DT in the studio again!

[TheGreatPretender]

And then you have ITPOE, which, again is purely fantasy on the surface, but really is metaphorical for a more personal/universal topic, so it fits the fantasy lyrics mold, but is also intensely personal and metaphorical, so it doesn't really squarely fit the "fantasy lyrics" mold either.

That's an interesting way to look at it, but it's still fantasy in a way that it depicts the 'psychology' of the character in such vivid, literal images. It's the equivalent of someone being on the cusp of death, and have their struggle to survive be depicted as a literal war, or something of the sort. It is metaphorical, but the imagery it conveys is still fantasy. Either way, I'm all for it.

[bosk1]

And then you have ITPOE, which, again is purely fantasy on the surface, but really is metaphorical for a more personal/universal topic, so it fits the fantasy lyrics mold, but is also intensely personal and metaphorical, so it doesn't really squarely fit the "fantasy lyrics" mold either.

That's an interesting way to look at it, but it's still fantasy in a way that it depicts the 'psychology' of the character in such vivid, literal images. It's the equivalent of someone being on the cusp of death, and have their struggle to survive be depicted as a literal war, or something of the sort. It is metaphorical, but the imagery it conveys is still fantasy. Either way, I'm all for it.

Well, sure.  But the point is, isn't not just a fantasy story about demons and zombies for the sake of telling a story about demons and zombies.  It's about a much deeper, more universal subject, and the fantasy story is simply an allegory and, despite being 99% of the narrative, is really about the deeper topic.  Kind of similar to how Six Degrees takes you on a journey through stories of the mental problems of these six individuals whose stories are told, and the listener is deliberately led to believe that these six random, seemingly unrelated stories are the point of the song.  But then the band flips the song on its head when you get to the end of Grand Finale and the band drops on you that it isn't about these six individuals at all--it's about us as a society and how we react to psychological conditions and the problems that creates.  Similar idea.

[Perpetual Change]

Speaking of SC, I think it's pretty obvious now that James writes better when he's feeling, rather than thinking.

"thinking" songs
-PoW - very bad
-Blind Faith - some cool lines, but, what is he even getting at?

"feeling" songs
-Disappear - amazing
-Far from Heaven - absolutely crushing
-Vacant - heartwrenching

"bit of both" songs
-Sacrificed Songs - just OK, esp bad when he starts waxing philosophical

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

I like Prophets Of War.

[The Trooper]

You can't, lyrics aren't a subjective thing. They hit each of us differently. What may seem like high school philosophy to one person may be just the words another needs to get through hard times.

100% agree. I have a friend that is the lead singer/lyracist for a pretty popular/well known metal band. We have had NUMEROUS conversations regarding his lyrics. In a nutshell, he has said the same exact thing RJ just did.

[hefdaddy42]

Something like A Rite of Passage certainly isn't as poetic or evocative as Under a Glass Moon, but it does communicate some kind of meaning with a lot of tasty imagery.

The seven stars
The rising sun
A perfect world
Where new life has begun
A rite of passage

Yeah, it's no Voices, but it sounds lovely and certainly is evocative of the symbols and goals of the freemasons, which is exactly what it is supposed to be.

It's just a collection of Masonic imagery.  It's like a list of Masonic keywords set to music.  The words don't accomplish anything, it's just a collection of references.  Awful lyrics.

[425]

It's just a collection of Masonic imagery.  It's like a list of Masonic keywords set to music.  The words don't accomplish anything, it's just a collection of references.  Awful lyrics.

Sure they do. They provide information about the beliefs and actions of the freemasons. Whether you think that is something worthy of an eight minute song is an entirely different question, but they accomplish that. And the lyrics sound nice, aesthetically.

If you don't like lyrics that just provide information about a subject, never listen to Iron Maiden, because they have plenty of songs that do that only far more awkwardly than JP did on A Rite of Passage. Take Alexander the Great:

Hellenism he spread far and wide
The Macedonian learned mind
Their culture was a western way of life
He paved the way for Christianity

And that song is widely praised as a top 20 song among serious fans, unlike A Rite of Passage. Oh, and even those lyrics I would not consider "awful," just mediocre and sometimes awkward. I definitely did get something from them: I have a strange amount of knowledge about the life of Alexander of Macedonia.

I definitely agree with you that if we are ranking John Petrucci's lyrics, or Dream Theater's lyrics, A Rite of Passage sits near the bottom. But that in itself does not make the lyrics to the song awful. It just means that almost all of the band's lyrics are very good and that these are only mediocre. A Rite of Passage does not draw the listener in with its lyrics or break any new ground lyrically, but it does have lyrics that are not in any way noticeably awkward in phrasing (unlike the aforementioned Alexander The Great by Maiden which at one point in the song tries to fit a full date ("334 BC") into the lyrics), can provide interesting information to some listeners, and are generally at least slightly aesthetically pleasing, with some good uses of imagery. These aren't great lyrics that I'm going to go around quoting, but they are certainly not bad.

[darkshade]

Someone tried to add the new album to the Prog Archives database, but since there's no info AT ALL, the page looked silly, so I made it look sillier. Check it out before the admins there delete it.

https://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=41989

[Zydar]

Yo Mama

[mellotron_scratch]

Someone tried to add the new album to the Prog Archives database, but since there's no info AT ALL, the page looked silly, so I made it look sillier. Check it out before the admins there delete it.

https://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=41989

[Mladen]

 

I don't mind the lyrics from the last couple of releases, I enjoy some of them quite a bit, but the stuff from the 90s is much more my cup of tea, especially the really abstract stuff.

[tartarus250]

I can honestly say I like dt's lyrics old and new I mean we should try to remember that DT are primarily muso's not poets and that said I think they all do pretty well!!

[Fisi]

By the way, has anyone figured out yet what the 'Torres' channel on the mixing console showed in the trailer is? Looked quite funny to me.

When it comes to the album as a whole, I'm not really a fan of self titled albums, but it should really fit this one as it's the first one written with Mangini and all that stuff. Hope it also means that this will be the album defining the modern Dream Theater style. I really liked A Dramatic Turn of Events and I hope they'll continue on that path while simultaneously expanding to new directions and doing something more experimental. Jordan using the Seaboard is a good sign of that, and also the midi snippet posted here sounded really interesting. I also like the fact that they have the orchestra, and even cooler is that the guys in the band haven't been hyping it all the time, which probably means this won't be just a 'Dream Theater plays with an orchestra' album.

The only thing that worries me a bit is how the trailer showed that there'll be only a few keyboard solos. Hopefully it only means that Jordan has some tricks in his sleeve that are a lot cooler than solos.

[Luigi]

KM was the best DT lyricist by so far, followed by Myung and LaBrie.

[hefdaddy42]

It's just a collection of Masonic imagery.  It's like a list of Masonic keywords set to music.  The words don't accomplish anything, it's just a collection of references.  Awful lyrics.

Sure they do. They provide information about the beliefs and actions of the freemasons. Whether you think that is something worthy of an eight minute song is an entirely different question, but they accomplish that.

I don't think that's a different question at all.  Besides, I don't know that it actually does what you say it does, "provide information."  It's literally a collection of images and phrases.  Where did the masons come from?  What is their purpose?  Are they good or bad?  Is the song told from the POV of a mason or a person making accusations about masons?  I have no idea.

And something with more depth MAY be worthy of an 8 minute song.  But this isn't.

If you don't like lyrics that just provide information about a subject, never listen to Iron Maiden

I don't.

[The Stray Seed]

Music is art. Lyrics are part of the musical creation, they're not a mere caption set below the painting, they are a part of the whole. You may decide how big a part they are according to your own taste, so that it can affect more or less your perception of a song, and this is something that varies from one person to another.

Those words are called "lyrics", organized in "verses", than it looks like they really have something to do with literature. Being those a literary product, I find it fair to judge them as such.

Being literature a subject of study, and being jobs like the writer or the poet some serious professions, we may think there's a way to look at literature from an objective point of view. Because you study what is objective. You may not care much about these things, but this is exactly what is indeed subjective: your personal interest in these matters.

One may be moved by something that strikes him personally, for reasons that are subjective, and according to this he/she may like specific lyrics that are more emotionally powerful towards him or her.
One may as well be seduced by the sound of words and phrases, or by the way they are put together, with puns and similar tools (I've been trying to justify you, in the end I will just defy you), but this is only a single one of the many, many devices that can be used in a literary product, and does not suffice to make something interesting from a literary point of view.
Also, one may be interested in the informations that the text provides, but you may agree that a newspaper article is not always a literary piece.

I recognize that lyrics must necessarily use some literary aspects over others, for example rhythm and syllabication, that are essential as the lyrics are so tied to the music, as well as a strong and direct imagery to underline certain moments of the song (cant' stop this flame for burning, forever more into the night blistering). But still they have to feature a much wider set of devices and be built upon a solid theme to be of some literary value.

This is my position on these matters. One may be fond of some lyrics without any/few objective reasons and I would never dare to blame him for this, but at the same time I think one cannot say that everything about lyrics is absolutely subjective.

I know that we live in a time when people put together pebbles with chewing gum and call it art just because some critic might have recognized his personal feelings in it (and suddenly things that were made with no expenses at all start to be valued loads of money), as well as when books that are sold in million of copies are called masterpieces just because they sell. The next phrase is a personal thought: actually, I think that art today is in such a wretched state because it's become all about money. But I feel I'm on a Pindaric flight and I understand I'm going more than off topic. I allowed myself to write a post about these things just because I think that the subject is of some value.

To say something in-topic: I agree with who said that ADTOE was a step back in the right direction from a lyrical point of view, the return of Myung being certainly not a case. I am very faithful in JM's work and can't wait to hear his new lyrics.

[BlackInk]

I like Prophets Of War.

[JPX]

I like Prophets Of War.

It's nice to finally meet you. I heard there was one person that liked this song.

[Dream Team]

By the way, has anyone figured out yet what the 'Torres' channel on the mixing console showed in the trailer is? Looked quite funny to me.

When it comes to the album as a whole, I'm not really a fan of self titled albums, but it should really fit this one as it's the first one written with Mangini and all that stuff. Hope it also means that this will be the album defining the modern Dream Theater style. I really liked A Dramatic Turn of Events and I hope they'll continue on that path while simultaneously expanding to new directions and doing something more experimental. Jordan using the Seaboard is a good sign of that, and also the midi snippet posted here sounded really interesting. I also like the fact that they have the orchestra, and even cooler is that the guys in the band haven't been hyping it all the time, which probably means this won't be just a 'Dream Theater plays with an orchestra' album.

The only thing that worries me a bit is how the trailer showed that there'll be only a few keyboard solos. Hopefully it only means that Jordan has some tricks in his sleeve that are a lot cooler than solos.

I liked the direction they were headed in with ADTOE. A better balance of all elements. However, with Mangini writing his own parts, they should really fully utilize this talents for the "heavy" parts. Mangini won world's fastest drummer at least once but you don't hear any of that on ADTOE. His double-bass wasn't any faster than MP's. So when they get to a fast section of DTDT, I hope they really let the man loose.

[ZirconBlue]

By the way, has anyone figured out yet what the 'Torres' channel on the mixing console showed in the trailer is? Looked quite funny to me.

Guest Drummer: Tico Torres!

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

By the way, has anyone figured out yet what the 'Torres' channel on the mixing console showed in the trailer is? Looked quite funny to me.

Guest Drummer: Tico Torres!

[Lucien]

By the way, has anyone figured out yet what the 'Torres' channel on the mixing console showed in the trailer is? Looked quite funny to me.

Guest Drummer: Tico Torres!

[Zydar]

Yeah, MM couldn't nail this certain section of a song so they called in the expertise of Mr Torres.

[Lucien]

Anyways, I feel like this is a lucky day today.

I feel like today we're gonna hear the tracklist.

[Kotowboy]

Yeah, MM couldn't nail this certain section of a song so they called in the expertise of Mr Torres.

MM couldn't bring himself to play a backbeat for 4 minutes and Phil Rudd was busy.

[?]

Something like A Rite of Passage certainly isn't as poetic or evocative as Under a Glass Moon, but it does communicate some kind of meaning with a lot of tasty imagery.

The seven stars
The rising sun
A perfect world
Where new life has begun
A rite of passage

Yeah, it's no Voices, but it sounds lovely and certainly is evocative of the symbols and goals of the freemasons, which is exactly what it is supposed to be.

It's just a collection of Masonic imagery.  It's like a list of Masonic keywords set to music.  The words don't accomplish anything, it's just a collection of references.  Awful lyrics.

I don't find them awful but they are really lazily written, as if they were based on an article in some history magazine or Wikipedia.

[cyberdrummer]

Anyways, I feel like this is a lucky day today.

I feel like today we're gonna hear the tracklist.

Not yet. Next week maybe.

[Lucien]

Anyways, I feel like this is a lucky day today.

I feel like today we're gonna hear the tracklist.

Not yet. Next week maybe.

The only reason I say so is because two years ago, JP revealed the tracklist June 7th.

[dparrott]

I like Prophets Of War.

It's nice to finally meet you. I heard there was one person that liked this song.

Make it two!!!  Imagine what a statement a VIDEO of it would have made!  The problem with POW is that you can either agree with it, disagree with it, or not care depending on the point of view.  It's probably offended some people.

[cyberdrummer]

I also like POW. Even more controversial perhaps, I like MP's 'rap'.

[Madman Shepherd]

I like Prophets Of War.

It's nice to finally meet you. I heard there was one person that liked this song.

Make it two!!!  Imagine what a statement a VIDEO of it would have made!  The problem with POW is that you can either agree with it, disagree with it, or not care depending on the point of view.  It's probably offended some people.

Make it three.  Actually I know a lot of people that like that song. 

Aside from people griping about it being a crappy song or whatever, it is probably one of the least talked about songs due to its "controversial" subject matter.  All discussion on it was banned on Mike Portnoy's forum (who had also expressed support for the Iraq War) and I believe his only comment on it was that there are no limits on what people can write lyrics about in the band....so yeah, I've always wondered if it was a minor point of contention between Mike and James. 

[Perpetual Change]

Discussing the song was banned? WTF?

Anyway, I don't dislike it because of the message. I agree with the message. But the song just is not good, and neither are the lyrics. Also it's not really "controversial" in the slightest. By 2007 when SC came out, Bush and his wars were so unpopular especially with those in the media that agreeing with them would have been the way more controversial statement coming from a rock band.

Seems like plenty of people love it, though.

Now that is unexpected, controversial.

[aprilethereal]

I like Prophets Of War.

It's nice to finally meet you. I heard there was one person that liked this song.

Make it two!!!  Imagine what a statement a VIDEO of it would have made!  The problem with POW is that you can either agree with it, disagree with it, or not care depending on the point of view.  It's probably offended some people.

POW used to be my favourite DT song when I got into them. It's still okay, but I can't really say that I still like it.

[bosk1]

Was it discussion of the song altogether that was banned, or was it simly the discussion of the political aspects?  I know MP.com is very strict about keeping all political and religious discussion off the boards altogether, so it wouldn't surprise me.  That is basically why we have the separate P/R forum nowadays.  P/R discussion had been banned on the main part of the forum at DT.net, and rumborak and some others lobbied for a separate part of the forum where those ideas could be discussed freely without the rest of the forum devolving into political and/or religious debate, and Itchy eventually allowed it.  It has continued to this day, but even know, we keep those kinds of discussions off the main forum.

[Zook]

If you don't like lyrics that just provide information about a subject, never listen to Iron Maiden

I don't.

You OK there, Hef?