DT in the studio again!

[Luigi]

ask your brother how he can smash bricks with his head and be fine, but he dies when he touches a turtle.

About the bricks, the answer is simple: He`s a metalhead.

About the turtle thing, is even more simple: It`s a weird guy.

[DebraKadabra]

I think DT will know better than to let SC happen again.

I should hope so.

[Luigi]

Maybe DT will rehire Kevin Moore as lyrics-specialist? 

And also as a producer. He was the dream of the theater.

JP said something about the cinematic side of DT in the last video from studio. Nobody fits better than KM for that.

It would be beyond awesome.

[robwebster]

Does anyone else dislike Myung's lyrics? :/

I think they're basically pleasant, but not necessarily any better than any other band member's. If he contributed as much as John Petrucci, I reckon we'd be as split on them as we are on John Petrucci's. I don't dislike them, and I look forward to JM contributing simply for the fact that it's another voice and one we don't get to hear very often, but I also don't think they're the life-changing super-normous big deal a lot of people really do. Sometimes great, ToT's great. Breaking All Illusions is just... vague, uplifting imagery. Don't have many complaints, but don't have any gushing praise, either - although, "Searching out, reaching in, to arrive where I began" is eerily familiar. And I think we've collectively come to disregard Fatal Tragedy when discussing JM's lyrics, since they're perfectly fine, with some nice touches, but rather thankless and a little workmanlike.

He's a cool lyricist, but so are JP and JLB.

[BlobVanDam]

Does anyone else dislike Myung's lyrics? :/

I think they're basically pleasant, but not necessarily any better than any other band member's. If he contributed as much as John Petrucci, I reckon we'd be as split on them as we are on John Petrucci's. I don't dislike them, and I look forward to JM contributing simply for the fact that it's another voice and one we don't get to hear very often, but I also don't think they're the life-changing super-normous big deal a lot of people really do. Sometimes great, ToT's great. Breaking All Illusions is just... vague, uplifting imagery. Don't have many complaints, but don't have any gushing praise, either - although, "Searching out, reaching in, to arrive where I began" is eerily familiar. And I think we've collectively come to disregard Fatal Tragedy when discussing JM's lyrics, since they're perfectly fine, with some nice touches, but rather thankless and a little workmanlike.

He's a cool lyricist, but so are JP and JLB.

Exactly that, although I had no hope of expressing it so eloquently.

[obscure]

Seriously.

[wasteland]

Well, they are not great a priori, of course, everybody can have lyrical high and low moments, even though it's easier to have the former when you don't have to provide 5 to 7 sets for every release. It's much easier to come up with great words when you can choose a song you connect to in a particular way and let this resonance bear its fruits. This is probably why many fans enjoy JM's or JLB's lyrics more than those by the other band members.

As for myself, I happen to love every one of them, besides Fatal Tragedy. Hopefully I'll be able to quote this last sentence without any change when the new album is out. 

[mellotron_scratch]

Behind JLB, JM would be my favourite lyricist for DT. JP's lyrics have never really interested me, especially on post-Systematic Chaos albums.

I think that part of the reason why I don't really like his lyrics is because they are too literal (as someone said earlier). Sometimes they can be interesting, but too often I can't find any meaning behind the words. JM's lyrics are often vague and open to interpretation, which I like. JLB's lyrics, imo, have a good balance between being literal, symbolic and meaningful.

[Dellers]

Mixing is a lot more difficult than you might think. It could easily take a month or more to mix. There are complications too numerous to mention here, but one as an example.....

Then on top of that, the producer (JP) comes in and says he doesn't like something, now throw that mix out the window and start over.

Trust me, I know all about mixing since that's where my education went. Sometimes it's easy, sometimes it's rather hard. But, most engineers who have worked with this for several years use a maximum of one day per song with normal lengths. Two a day isn't uncommon either. I think two weeks are a fair guesstimate for how long this particular mix will take. That is if the editing is done of course, since especially editing vocals can take forever.

I hope JP doesn't do that. Given how none of their recent recordings have sounded any good when it comes to bottom I doubt his influence is any good in that regard. When numerous engineers fail to make a high quality bass audible and good sounding my guess is that the producer want it like that. If it happens again I'll start demanding stems for every record so that I can make things more balanced myself.

[The Stray Seed]

To me, JP's lyrical depth in Awake is totally unmatchable, I just can't figure out how he could end up writing those SC lyrics. I also love JM lyrics, and do think BAI is really good though it can't match songs like Lifting Shadows Off A Dream or Trial of Tears (absolute masterpieces to me).

I truly love the verses "wisdom revealed as I unlearn to learn", and the whole theme of the song is very interesting. BAI is something tied to the asian concept of spirituality, and I think this is the reason why many people just don't get it/like it. If you are familiar to asian philosophy (indian - chinese - japanese), you know why the theme of coming full circle is so important. This is the reason why, in karate, after the black belt you have the white belt again. After you have experienced it all, you must face a new beginning, and achieve new purity. To do this you must reach a state of enlightment, you must tear apart the veil of Maya and mentally break down all the mirrors of illusion. Then everything you know evolves into something different, as the many different aspects of reality (or techniques, speaking of martial arts) become one. It's about freeing your mind and achieving completeness.

I really like the fact that JM decided to write something that has to do with his origins and maybe with his own way of thinking and living. I think he told us something personal and intimate, and I feel like thanking him for this.

[Dream Team]

One thing I'm really hoping for on this new CD is unique song structures. I love ACOS, OAMOT, TKH, etc because they don't just follow the tired verse-chorus-verse-chorus-solos-chorus structure. Especially in ACOS and OAMOT, the solo/instrumental sections weave in and out very effectively. Actually songs like Metropolis don't have a repeated chorus at all, which is one of the things I love about it. Every section feels unique.

[dparrott]

Or just Rick Ruin it - turn everything up until everything is in the red and it'll sound great on ipods !

The thing is, stuff like Death Magnetic sounds bad even on an iPod with cheap earphones (the type of earphones is important because you can put lossless or even 256+ Kbps music on an iPod and use quality headphones and it'll sound pretty much as good as anything else to all but the most discerning of ears).

Which is what makes the loudness war even more confounding. I'm not sure of a single situation where that style of mixing is better than one without clipping. Maybe playing music out loud over cheap laptop speakers where volume matters, but still. That's one very specified scenario and it would be dumb to ruin the sound for every other scenario to slightly improve that one. Honestly, if I want the music louder, I'll turn the volume up. I don't understand why that's such a big deal. The only time I have ever turned the volume up to 50% when using headphones is when I'm in an area with a lot of ambient noise listening to music that has not been clipped. And if it's really a problem for you that the music is too quiet when you're playing it off cheap laptop speakers, there is an obvious and simple solution awaiting you at any electronics store.

Sorry for the rant, which was longer than even I expected, but the whole idea of compressing music just confounds me.

And here's what makes it worse: the band stands by it!  Lars says "it sounds fine in my car".  So despite how much the fans complain, nothing else matters?  ( ) If he played DM and say The Black Album side by side, he would hear the difference.  Then again, his ears are probably so shot, maybe not.

[TheGreatPretender]

One thing I'm really hoping for on this new CD is unique song structures. I love ACOS, OAMOT, TKH, etc because they don't just follow the tired verse-chorus-verse-chorus-solos-chorus structure. Especially in ACOS and OAMOT, the solo/instrumental sections weave in and out very effectively. Actually songs like Metropolis don't have a repeated chorus at all, which is one of the things I love about it. Every section feels unique.

Yeah, I was trying to think of it, and I actually can't think of a single song besides Metropolis, where not a single lyric is reprised in some way or another. That is what "Progressive" is all about to me.

[ibosmiley]

One thing I'm really hoping for on this new CD is unique song structures. I love ACOS, OAMOT, TKH, etc because they don't just follow the tired verse-chorus-verse-chorus-solos-chorus structure. Especially in ACOS and OAMOT, the solo/instrumental sections weave in and out very effectively. Actually songs like Metropolis don't have a repeated chorus at all, which is one of the things I love about it. Every section feels unique.

Yes, a few of these would be cool.  Granted, a couple verse-chorus standards for good measure would be good, but definitely some atypical lyrical structures would be a nice thing throughout the album.

[bosk1]

To me, JP's lyrical depth in Awake is totally unmatchable, I just can't figure out how he could end up writing those SC lyrics.

  Why?  If you liked his lyrics on Awake, what is it about his lyrics on SC that bother you?

BAI...

I truly love the verses "wisdom revealed as I unlearn to learn", and the whole theme of the song is very interesting. BAI is something tied to the asian concept of spirituality, and I think this is the reason why many people just don't get it/like it. If you are familiar to asian philosophy (indian - chinese - japanese), you know why the theme of coming full circle is so important. This is the reason why, in karate, after the black belt you have the white belt again. After you have experienced it all, you must face a new beginning, and achieve new purity. To do this you must reach a state of enlightment, you must tear apart the veil of Maya and mentally break down all the mirrors of illusion. Then everything you know evolves into something different, as the many different aspects of reality (or techniques, speaking of martial arts) become one. It's about freeing your mind and achieving completeness.

Since I think I was the one who first mentioned not liking those lyrics, I'll comment and explain why.  Obviously, I can't speak for others who may not like them for whatever reason (and I think people who dislike those lyrics seem to be a minority anyway), but as far as my own reasons:  I am fully aware of the eastern concepts of sprituality that you mention above.  And that is precisely why I don't like these lyrics.  There are some great lines here and there, and some great concepts.  But as a whole, lyrics on concepts of spirituality get a greater degree of scrutiny from me than lyrics on other concepts.  Lyrics that promote spiritual concepts that are contrary to God or, more applicable with this song, that substitute another spiritual concept for God, are not going to resonate with me and are going to be something that, generally speaking, I will not like very much.  That has a lot to do with my problems with the lyrics on that particular song.  Again, that's not to say that there aren't parts I enjoy, or that I don't enjoy other lyrics by JM.  I find that I generally like his lyrical contributions.  Just not on this BAI.

I don't want to go into greater detail than that because I do not want to derail this thread into a discussion of religious beliefs.  That should not be debated here and is a topic more suitable for the political and relious subforum.  If anyone wants to continue this discussion there, feel free to start a thread in that section.  Just wanted to provide a little clarification on my take on the lyrics.

[aprilethereal]

^^

I agree with your opinion

[eosforum]

To me, JP's lyrical depth in Awake is totally unmatchable, I just can't figure out how he could end up writing those SC lyrics.

  Why?  If you liked his lyrics on Awake, what is it about his lyrics on SC that bother you?

Seriously? I can't think of a single common element. There is no comparison there whatsoever. Cheesy, "spooky" stories on the one side and introspective stuff like Scarred and thoughtfully constructed snippets of mentally ill people's diaries like Voices on the other. Also the difference in quality is easily seen. It's like saying that Lines in the Sand's lyrics are of the same quality as of The Answer Lies Within.

[Mosh]

To me, JP's lyrical depth in Awake is totally unmatchable, I just can't figure out how he could end up writing those SC lyrics.

  Why?  If you liked his lyrics on Awake, what is it about his lyrics on SC that bother you?

Seriously? I can't think of a single common element. There is no comparison there whatsoever. Cheesy, "spooky" stories on the one side and introspective stuff like Scarred and thoughtfully constructed snippets of mentally ill people's diaries like Voices on the other. Also the difference in quality is easily seen. It's like saying that Lines in the Sand's lyrics are of the same quality as of The Answer Lies Within.

This. There is a definite difference between lyrics on SC and lyrics on Awake. One has introspective lyrics that describe personal struggles while the other has lyrics about vampires and scary monsters. Not to mention the writing style is much different; SC being less poetic.

[fadetoblackdude7]

JP always wrote the best lyrics, IMO. I can't explain what it is, but every time I read his lyrics, I get a sense of power and I always end up saying "that's fucking awesome" out loud. Example: ITPOE

Not that JLB and JM don't write great lyrics.

[bosk1]

Okay, well you are saying two different things:

1.  Narrative style vs. more abstract poetic style:  John has always seemed to employ these two different styles in his lyrics.  I would have to agree that SC is easily the one album where he employed the more literal narrative style of lyrics more exclusively than another other album.  I don't have a problem with that, but if someone's preference is the more abstract, poetic style, that's perfectly valid, and I get it.  But what I don't get about it is someone not realizing that JP has always had that more literal narrative style, even as far back as WDADU.  It's just that on SC, you are pretty much getting only that style.  (although ITPOE is a very interesting example of a song that, on one level, seems to be a strictly narrative story taken from a manga about demons and zombie armies, etc., but on a deeper level is actually about spiritual struggles in the more broad sense)
2.  "Quality":  I'm not even sure what you mean by this.  I'm not seeing any dropoff in quality over time, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

[KevShmev]

I see a drastic drop-off in quality in regards to JP's lyrics.  He still has had some good ones over the years, but he has had some stinkers as well.  Sometimes, it is hard to believe it is the same guy who wrote such lyrical gems as Voices, Scarred and Take Away My Pain.

[Dream Team]

JP also has the ability to be great even when he's being mostly literal. Case in point: Someone Like Him. Beautiful stuff. Part of it is probably JLB's excellent delivery and the nice melody underneath, but I love those lyrics. Other examples: Beneath the Surface, Bridges in the Sky

Whoops, ninja'd by Bosk.

[CodyWanKenobi]

To me, I'd say JLB has the most touching lyrics out of the DT guys (although, ADTOE had a few touching songs by JP - TITL, BTS, and then there was also TAMP)
But songs like Disappear, FFH, Vacant... not many of DT's lyrics match that beauty.  But I think JP writes the most interesting lyrics. I think it's really cool that he'll go and research the free masons, or the persian empire, just so he can write a song about them. He is definitely talented. Over all, I think JP and JLB are my favorite lyricists for DT. KevMo, MP, and JMX all tying for second. I would like to hear from JR though one of these days. I'm sure he has some wacky lyrics to share with us. Maybe a song about why we should buy his apps. hahaha.

[wasteland]

The boys, chilling in front of the mix console.

[?]

Rich looks tired, he must've been working really hard

[eosforum]

Well bosk1, when we talk about a difference in quality, what we mean abstractly is: compare lyrics of The Answer Lies Within, Forsaken, Wither, Bulid Me Up, Break Me Down and A Rite of Passage to Lines in the Sand, Voices, Surrounded, Misunderstood and Innocence Faded.

Having said that, I have to make clear that I love all DT songs and lyrics, but as much as I'm a fanboy I try to be objective as much as I can. I like everything they have released so far, but I cannot but recognize some variations in quality here and there on some levels (i.e. lyrics). It doesn't bug me, but it's there.

[?]

Well bosk1, when we talk about a difference in quality, what we mean abstractly is: compare lyrics of The Answer Lies Within, Forsaken, Wither, Bulid Me Up, Break Me Down and A Rite of Passage to Lines in the Sand, Voices, Surrounded, Misunderstood and Innocence Faded.

Surrounded was written by KevMo

[eosforum]

Yeah, sorry I was thinking of Under a Glass Moon... 

[fadetoblackdude7]

We should be getting the track listing for DT12 any day now....maybe tomorrow or Friday(?)

[bosk1]

Well bosk1, when we talk about a difference in quality, what we mean abstractly is: compare lyrics of The Answer Lies Within, Forsaken, Wither, Bulid Me Up, Break Me Down and A Rite of Passage to Lines in the Sand, Voices, Surrounded, Misunderstood and Innocence Faded.

I get it that you might prefer one set of songs over the other.  But I don't really see a difference in quality.  I just don't. 

[BlobVanDam]

We should be getting the track listing for DT12 any day now....maybe tomorrow or Friday(?)

I'd expect it once they're done mastering the album, so I'd be keeping an eye on their progress for mixing/mastering. I'd probably give it a couple of weeks yet.

[Jaffa]

I get it that you might prefer one set of songs over the other.  But I don't really see a difference in quality.  I just don't.

May I ask how you measure the quality of lyrics?  Just curious, here. 

[lonestar]

You can't, lyrics aren't a subjective thing. They hit each of us differently. What may seem like high school philosophy to one person may be just the words another needs to get through hard times.

[Perpetual Change]

Well bosk1, when we talk about a difference in quality, what we mean abstractly is: compare lyrics of The Answer Lies Within, Forsaken, Wither, Bulid Me Up, Break Me Down and A Rite of Passage to Lines in the Sand, Voices, Surrounded, Misunderstood and Innocence Faded.

I get it that you might prefer one set of songs over the other.  But I don't really see a difference in quality.  I just don't.

There's a huge difference in quality. For starters, one set of lyrics is brimming with allegory and unconventional metaphor, making them more lyrical. The later set are much more sparse on poetic device, which is why people who really like lyrics don't like em as much.

[eosforum]

Well what do you want me to say? I know it's not something you can measure and I know that tastes differ. It just feels to me like some lyrics were somewhat less thoughtfully crafted than others. Also less "truthfull". For instance, Wither and Misunderstood both describe an introspective, emotional state, that JP went through somepoint in time. But at least in this example I think objectivity can be invoked. I mean come on, I don't want to be politically correct about this, there is a difference in quality. In the end it's just my opinion, it's not like I am the lyrics police