The book Petrucci based his SDOIT lyrics on

[ZirconBlue]

Worst.  Argument.  Ever.

[BlobVanDam]

Of course you can prove your point! You only need to fine one other instance of a sentence to prove it. If you can't find even one other occurrence of sentences that you've implied aren't that unique, then your argument is very weak.
A general belief that it has been written before and will be written again is not evidence, it's baseless speculation. If you won't do the leg-work to support your claim at all, then don't make the claim and try to argue it.

You're now basically arguing that nothing written in the past 20 years contains a unique phrase, because the English language is used up, so nothing can count as plagiarism. I don't even want to think about what your thoughts are on copying music, since there are only 12 unique notes in western music. Surely everything's been written there too.

[Mindflux]

Worst.  Argument.  Ever.

Not asking anyone to like it.. I just think those offended by what DT allegedly did are going overboard.

[Mindflux]

You're now basically arguing that nothing written in the past 20 years contains a unique phrase, because the English language is used up, so nothing can count as plagiarism. I don't even want to think about what your thoughts are on copying music, since there are only 12 unique notes in western music. Surely everything's been written there too.

No, I'm arguing that this book isn't old enough to be the source OF the unique phrase, I just don't see it.   Of course new writings can count as plagiarism..  but a couple phrases are not blatant plagiarism.. taking paragraphs or pages would be obvious plagiarism. 

[Perpetual Change]

You're now basically arguing that nothing written in the past 20 years contains a unique phrase, because the English language is used up, so nothing can count as plagiarism. I don't even want to think about what your thoughts are on copying music, since there are only 12 unique notes in western music. Surely everything's been written there too.

No, I'm arguing that this book isn't old enough to be the source OF the unique phrase, I just don't see it.   Of course new writings can count as plagiarism..  but a couple phrases are not blatant plagiarism.. taking paragraphs or pages would be obvious plagiarism.

It IS the source. Everyone who's actually looked at both sources is convinced of that.

Whether that matters or not, or counts as plagiarism, I don't know. I don't think it's a big deal.

But denying it completely just makes it seem way worse than it really is.

Kinda reminds me of when Vanilla Ice explained how "Ice Ice Baby" wasn't "Under Pressure".

[Mindflux]

It IS the source. Everyone who's actually looked at both sources is convinced of that.

Whether that matters or not, or counts as plagiarism, I don't know. I don't think it's a big deal.

But denying it completely just makes it seem way worse than it really is.

Kinda reminds me of when Vanilla Ice explained how "Ice Ice Baby" wasn't "Under Pressure".

So you're saying that thousands of books written prior to 1999 could not POSSIBLY contain a phrase used in the book and then re-used by DT? So this book is the ONLY place those words have ever been written or uttered in that order other than on SDOIT?

[Mindflux]

dupe

[Perpetual Change]

So you're saying that thousands of books written prior to 1999 could not POSSIBLY contain the phrases used in the book and then re-used by DT?

Possibility has nothing to do with probability. In this case, probability that at least some of JP's songs in the SDOIT suite were partially based on this particular book has been pretty convincingly demonstrated.  Feel free to point out other possibilities, but unless you've got something better, I'm not sure why you'd discount research other people have done in favor of the "limitless possibilities".

That's what most people base their beliefs on: what they find "probable", rather than what they find "possible". If you're not like that then fine, honestly, I'd love to hear what you have to say on a number of topics 

[Mindflux]

Possibility has nothing to do with probability. In this case, probability that at least some of JP's songs in the SDOIT suite were partially based on this particular book has been pretty convincingly demonstrated.  Feel free to point out other possibilities, but unless you've got something better, I'm not sure why you'd discount research other people have done in favor of the "limitless possibilities".

That's what most people base their beliefs on: what they find "probable", rather than what they find "possible". If you're not like that then fine, honestly, I'd love to hear what you have to say on a number of topics 

I just don't find it likely that the book in question is the first use of these phrases EVER.  I'm not doubting that JP got the phrases FROM this book since it's the most recent (known) book to have them since SDOIT came out.. I'm just saying if you are going to call out DT on it, why would you not question the author's originality too?

[BlobVanDam]

Possibility has nothing to do with probability. In this case, probability that at least some of JP's songs in the SDOIT suite were partially based on this particular book has been pretty convincingly demonstrated.  Feel free to point out other possibilities, but unless you've got something better, I'm not sure why you'd discount research other people have done in favor of the "limitless possibilities".

That's what most people base their beliefs on: what they find "probable", rather than what they find "possible". If you're not like that then fine, honestly, I'd love to hear what you have to say on a number of topics 

I just don't find it likely that the book in question is the first use of these phrases EVER.  I'm not doubting that JP got the phrases FROM this book since it's the most recent (known) book to have them since SDOIT came out.. I'm just saying if you are going to call out DT on it, why would you not question the author's originality too?

Probably because we have absolutely zero evidence of the original author lifting any direct phrases or sentences from anywhere else. Why would we question this at all? The only person who believes it is you, and yet you have zero evidence to support it other than apparently wishful thinking.

[Mindflux]

Probably because we have absolutely zero evidence of the original author lifting any direct phrases or sentences from anywhere else. Why would we question this at all? The only person who believes it is you, and yet you have zero evidence to support it other than apparently wishful thinking.

Wishful Thinking? Nah.... just pessimism toward originality.

[GasparXR]

Probably because we have absolutely zero evidence of the original author lifting any direct phrases or sentences from anywhere else. Why would we question this at all? The only person who believes it is you, and yet you have zero evidence to support it other than apparently wishful thinking.

Wishful Thinking? Nah.... just pessimism toward originality.

So what you're saying is you don't like originality, and you're attitude towards it is to deny its credibility wherever possible and not back up your claims?

[Orbert]

It's a book of case studies in a specific medical discipline.  The cases may not be unique, but the individual subjects are, as is the author.  We're not talking about about "They looked into each other's eyes" here.  We're talking about documentation of medical cases in a field which has not actually been around that long, and certainly not to the degree of sophistication it has reached recently.  It is actually far more likely than not that the specific combinations of words used are unique.

But believe whatever you want.  Obviously nobody here is going to convince you otherwise.

[Mindflux]

So what you're saying is you don't like originality, and you're attitude towards it is to deny its credibility wherever possible and not back up your claims?

No, I like originality.. I just don't seem to find much of it anymore. I don't have to back up my claims to keep believing what I believe, YOU want me to back them up to prove the contrary which I have no desire to do.

[BlobVanDam]

It's a book of case studies in a specific medical discipline.  The cases may not be unique, but the individual subjects are, as is the author.  We're not talking about about "They looked into each other's eyes" here.  We're talking about documentation of medical cases in a field which has not actually been around that long, and certainly not to the degree of sophistication it has reached recently.  It is actually far more likely than not that the specific combinations of words used are unique.

But believe whatever you want.  Obviously nobody here is going to convince you otherwise.

Why even bother posting? Every single combination of words you have just written has been used before. Every. Single. Damn. One. Why, I just googled for exact phrase matches of "But believe whatever you want" and got over 300,000 results. You hack. I mean, it's ok, because you're copying 300,000 people, not just one, so I'm cool with it, but whatever, dude.

[Mindflux]

Why even bother posting? Every single combination of words you have just written has been used before. Every. Single. Damn. One. Why, I just googled for exact phrase matches of "But believe whatever you want" and got over 300,000 results. You hack. I mean, it's ok, because you're copying 300,000 people, not just one, so I'm cool with it, but whatever, dude.

You hack! I've seen these words before. 

[GasparXR]

So what you're saying is you don't like originality, and you're attitude towards it is to deny its credibility wherever possible and not back up your claims?

No, I like originality.. I just don't seem to find much of it anymore.

That seems to be because either you're very stingy about what is original or not, and/or you're purposefully looking for ways that things are similar, and in the latter case of COURSE it's going to happen that things may be similar. Some of the phrases in the book may have been said/used before, but the fact is, we have no proof that they were actually lifted from another source other than the thought processes of the person writing it.

[Mindflux]

That seems to be because either you're very stingy about what is original or not, and/or you're purposefully looking for ways that things are similar, and in the latter case of COURSE it's going to happen that things may be similar. Some of the phrases in the book may have been said/used before, but the fact is, we have no proof that they were actually lifted from another source other than the thought processes of the person writing it.

I probably am stingy about it. For example, I don't like movie sequels (for the most part) because IF the script was originally written for one movie in mind and it did well at the box office so they hack together another 7 scripts to make a big series of it.   Shrek is generally my example here. Shrek 1 was great, it did so well at the box office they milked it because it was a cash cow.

"Cougar town" on TBS is just "Friends" (NBC) with a different title and older age group.

and so on and so fourth.  I've become ESPECIALLY cynical about it in the last 10 year where it's become evident that Hollywood has run out of ideas and they're just rebooting old movies with new cast and slight tweaks to make another $100 million.  This has leaked into books and music as well. 

[bosk1]

And once again, people insist on making this personal rather than making whatever points they want to make and moving on.  Need I remind overyone what happened the first time around with this topic?  Keep it civilized and on topic, or the thread gets locked and other unpleasant things possibly happen along with that.  Thanks.

[Perpetual Change]

Mindflux, I gotta ask: have you seen the original thread on this topic?

The reason I'm asking is, about to crash made it pretty clear that not just certain lines and combinations of words were similar, but that the concept of the suite also seemed based around the case studies in Schwartzberg's book.

At the time, the main question being argued over was whether or not anyone should care. Some people thought that what about to crash presented it was evidence of "plagiarism", while others were like, "eh, comes with the territory. No big deal." Even people belonging to the latter group, like myself, were acknowledging that the book seemed like JP's likely inspiration, based on the examples about to crash had posted.

about to crash hasn't repeated much of the evidence laid out in the initial thread here, so if you haven't actually seen that, I understand why you might be so skeptical. 

[Mindflux]

Mindflux, I gotta ask: have you seen the original thread on this topic?

No, I never did.

[bout to crash]

I will refrain from commenting on some of the above stuff (other than ) but would be glad to repost some of the examples from the book if you guys want.

[Fiery Winds]

I will refrain from commenting on some of the above stuff (other than ) but would be glad to repost some of the examples from the book if you guys want.

But that would be plagiarism!!!

[bout to crash]

 

[ytserush]

I will refrain from commenting on some of the above stuff (other than ) but would be glad to repost some of the examples from the book if you guys want.

Nothing like facts to spoil a good debate...

[bout to crash]

Heh. Luckily, some of my OP still exists thanks to some dude who quoted it last year...

Case 4: Bipolar Disorder

Thirty-year old Audrey Samson briskly paced the short length of the psychiatric evaluation unit of her local hospital. "Where's my manuscript? Where's my pen? Dr. Spock is obsolete! Child-raising, child-rearing, experts, experts, and more experts! I'm rewriting it all, for mothers everywhere! Revamping patriarchal society's version of bringing up baby. It takes a village, I know that much, Hillary Clinton. They're expecting me in Washington, and I've got work to do, I'm the one for the job!"
Mark, Audrey's husband... His eyes were red-rimmed from lack of sleep. A social worker with the hospital's psychiatric crisis service watched Audrey... "I've never seen her get this bad," Mark told her....
Mark stood by helplessly. He knew it was useless to try to reason with Audrey...

Audrey Samson was raised in a midwestern university town...

(her father): Always mercurial, however, he could just as easily be exuberantly charming and funny... barely taking a break... 

...Audrey was a driven student, even as a young girl... her drive toward achievement seemed endless...

...By mid-semester, she was sleeping 14 to 16 hours per day...

For the remainder of her college years, Audrey resumed her energetic pace, much to her advantage.....boundless energy...


From the schizophrenia chapter:



On first appearance, Roger Larkin looked and sounded like an average 25 year old.... Still, she remembered him as basically a healthy and "normal" baby.His infancy was uneventful, and he met important developmental milestones, such as learning to crawl, walk, and talk, on time. He was fussy in that he did not care to be held very much, but in most other regards he seemed no different from other infants......


As a boy, Roger was considered by his parents and teachers to be somewhat odd and isolative. He often had a "spacey" quality about him, tending to daydream in class and drift off into his own world. He kept to himself most of the time.

... He spent a great deal of time by himself. He began keeping an elaborate notebook, filling it with writings, drawings, and poems.

...She also hoped that moving away from home might help break Roger out of his solitary shell

...By November, Roger had made no friends and was helplessly behind in his schoolwork...He kept as his sole companion his notebook, writing for hours at a time...



  https://www.mikeportnoy.com/aboutmike/faq/answers/13.aspx#215


"We knew once we had that we needed to come up with a concept that would tie it all together, so John and I came up with this idea of creating six different characters and each of us would write about three of them. So I wrote about three and John wrote about three. Basically, it's almost like a tour through an insane asylum where people are dealing with mental anguish, manic depression, and issues like that. So we created six different characters and tried to look at their different stories and differences in their lives, but yet the common thread that binds them all together."

[bosk1]

Cool that that still exists!

I may actually save this and ask John about it next time I see them.

[Perpetual Change]

Yeah, that's what I remembered. "About to Crash" and "Solitary Shell", the JP pieces, are the biggest parts of the suite influenced by the book.

The MP and James songs don't seem to have been at all. Aside from adhering to the general concept, which I'd imagine was pitched by John P.

[TheGreatPretender]

Hmm.... I'm wondering if JP's whole reasoning for writing it was different from the other members'. I mean, these accounts are about real people. Maybe he actually had the intention of telling these real people's stories, and enlightening the listeners with retelling of actual cases. As opposed to MP and JLB who, I'm assuming, just wrote about 'characters' with reality based concepts.

[bout to crash]

Yeah, that's what I remembered. "About to Crash" and "Solitary Shell", the JP pieces, are the biggest parts of the suite influenced by the book.

The MP and James songs don't seem to have been at all. Aside from adhering to the general concept, which I'd imagine was pitched by John P.

"Losing Time" as well (also JP), but very little:

"She dressed only in black dance garb... She never wore makeup or jewelry and kept her hair simple and unadorned."

It does present a very interesting case study for Dissociative Identity Disorder, though.

I don't think JLB wrote any of the lyrics for the title song.

The author of the book says all of the case studies are BASED on real people, but things have been changed and many are composites.

[Perpetual Change]

I thought JLB wrote "Goodnight Kiss"?

[MoraWintersoul]

I thought JLB wrote "Goodnight Kiss"?

Nope, it's MP I think. The style is really JLBish though.

[wasteland]

I thought JLB wrote "Goodnight Kiss"?

You are the second to say this in a relatively short time. Curious, but I guess those lyrics, as Milena said, sound in a way very JLB. Maybe they just miscredited the song 

[?]

I thought the "bastard doctors" line would make it clear that those are MP's lyrics!

[TheGreatPretender]

You are the second to say this in a relatively short time. Curious, but I guess those lyrics, as Milena said, sound in a way very JLB. Maybe they just miscredited the song 

The lyrics in Goodnight Kiss aren't very good. I think JLB could've done better.