Are DT missing an opportunity with their sound production?

[Perpetual Change]

I thought about this after watching the JR video awhile ago, and I think that they are, especially if you compare them with arguably their two biggest peers: Porcupine Tree, and Opeth.

5.1 Mixes
The idea struck me while I was listening to Opeth's Heritage last night. Though I got the album when it came out last year, I was recently gifted a new BluRay player and 5.1 speaker set for Christmas, so I was listening to the 5.1 mix that came with the album. To put it short, I was absolutely blown away by how awesome the album sounded. While I don't even like Heritage that much, listening to it in that format made me realize that undeniable amount of work that went into making sure Heritage was a quality sound product on every level.

The last couple of Porcupine Tree and Opeth CDs have been initially released alongside great 5.1 mixes. Although I did not care about these initially, now that I have a 5.1 system I can not think of why I would listen to music any other way, unless I am just listening to stuff on an MP3 player or in the car. And this does not apply to new releases alone; Opeth and PT have both gone back and released several of their older albums in 5.1. Dream Theater, as far as I know.

Dream Theater albums almost ALWAYS come with bonus discs, yet when it comes to 5.1 mixes, the world is pretty sparse even for DT fans who fork over the extra 5 bucks for special editions. Buying the ADTOE special edition only got us the drummer audition DVD, which was free on Youtube anyway. Likewise, Black Clouds came with an instrumental disc and a cover disc; both of those things were nice, but I almost never listen to the instrumentals. Systematic Chaos had a 5.1 mix, but it seemed (like much of the album) to have been done on-the-fly, so much so that John even implied it didn't meet his expectations.

High Quality and Lossless Formats
While I am not sure about Opeth, I know that Porcupine Tree have made several of their albums available in a number of high quality and lossless formats.  You can listen to many PT albums, and almost all new ones, or vinyls, bluray discs, or as lossless MP3s. The last few DT albums have been released on vinyl, but I am not sure what kind of work has been done into making sure they're high quality. I did not hear very good things about the Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds vinyls. Either way, while there was a really good High Quality version of ADTOE, it was expensive, and definitely felt like too little, too late. I can only imagine why it was not included with the bonus disc or even the special deluxe package.

Overall mixing and sound production
Everything Opeth and Porcupine Tree has released over the last ten years has been great sounding. PT obviously hold the advantage of being led by one of the best sound mixers in the business, but Opeth have not done poorly themselves. Many of their albums have been mixed and produced by Steven Wilson. Several have also been done by Jens Borgen, who mixed bands like Katatonia, Devin Townsend, and even JLB's Static Impulse.

DT took  baby steps away from the dubious MP/JP mixing/producing arrangement when they brought in a vocal producer for Black Clouds, and ADTOE, their first album not mixed in-house since Six Degrees, is their best sounding since... well... Six Degrees. 

I respect that John Petrucci has a passion of producing, but I'm glad he's decided to let someone else handle the mixing. And, honestly, what better way to become a better producer than to work alongside a really good producer for awhile?

While DT have continued to release and tour on great music, I do think they're missing a really obvious opportunity: They don't cater hardly enough to audiophiles, many of whom are also DT fans. It's hard to say why, because offering music in additional formats would only mean happier fans and hopefully more money for DT.

But also, audio quality is just a huge area where DT are lagging behind their two biggest peers: Opeth, and Porcupine Tree. John Petrucci has said in many interviews that DT tend to still take their examples from Rush. While that has never really failed them, unfortunately Rush is also a band notorious for mediocrity in the sound-production department of their CD-era discography.  When it comes sound quality, DT would be better off looking to Opeth and Porcupine Tree for tips. 

[Shadow2222]

I would love some Bluray 5.1 mixes. Even Rush is releasing 2112 on a Bluray shortly.

For what it is worth though (and I don't have the greatest sound system, which may be a factor), I think the SC, BC&SL, and ADTOE vinyls sound pretty good.

The Metropolis vinyl released in 2011 sounds amazing. If DT doesn't have a problem releasing vinyl versions of their older albums, I don't see why they can't start doing the 5.1 releases.

[wasteland]

I'm starting to put some thought in the purchase of a good 5.1 system, as I already have two records and in a little more than one month will receive my third album in surround quality.

I think it would be very cool if they were to enter the "audiophile" world a bit, as long as that doesn't interfere with all the rest (I don't care for a perfect sounding mediocre album, that is to say), which is something that I luckily don't see happening. So, go for it, but of course keep all the old release formats for those who are not interested or can't afford to upgrade their "playing rigs".

[Lolzeez]

If DT doesn't have a problem releasing vinyl versions of their older albums, I don't see why they can't start doing the 5.1 releases.

PLEASE! 

[Cedar redaC]

I'm no Audiophile, but I do like albums to sound good. I don't have too much experience with albums in 5.1 vs. their stereo counterparts, but I think those would be cool too.

You know who would be cool to have producing the next Dream Theater album? Arjen Lucassen. I really enjoyed the sound of The Human Equation.

[KevShmev]

In a word, absolutely.  The albums post-1997 don't sound bad (although they vary), but none of them sound sonically great.  Not a single one.  Even the best-sounding one, which is probably 6DOIT, could have sounded much better and still retained as much punch and power.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Train of Thought sounds amazing, I don't know how people don't acknowledge that. The bass sounds incredible (in difference to most post-2001 DT releases).

[KevShmev]

Train of Thought's "airy" sound goes well with the overall vibe of the album, but it is still way too compressed at times.  That same effect could have been gotten without smothering the sound.  Just listen to the beginning of This Dying Soul; it's like you can feel and hear the imaginary blanket that is over your speakers.

[Scorpion]

I not really all that picky in these regards (scratch that - I'm not picky at all), so most of this goes over my head. An album has to be produced extremely badly for me to take issues with the sound - like Death Magnetic. No DT album has ever had that effect on me.

However, regardless of my viewpoint, I agree with Joe that I think that DT would certainly benefit from doing so, even though I probably wouldn't buy a 5.1 mix or something like that, because from what I've observed, both here and IRL is that I'm certainly in the minority with this opinion, so I can imagine that many people would eat it right up.

[Kotowboy]

I think Octavarium is the best sounding DT album.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Train of Thought's "airy" sound goes well with the overall vibe of the album, but it is still way too compressed at times.  That same effect could have been gotten without smothering the sound.  Just listen to the beginning of This Dying Soul; it's like you can feel and hear the imaginary blanket that is over your speakers.

Well, yeah definitely. I still consider TOT is a nice example of loud compression that kicks you in the butt and not the other way round. The truth is that probably, the only way right now to make DT sound spectacular is to think out of the box. I mean, their mixing formula pre-ADTOE was pretty much predictable and standard. Drums right in your face, the bass drowned and lost in the midst of John Petrucci's always great sounding tone (that's something I acknowledge in every DT album, JP's tone is amazing), etc.

I think ADTOE was a step in the right direction mix-wise, but there are still things to be fixed. DT is a prog metal band, and prog metal usually makes me want to listen to every instrument involved clearly and powerfully. Lots of the vocal production in ADTOE was very poppy in terms of mix, vocals right in your face, almost everything double tracked. Take, for example, This is the Life. I love the song, and it has some incredible orchestrations, but the vocals sometimes drown that because they're way too much in the front.

I think Octavarium is the best sounding DT album.

Octavarium sounds very muddy. All the way through.

[Mindflux]

Octavarium sounds very muddy. All the way through.

adjust your speakers.

[KevShmev]

About OV, agreed; definitely very muddy, especially on the heavier tracks.  The title track, which is the only I only listen to from it any more, sounds good, though, it not being heavy at all (even when it rocks).

I hear what you are saying about ToT and prog metal; it can't be an easy genre to mix well, getting everything to sound just right, but they got it right on the 90s albums.  I was at a friend's house a few weeks ago, the one with the best-sounding stereo I've ever heard, and we blasted Space Dye Vest and both of us were still amazed at how awesome and perfect the sound of it is.  Everything sounds just right. 

[Perpetual Change]

Hell yeah, Awake sounds awesome, and it only sounds better the louder you blast it. I have a very similar experience with Fates Warning- Parallels. Great albums to listen to LOUD on nice stereos.

The Octavarium production has a nice conceptual vibe to it, but overall it's a pretty bad sounding album. The light songs sound great (the title track benefits tons from this), but the songs where Petrucci really crunches and chugs it up sound really muddy and compressed. It amazing how noticeable it is when the first riff of The Root of All Evil kicks in. 

[Dellers]

Hopefully the new album will sound really good. Falling Into Infinity still is their best sounding album by far. The later albums minus ADTOE have had a little too much high mids or treble making them a bit exhausting to listen to. ADTOE on the other hand sounds a little too soft by some reason, although the mix does sound pretty nice. It lacks some clarity and punch, and the guitars sound a little like someone put a towel around their original sound. What I wish for the most though is for the bass to have its fair share of space in the mix and not get buried. ADTOE was a bit on and off, but on FII it was generally pretty loud.

[marlencrabapple]

ADTOE was incredibly muddy sounding. Honestly, I can't help but think there's something very wrong with my headphones whenever I listen to it. It always sounds like there's just a bunch of mishmash in between the guitar and drum tracks. No bass, no keyboards, just guitar, bleh, and soft drums. A more dynamic BC&SL with louder bass would be 10/10 in my book. ADTOE was a step in the wrong direction in my opinion.

[BlobVanDam]

ADTOE was their worst mixed album since....... ever, but their best mastered album in a while. Octavarium had a pretty good mix, but the production was a bit flat, and it was overcompressed. Their last great sounding album was SDOIT (ToT would be included if not for the compression, and the keys being a bit too low, which came with the style). In conclusion, I say bring back Kevin Shirley. He is responsible for their best sounding albums, and their best sounding live album.
Their last two albums have their most inconsistent mixes, and the wonky mix of ADTOE is one reason I can't even listen to it. It sounds like a rough premix imo.

[rumborak]

Yeah, I don't think DT do themselves a favor by trying to do everything. Are they terrible at it? No. Are they good? Not either.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Octavarium sounds very muddy. All the way through.

adjust your speakers.

Got studio monitors, I'm an Audio Engineering student myself. That part is done. 

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

About OV, agreed; definitely very muddy, especially on the heavier tracks.  The title track, which is the only I only listen to from it any more, sounds good, though, it not being heavy at all (even when it rocks).

I hear what you are saying about ToT and prog metal; it can't be an easy genre to mix well, getting everything to sound just right, but they got it right on the 90s albums.  I was at a friend's house a few weeks ago, the one with the best-sounding stereo I've ever heard, and we blasted Space Dye Vest and both of us were still amazed at how awesome and perfect the sound of it is.  Everything sounds just right. 

You know? It's funny because Kevin Moore himself hates Awake's mix (Can't remember the interview where he said that right now). Maybe because it's so different to Images and Words.

[?]

5.1 Mixes
The idea struck me while I was listening to Opeth's Heritage last night. Though I got the album when it came out last year, I was recently gifted a new BluRay player and 5.1 speaker set for Christmas, so I was listening to the 5.1 mix that came with the album. To put it short, I was absolutely blown away by how awesome the album sounded. While I don't even like Heritage that much, listening to it in that format made me realize that undeniable amount of work that went into making sure Heritage was a quality sound product on every level.

I feel similarly to you - I don't have a 5.1 system myself, but I visited my friend last month and he has one. Needless to say, Heritage sounded amazing in surround sound!

It's true that PTree and Opeth have been blessed with great production for years already. I don't mind the way the newer DT albums sound, but it's been a while since they put out a release with excellent production, although they definitely have potential and resources to record one.

[nikatapi]

ADTOE was their worst mixed album since....... ever, but their best mastered album in a while. Octavarium had a pretty good mix, but the production was a bit flat, and it was overcompressed. Their last great sounding album was SDOIT (ToT would be included if not for the compression, and the keys being a bit too low, which came with the style). In conclusion, I say bring back Kevin Shirley. He is responsible for their best sounding albums, and their best sounding live album.
Their last two albums have their most inconsistent mixes, and the wonky mix of ADTOE is one reason I can't even listen to it. It sounds like a rough premix imo.

Agreed on many points. At first i was really happy with ADTOE sound compared to the crap that was SC and the better BC&SL.

BUT, the mix on ADTOE is so inconsistent, especially the drums and cymbals are so low and behind in the mix, there is so much work that goes unnoticed, especially in busy instrumental sections. I did some adjustments with the eq and suddently so many things came to life in the sound. Also, the bass is inconsistent, in some tracks it is very powerful and on others you can barely hear it.

Completely agreed on your point about the Caveman, i also think he did a great job with DT, probably the best sounding records, it would be nice if DT hired him again.
I also would like to see Steven Wilson do the mix, although many people would argue that he does softer, non-metal mixes, but i'd like to remind you he also mixed Opeth's Blackwater Park, which is an awesome sounding record.
All of Steven's recent work is incredibly balanced, you can hear all the instruments clearly and defined.

Let's see what DT have for us in the next album.

[Perpetual Change]

I still think Jens Borgen is the guy they should get. He did:

Opeth- Watershed
Opeth- Ghost Reveries
James LaBrie- Static Impulse
Devin Townsend- Deconstruction
Katatonia- The Great Cold Distance

He just seems to know exactly how a progressive metal record should sound

[wolfking]

I haven't been a fan of the production since FIF really.

[Mindflux]

I haven't been a fan of the production since FIF really.

Five Iron Frenzy? What do they have to do with DT?

[goo-goo]

I still think Jens Borgen is the guy they should get. He did:

Opeth- Watershed
Opeth- Ghost Reveries
James LaBrie- Static Impulse
Devin Townsend- Deconstruction
Katatonia- The Great Cold Distance

He just seems to know exactly how a progressive metal record should sound

agreed. would love for him to mix the new dt. dave castillo, who has mixed katatonia's last two albums can be included in the list as well.

[?]

I still think Jens Borgen is the guy they should get. He did:

Opeth- Watershed
Opeth- Ghost Reveries
James LaBrie- Static Impulse
Devin Townsend- Deconstruction
Katatonia- The Great Cold Distance

He just seems to know exactly how a progressive metal record should sound

agreed. would love for him to mix the new dt. dave castillo, who has mixed katatonia's last two albums can be included in the list as well.

Yeah, actually I'd say Castillo is even better than Bogren - NITND and Dead End Kings sound amazing!

[goo-goo]

Bogren did mix Headspace's I Am Anonymous..Wonderful album by the way.

[angelusredgrove]

High Quality and Lossless Formats
You can listen to many PT albums, and almost all new ones, or vinyls, bluray discs, or as lossless MP3s.

I did not hear very good things about the Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds vinyls.

Either way, while there was a really good High Quality version of ADTOE, it was expensive, and definitely felt like too little, too late. I can only imagine why it was not included with the bonus disc or even the special deluxe package.

Lossless MP3's arn't a thing, I think you're talking about FLAC which is another type of compressed file format, that is lossless.
I Have the BC&SL vinyl, its sounds fantastic.
The HDtracks thing seems like it was a test for the market i believe, better to have it available than not..I don't mind that it was released a little later - worth the wait IMO

[TheCritical]

The thing, that bothers me the most about their production style, is how everything is has become predictable. I already know what the heavy section will sound like or how the ballads will be arranged. I miss being suprised by them.

For me the point of progressive music is not to be a virtuose musician, but to be rather unpredictable and innovative, and not being stuck, in this case, inside the same state of production for many years and albums.

Sonically, I really dig a less compressed mastering. The dynamics of the drums, especially in heavier tracks, are really what makes it kick ass! I don't need albums to be mastered with a higher RMS for the price of less dynamics, my sound system has enough headroom to go louder.
I hate that we, the consumers, don't often have a choice to go for a more dynamic version of an album and are stuck with the overly compressed and fatigueingly loud version.

BTW My first post!

[MoraWintersoul]

The thing, that bothers me the most about their production style, is how everything is has become predictable. I already know what the heavy section will sound like or how the ballads will be arranged. I miss being suprised by them.

For me the point of progressive music is not to be a virtuose musician, but to be rather unpredictable and innovative, and not being stuck, in this case, inside the same state of production for many years and albums.

Sonically, I really dig a less compressed mastering. The dynamics of the drums, especially in heavier tracks, are really what makes it kick ass! I don't need albums to be mastered with a higher RMS for the price of less dynamics, my sound system has enough headroom to go louder.
I hate that we, the consumers, don't often have a choice to go for a more dynamic version of an album and are stuck with the overly compressed and fatigueingly loud version.

BTW My first post!

Welcome!

[Kotowboy]

I'll take Octavarium's apparently "muddy" sounding production over St. Anger & Death Magentic's ear destroyers any day.

[Lolzeez]

The thing, that bothers me the most about their production style, is how everything is has become predictable. I already know what the heavy section will sound like or how the ballads will be arranged. I miss being suprised by them.

For me the point of progressive music is not to be a virtuose musician, but to be rather unpredictable and innovative, and not being stuck, in this case, inside the same state of production for many years and albums.

Sonically, I really dig a less compressed mastering. The dynamics of the drums, especially in heavier tracks, are really what makes it kick ass! I don't need albums to be mastered with a higher RMS for the price of less dynamics, my sound system has enough headroom to go louder.
I hate that we, the consumers, don't often have a choice to go for a more dynamic version of an album and are stuck with the overly compressed and fatigueingly loud version.

BTW My first post!

Hello! 

[Marion Crane]

I think overall 6DOIT is my favorite sounding album all around.  I would LOVE to hear a Ben Grosse produced DT record though.   

[goo-goo]

I think overall 6DOIT is my favorite sounding album all around.  I would LOVE to hear a Ben Grosse produced DT record though.   

I haven't heard the name. What projects is he involved in?

Tim Palmer comes up to mind as well.