Jordan's use of string/choir patches

[In The Name Of Rudess]

Just something I was thinking about: Over the last few albums DT seem to have steadily increased their use of string/choir patches. I think this has had some negative consequences namely:

To my ears the patches sound quite synthy and fake. This could just be because I primarily listen to classical music and am thus used to hearing real orchestras so it may not be true for everyone. I think there are several reasons as to why this could be the case: it could be that the patch just sounds fake/bad, which seems unlikely since Jordan probably has access to the best patches there are. Nevertheless, maybe even those don't sound quite like the real thing, modeling a whole orchestra into software must be quite a challenging endeavour. Another reason why the patches don't sound their best could be because in particular the string and choir arrangements written by DT are very uncharacteristic as far as common practice orchestra and choir arrangements go which definitely has the potential of making the tone less realistic. There are 2 possible reasons for this: either Jordan doesn't care about whether or not the orchestra sounds like an orchestra and the choir sounds like a choir, or he doesn't have the experience required to write "proper" arrangements (not a dig towards him BTW, making good arrangements with complicated harmonies is a trade in itself). The latter seems more plausible since he hired another guy to make the arrangements for Explorations and any purely instrumental orchestral arrangements that he has done like the Overture from SDOIT aren't very good arrangement-wise. Even if the patches sound ace, in order for them to sound realistic you still need to really mimic the ways in which a real string section or a real choir would play. The final reason I could think of is the way the strings are put into the mix which could make them sound more bad/artificial than they would otherwise.

Another important reason why I think it could be useful to cut back on strings and choirs is that it makes the sonic landscape of the music quite predictable and repetitive. It's like every time there is a chorus or verse with some space to fill up => string/choir patch. Hey this here should sound epic => string+choir patch. This is especially noticeable in choruses which over the last few albums have severely lacked timbral variety IMO. Imagine if they just tried to write a few songs without strings, this would lead to far more engaging harmonic interplay than just shoving a few strings parts under it.

So yeah just a little blurb of thoughts, I'm not even sure if anyone else feels like this but yeah. I think DT's music would sound better if they had someone to write proper arrangements for them and if they used a real choir/orchestra. Other bands have already done this with great results and DT surely have the dough. Even bands like Dimmu Borgir who are quite a bit below DT in musicianship have songs with good, real orchestras and good arrangements and it just sounds way better IMO.
Any thoughts?

[noxon]

You do know that the new album contains orchestrations done by a real orchestra?

[In The Name Of Rudess]

You do know that the new album contains orchestrations done by a real orchestra?

I didn't. That's pretty cool. Does The Enemy Inside already feature the real orchestra?

[serrano]

Octavarium also featured a real orchestra.

[BlobVanDam]

Octavarium had an orchestra too.
I'm not seeing a problem with JR's use of strings. They're not always trying to sound like a real orchestra. It's just a nice timbre to use. Awake was full of string patches too, and those were very synthy sounding, used more often than JR does, and very basic octave strings, not an attempt at a realistic string arrangement. But they just sound nice!
Also, a lot of it is in the mixing so it fits in with the rest of the instruments, which can leave it sounding thinner and lacking the warmth and realism that it would have alone.

[In The Name Of Rudess]

Octavarium also featured a real orchestra.

Okay, cool, that's the only album I don't own yet, so I'll be getting that.

I'm not seeing a problem with JR's use of strings. They're not always trying to sound like a real orchestra. It's just a nice timbre to use.

It's precisely the timbre that I have a "problem" with so to speak, it just sounds like a surrogate orchestra to me. It could definitely be that I'm in a great minority here and that Jordan himself also thinks it sounds fine, but for me the timbre is exactly the thing.

Awake was full of string patches too, and those were very synthy sounding, used more often than JR does,

Yes, but in those days I feel it was acceptable for strings to sound very synthy. I personally listen to albums from that era in a different way, so whereas the strings there don't bother me that much, if you put synthy sounding strings in a modern production like they have done over the past few albums it's more out of place sounding, if you get what I mean.

[noxon]

At least the first and the last song on the new album contains orchestration, as confirmed by interviews and reviews lately.

[BlobVanDam]

Yes, but in those days I feel it was acceptable for strings to sound very synthy. I personally listen to albums from that era in a different way, so whereas the strings there don't bother me that much, if you put synthy sounding strings in a modern production like they have done over the past few albums it's more out of place sounding, if you get what I mean.

But synth strings have become their own sound separate to that of real strings, and it's not usually intended to sound realistic or to be arranged or performed as a real orchestra. I think you're judging it to a standard it was not designed to be measured by.

Just listen to the strings patch in The Enemy Inside. To me they're definitely not trying to sound like a real orchestra. They'll filling sound space with a soft synthy pad sound to contrast the tone, attack, and role of the heavy guitars, filling the very same kind of role that it does in a song like Metropolis back in 1992. There's no difference, and nor does there need to be. You're thinking of it as a substitute for an orchestra, but it's just another synthetic sound used to serve a purpose in the music.

[Chino]

I wish JR used more string patches TBH.

[noxon]

I like organs myself.

[Mosh]

I don't care for the string patches that much. I know they're not really meant to replace a real orchestra, but I still don't like the sound. It cheapens the final arrangement IMO.

[JPX]

I wish Jordan would use more grand piano and perhaps throw in some chiptune patches 

[Orion1967]

You also do realize that while Jordan does make use of synth generated string pads he also uses a lot of sampled stuff too... I mean the bulk of the voices I have heard him using are most certainly spectrasonics stuff whcih are sampled.

[TheGreatPretender]

I really didn't like Jordan's use of String and Choir patches on ADTOE.  I felt like they ruined the vibe of BMUBMD, and overdramatized Outcry.

[?]

I like organs myself.

You mean massive organs?

[TheGreatPretender]

I like organs myself.

You mean massive organs?

Dirty organs.

[Dark Castle]

I wish Jordan would tinker around with a harpsichord, I love those things.

[Lucidity]

I wish Jordan would tinker around with a harpsichord, I love those things.

The only thing that could make me more excited is JP playing a banjo.

[aprilethereal]

I don't mind Jordan's string and choir sounds. He used them heavily on ADTOE, and I really enjoyed that.

Octavarium also featured a real orchestra.

Okay, cool, that's the only album I don't own yet

Get it immediately!

I like organs myself.

You mean massive organs?

Dirty organs.

"This is not what it looks like. It really isn't."

[Onno]

I like organs myself.

You mean massive organs?

Dirty organs.

Like bloody guts in the sand?

[Eren]

There's a very straightforward reason for this I believe. He 'plays' the patches, mostly sampled into Kronos. For an orchestral sequence, you'd need to record midi, add expression/velocity xf/keyswitch etc. all those little details that make the most out of orchestral samples. All the best sounding orchestral sample libraries out there are made to be programmed very carefully, not to be played throughly. Also it's still considered a 'keyboard/synth' part, not an orchestral part. As nature of keyboards, it might have been got close to realism, but no ever patch is perfectly playable with a result of a great sound, in terms of orchestra. Maybe pizzicato.

On the other hand, I always think the same and I believe there can always be improvements; DT always deserves a real orchestra and real arrangements when there is an orchestral part. But, it is quite expensive to do so. You are either like Metallica and have a lot of money, you hire London Symphony Orchestra, or you're like Within Temptation you have government support for Metropole Orchestra, or you're like DT you still want to have an orchestra for your anniversary show, and put custom musicians together and call it Octavarium Orchestra.

Well anyway, seems like there actually is some real arrangements/orchestra involved for the upcoming album. I think you'll be satisfied.

[(nothing)]

(I'm answering in the spirit of the above post)

I think it's safe to assume that most of these patches Jordan uses come from stuff like Omnisphere/Alchemy (which I know for a fact that Jordan uses) and maybe Kontakt, which all manipulate samples of real instruments and choirs. Occasionally he does of course use purely synthesized sounds for this purpose (e.g. the sounds in Overture sound synthesized to me although there is a lot of layering going on) but when we're talking choirs, it's certainly a synth engine processing choir samples. But yeah, the fact that everything ends up being MIDI can turn out to be a limitation when it comes to making things sounding realistic. From that point on, you'll probably want to render to audio and manipulate that, do overdubs or whatever it takes to make it sound more realistic.

But for me you're kind of missing the point here. Like you mentioned the arrangement in Overture which to me sounds amazing. It actually gives me chills every times I hear it. And, trust me on that, I can be a huge geek and very picky when it comes to thinking about what sounds are being used or how it sounds overall. So yeah, can't really say that any of this ruins the listening experience for me.

[Metabog]

The whole point of using a synth strings patch is for it to sound like a synth. There are so many bands actually using older instruments like the ARP Solina which sounds nothing like a real orchestra but sounds really cool, or the mellotron.

[Sycsa]

I like organs myself.

Yep. Wish Jordan would at least use a real Leslie speaker like Derek did, it would make him sound a hell of a lot more organic.

[m0hawk]

Dunno about you guys, but I absolutely loved the way BMUBMD ended. It elevated the song from being a generic rocker to what it is. Definitely the most "evil" part of the album.

[aprilethereal]

I like organs myself.

Yep. Wish Jordan would at least use a real Leslie speaker like Derek did, it would make him sound a hell of a lot more organic.

[Daso]

While it does fit in certain parts, the use of orchestras or string sections does sound out of place every now and then, just like (in my opinion) it did in Outcry and Sacrificed Sons. Not necessarily Jordan's fault, it just feels like it is out of place in those songs; those type of "Hollywood sections" pretty much do not fit in some songs.

[GandL]

So much things in the way we personnaly get into it or not, the way it sounds realistics or way off like Mellotron, so much way to appeciate it has a new sound or think it is fake reproduction. For myself, I like the use of all this stuff, but off course, I like his piano playing, so much more natural playing for him I think.

[Sycsa]

I like organs myself.

Yep. Wish Jordan would at least use a real Leslie speaker like Derek did, it would make him sound a hell of a lot more organic.

Yeah, it was intended.