ordinary. It's quite a disappointing finish to a song that was so consistently excellent for such a large portion of such a long runtime.

Still, 19 minutes of consistent metallic greatness is nothing to scoff at for someone with my metal-oriented tastes. It's a hell of a ride.

#3.) Learning To Live

Of I&W's epics, this one shines the brightest, mostly because it was the first glimpse of DT's capabilities across a song that stretched over ten minutes. The F# is legendary, of course, and James is terrific throughout. It should also be noted how much this song does with solos without going too over the top technically--just look at JP's solo immediately after the F# or Kevin's solo in the tradeoff section for some really terrific leads that aren't cluttered with flurries of notes. The song illustrates, perhaps more than anything else in DT's career, their gift for making even the most obscure time signatures and arrangements flow naturally and sound downright accessible, even. I do wish it had a few more vocal sections to balance out the density of instrumentals, but unlike the songs above it, every bit of the song is compelling.

#2.) In The Name of God

Every bit of this one is compelling, too, only stretched out over an even longer runtime and with the added bonus of DT having figured out metallic textures. In The Name of God appears on an album that's far more one-dimensional than the one that contains Learning To Live, but in a lot of ways, the metallic bent of Train of Thought makes the downshifts of the song stand out and lend increased dynamism to the track. Sure, it's metal, but we've got a clean guitar intro, a mostly guitarless first verse, and all sorts of piano flourishes, including in the chorus and extended outro.

The metal elements are in full swing, but they're right there with ITPOE as the pinnacle of the band's metal career. JP, Jordan, Mike, and even JM are all on the top of their games, including in the unbelievably technical instrumentation section that is so mindblowing that I never even think "Is this connected to the song?" As with TMOLS, the song does a really good job getting from the instrumental shredding back to the familiar vocal territory without alienating its sense of songcraft, this time using an awesome drum breakdown.

James is notably not at his best on the track, but it hardly matters, because the melodies work well and all the parts are fantastic. The song pushes through with momentum all the way until the end with a fantastic outro. Just a tremendous, exhilarating, and truly epic track, start to finish.

I'll reveal #1 tomorrow! I wonder if anyone can guess what it is...

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Great choices. It's good to see In The Presence... up so high, it's a great song. In The Name Of God is good, but not one of my favorites from TOT.

Oh well, that's what opinions are for.

[BlobVanDam]

Some oddball picks there among some obvious ones. Aside from ITNOG, I don't think any of them would make my top 50 though. (are we still doing the BVD drinking game?)

But ITNOG is a top 5 for me, so that gets a

[nicmos]

Love the entertaining writeups.

completely disagree with 6,5, somewhat disagree with 4 but it's arguable, 3 is right where it should be, and mostly disagree with 2.

I still think this thread is great, I feel like your passion for the songs really comes out.  You've pointed out some things about those songs that may be overlooked, and it's appreciated.

[Lucien]

Very surprised at Ministry.

I have absolutely no idea what your #1 is.

[425]

#5.) The Ministry of Lost Souls

Yesyesyes! This is an absolutely brilliant song that rarely gets the love it deserves. I agree that the beginning of the instrumental is a bit jarring, but I honestly don't think the "Wanting to deserve a place..." part would have the same power if it didn't come after that instrumental section. Brilliant piece of music, the whole thing.

I also can't argue with the In The Presence of Enemies, In the Name of God or Learning to Live. Since the thread has already been headed in that direction anyway, I will say that I think A Change of Seasons is too high, but overall this is a excellent list.

Unless I'm missing something, you've pretty much already placed the obvious #1 choices elsewhere on your list. I'm going to throw out a couple of unconventional guesses to see if I stumble upon it:

The Dark Eternal Night
Sacrificed Sons