Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[ToT-147]

Well, I'm going to back out. Your replies are becoming far too emotionally charged for what should be a very simple discussion. If you'd like to discuss calmly and civilly, cool. But I'm not an emotional debater, and I honestly do not have an emotional investment in any of this.

Don't know why my replies came across as being "emotionally charged"?.. I'm calmed, is just my way of writing.. But ok, you're free to do as you wish..

This is a controvesial thread after all, and I do get my opinion is being read as controversial... that's kind of the whole point..

If you are an artist and your artistic undertaking is proving difficult to the point at which you cannot perform at a reasonably high level, you need to do something else.

This isn't me saying James should quit singing. I hope he sings for as long as Mick Jagger sings, or whatever you call it when he opens his mouth and words come out in e semi-melodious manner. He should stop singing anything he cannot sing well, and by well I mean at a very highly proficient bar the band has set (rightly or wrongly) for themselves.

Says who?..


Who are you, or me, or anyone at all to establish a certain artist and, in this particular case, a singer (because he is those two things although you don't seem to be very convinced about it) must only be perfect at doing what he does, like singing in this case, or otherwise not doing it at all?..

Even more, when you know (because I think everyone knows this) that James is also loved and appreciated as he is for many of us (which includes the current members of the band!).. Again: I'm not saying he shouldn't be criticize like this (like you're doing, and like many others criticize him even worse) just because I like him... But for this very reason -the like or dislike of his performances are VERY subjective- you cannot say what he should do or what he must sing just because you don't like him (or don't like how he sings whatever sections you're referring to)..

[Cool Chris]

I was coming it at from the point that everyone who works a job should perform at a reasonable level. Maybe I should have omitted the "high" part. Fair enough. If you are flipping burgers for Derek while he composes his next (and by next I mean first) masterpiece, you should do a reasonable job at it, if you are expecting patrons to frequent your establishment. So part of it is just work ethic. I never said James should be perfect. No one is, in any industry. But if you aren't good at it, no matter how hard you try, maybe burger-flipping isn't your thing.

Yes, art is subjective, but it is not up to the viewer/listener/reader to determine the quality of the work/performance? They are the ones experiencing the art. I cannot say what an artist should do, or how he should do it. You are correct on that point. But I feel it reasonable to posit that one might not be performing their art well, just as Derek can complain his burger wasn't cooked well.

Not sure what I am arguing. i do not feel that strongly about this. I love James. I love his performances. I think he should re-work some of DT's early material for live shows, because the performances have the potential to fall below what I would consider a reasonable level.

[ToT-147]

I cannot say what an artist should do, or how he should do it. You are correct on that point. But I feel it reasonable to posit that one might not be performing their art well

Exactly.. This "position" is precisely the subjective part.. We, as an audiencie, can judge if something is bad or not for ourselves; yes, we can, and actually we do it almost all the time.. A very different thing is saying things like "he should stop singing anything he cannot sing well"..

He doesn't sing well for you?.. Ok, fair, that's up to you to decide.. But saying that because of that the guy has to do something about it, or that he is not an artist at all, feels very possesive and shamelessly unfair.. Then again, I'm not even talking about you particularly (you're saying you do mostly like his performances after all) but about the hatred we all know there is against him.. That's not fair.. And that's what I've been saying all along..

To put it more simple: you don't like an artist?, that's ok.. But he's still an artist, and no one else but him should decide whatever he wants to do with his life..



Having said that, we can fall even deeper into the discussion by realizing that what should be considered "art" it's largely subjective too ..

[CodyWanKenobi]

I'm not really sure what's controversial anymore as an opinion, but lets see if I can try. Sorry if I am repeating some, I haven't gone through the entire thread.

1. The greatest era of DT was from 99 - 07
2. This band is terrible at writing ballads - lyrically - (except wait for sleep), and for some reason likes to include way too many.
3. Kevin Moore was the only good lyricist in the band, everyone else has been mediocre with occasional moments of greatness.
4. Derek Sherinian and Mike Portnoy brought a lot of personality balance to the band. That "Rock and Roll swagger" infamously mentioned in the Sons of Apollo teasers. I may still think Derek is a douche, but he was right. Todays DT feels like a band of dorks.
5. I hate that DT became famous for their technicallity, seems like they have been shoehorned into a circus act as a result
6. The albums are too damn long. There are always sections of filler that should have been omitted. DT would be better served with 30 - 45 minute albums.
7. Petrucci and Portnoy were never good with production, and without Portnoy it has gotten worse.

With all that said, I'm still a huge DT fan and cannot wait for Distance Over Time

I hate everything about your opinion except the part about being a huge fan and being excited for D/T

[gzarruk]

I'm not really sure what's controversial anymore as an opinion, but lets see if I can try. Sorry if I am repeating some, I haven't gone through the entire thread.

1. The greatest era of DT was from 99 - 07
2. This band is terrible at writing ballads - lyrically - (except wait for sleep), and for some reason likes to include way too many.
3. Kevin Moore was the only good lyricist in the band, everyone else has been mediocre with occasional moments of greatness.
4. Derek Sherinian and Mike Portnoy brought a lot of personality balance to the band. That "Rock and Roll swagger" infamously mentioned in the Sons of Apollo teasers. I may still think Derek is a douche, but he was right. Todays DT feels like a band of dorks.
5. I hate that DT became famous for their technicallity, seems like they have been shoehorned into a circus act as a result
6. The albums are too damn long. There are always sections of filler that should have been omitted. DT would be better served with 30 - 45 minute albums.
7. Petrucci and Portnoy were never good with production, and without Portnoy it has gotten worse.

With all that said, I'm still a huge DT fan and cannot wait for Distance Over Time

I hate everything about your opinion except the part about being a huge fan and being excited for D/T

Nailed it

[Max Kuehnau]

I'm not really sure what's controversial anymore as an opinion, but lets see if I can try. Sorry if I am repeating some, I haven't gone through the entire thread.

1. The greatest era of DT was from 99 - 07
2. This band is terrible at writing ballads - lyrically - (except wait for sleep), and for some reason likes to include way too many.
3. Kevin Moore was the only good lyricist in the band, everyone else has been mediocre with occasional moments of greatness.
4. Derek Sherinian and Mike Portnoy brought a lot of personality balance to the band. That "Rock and Roll swagger" infamously mentioned in the Sons of Apollo teasers. I may still think Derek is a douche, but he was right. Todays DT feels like a band of dorks.
5. I hate that DT became famous for their technicallity, seems like they have been shoehorned into a circus act as a result
6. The albums are too damn long. There are always sections of filler that should have been omitted. DT would be better served with 30 - 45 minute albums.
7. Petrucci and Portnoy were never good with production, and without Portnoy it has gotten worse.

With all that said, I'm still a huge DT fan and cannot wait for Distance Over Time

I hate everything about your opinion except the part about being a huge fan and being excited for D/T

Nailed it

everyone's perception and opinion of what the "greatest" era of DT is is vastly different I would think (mine is 2011-present btw)

[ToT-147]

I'm not really sure what's controversial anymore as an opinion, but lets see if I can try. Sorry if I am repeating some, I haven't gone through the entire thread.

1. The greatest era of DT was from 99 - 07
2. This band is terrible at writing ballads - lyrically - (except wait for sleep), and for some reason likes to include way too many.
3. Kevin Moore was the only good lyricist in the band, everyone else has been mediocre with occasional moments of greatness.
4. Derek Sherinian and Mike Portnoy brought a lot of personality balance to the band. That "Rock and Roll swagger" infamously mentioned in the Sons of Apollo teasers. I may still think Derek is a douche, but he was right. Todays DT feels like a band of dorks.
5. I hate that DT became famous for their technicallity, seems like they have been shoehorned into a circus act as a result
6. The albums are too damn long. There are always sections of filler that should have been omitted. DT would be better served with 30 - 45 minute albums.
7. Petrucci and Portnoy were never good with production, and without Portnoy it has gotten worse.

With all that said, I'm still a huge DT fan and cannot wait for Distance Over Time

I hate everything about your opinion except the part about being a huge fan and being excited for D/T

Nailed it

everyone's perception and opinion of what the "greatest" era of DT is is vastly different I would think (mine is 2011-present btw)

Agreed.. And that's because there are dozens and dozens of combinations of "DT eras" in the first place...

[rumborak]

BTW, has anybody noticed how over the last few albums DT has made increasing use of this very specific type of cadence? It's a "classic" cadence, but I feel they never used to use it as much as they do now. In FITL an example is at 3:45, where the chords do a I/V -> V/V -> I/I transition. I don't know the exact chords in FITL, but in C major this transition would be C/G-> G/G -> C/C. They used that type of transition a LOT in TA also.

[rab7]

BTW, has anybody noticed how over the last few albums DT has made increasing use of this very specific type of cadence? It's a "classic" cadence, but I feel they never used to use it as much as they do now. In FITL an example is at 3:45, where the chords do a I/V -> V/V -> I/I transition. I don't know the exact chords in FITL, but in C major this transition would be C/G-> G/G -> C/C. They used that type of transition a LOT in TA also.

I don't know about that one, but I know TA had a ton of Plagal Cadence

[rumborak]

Had to look that one up (i.e. listen on Youtube) and yeah, that one very much too. I'm wondering whether this was an outcome of JR composing a lot of the tunes on the piano, where you would make those cadences a conscious decision (vs on the guitar where I feel it's not as theory-driven).

[nikatapi]

BTW, has anybody noticed how over the last few albums DT has made increasing use of this very specific type of cadence? It's a "classic" cadence, but I feel they never used to use it as much as they do now. In FITL an example is at 3:45, where the chords do a I/V -> V/V -> I/I transition. I don't know the exact chords in FITL, but in C major this transition would be C/G-> G/G -> C/C. They used that type of transition a LOT in TA also.

Definitely noticeable, especially on TA. Let's see if the pattern is obvious on the new album as well.

[Anxiety35]

Here's a controversial opinion I have.

I don't think we will get another stellar album release from DT. The 2 songs released for D/T don't do much for me. Nothing stands out and makes me go "wow!" like Awake, SFAM, I&W & ACOS did for me.

I absolutely hate having this opinion as DT is my favorite band.

[bosk1]

Well, after WDADU, we've had 12 in a row, so I don't see any reason to think this one will buck the pattern.

[Darkstarshades]

Whoah, so you have almost 20 years worth of disappointment 

[rumborak]

For real though, there are precious few artists who can produce albums deep into their career that can rival the albums that brought them to fame.

That said, it's interesting to look at RYM ratings of albums and identify the albums that "bucked the trend" and had a higher rating than the previous one. Those were IAW, SFAM and BCSL. The time gap between them was 7 years, 10 years, and so far 10 years again. I think there's a high chance D/T will buck the trend.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

Yeah, I think I've come to terms with the fact that we probably won't get another DT album on the level of 6DOIT or SFAM. But that doesn't mean none of their records going forward won't be worthwhile. Even if they out 30, I'll listen to em all. I've just learned to keep my expectations in check.

And besides, if I'm wrong, I'll be pleasantly surprised. 

[Anxiety35]

As a band, it's tough to do one record that's a masterpiece. Dream Theater have produced at least 4. I enjoy the other albums a lot, but I'm wondering & hoping if they have one more masterpiece in them. I'm not so sure they do.

Think about this. I started being a fan of DT when Awake was released (thanks to Headbangers Ball on MTV for crying out loud.) I was a senior in high school and 17 years old. Now I'm 41 years old. Much has changed in me over the last 24 years. Maybe it's not DT but maybe it's me?

I am looking forward to hearing the rest of the new record. I'm still a fan and will always be.

[KevShmev]

That said, it's interesting to look at RYM ratings of albums and identify the albums that "bucked the trend" and had a higher rating than the previous one. Those were IAW, SFAM and BCSL. The time gap between them was 7 years, 10 years, and so far 10 years again. I think there's a high chance D/T will buck the trend.

Because The Astonishing was so divisive and doesn't have a good overall score on most sites (seems like it one of the bottom 2 or 3 rated DT albums everywhere online where there are numerical ratings), that seems like a safe bet.

[BeatriceNB]

Probably some have (partially) been said before, but:

-I find WDADU to be a better album (lyrically and musically) than SFAM, which is in the bottom 4 fav. albums for me.

-I find SFAM incredibly overrated as a concept album ("best concept album ever" claims make no sense to me)

-I don't like the Metal albums (BC&SL, TOT and SC) as much as the other albums

-About BC&SL, TCOT is in my top 3 DT songs, specially the Happy Holidays version

-TA is my 3rd favourite album by DT, after Awake and I&W

-OK, this is the most heavily loaded one: I don't think that Mike Portnoy is a good drummer. He's influential, and I respect that, and he added cool things to the songs (and some really bad things), but, he tends to overplay everything, and add the same fills whenever there's a chance; that's cool the first three times, then it becomes tiresome. Some people like that, and fine, but I just... don't.

-Petrucci and Portnoy aren't good producers. Petrucci makes everything loud and muddy, and Portnoy made everything LOUD and dry.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

-I find SFAM incredibly overrated as a concept album ("best concept album ever" claims make no sense to me)

This is quite spicy indeed.

I can half agree with you on the stance of "SFAM is a great album, but not a great concept album". Not sure if you'd agree with that. Listening now. I do find that the story it tells is pretty bare thin and not so compelling, but the incredible songwriting all throughout the record is what keeps me coming back to it.

-Petrucci and Portnoy aren't good producers. Petrucci makes everything loud and muddy, and Portnoy made everything LOUD and dry.

I would agree with this, though I would take Portnoy's production with DT over Petrucci's any day.

[gzarruk]

-OK, this is the most heavily loaded one: I don't think that Mike Portnoy is a good drummer. He's influential, and I respect that, and he added cool things to the songs (and some really bad things), but, he tends to overplay everything, and add the same fills whenever there's a chance; that's cool the first three times, then it becomes tiresome. Some people like that, and fine, but I just... don't.

-Petrucci and Portnoy aren't good producers. Petrucci makes everything loud and muddy, and Portnoy made everything LOUD and dry.

I agree with the first one. I wouldn't go as far as saying he isn't a good drummer, but he's definitely waaaaaay overrated, repetitive and not interesting as a drummer anymore. His drumming in the early DT years, however, was highly important and influential to the whole prog metal genere. Nowadays, though, and for the last decade at least, he just overplays, plays the same fills on every song/album he does and for whatever reason thinks that more splash cymbals = better drumming.

About the production, let's keep in mind that we're comparing Petrucci producing alone vs MP and JP producing. We should hear an album only produced by MP to see the real contrast.

[DP_Gumby]

I enjoy FII, WDADU, SC and BC&SL just as much as I&W, SFAM, Awake or any of the other albums they've released.

[DoctorAction]

Petrucci and Portnoy aren't good producers.

I think that's pretty universally accepted rather than controversial. DOT is sounding better thus far tho. Fingers crossed.

[Darkstarshades]

I think it depends on your definition of masterpiece (edit: and tastes, of course) really, because for me TA is clearly a masterpiece, DT's most ambitious record easily and up there with SFAM.

Sure, people might not like it and that's fine, but saying stuff like it's a lazy effort or something like that is just so mindblowingly retarded it's literally discrediting a clear effort that just happened to be not everyone's cup of tea.

[jakepriest]

but saying stuff like it's a lazy effort or something like that is just so mindblowingly retarded it's literally discrediting a clear effort that just happened to be not everyone's cup of tea.

You say that as if you have never read any comments under DT youtube videos and noticed that DT fans have some of the most "constructive" criticisms in the metal music industry.

[cramx3]

but saying stuff like it's a lazy effort or something like that is just so mindblowingly retarded it's literally discrediting a clear effort that just happened to be not everyone's cup of tea.

You say that as if you have never read any comments under DT youtube videos and noticed that DT fans have some of the most "constructive" criticisms in the metal music industry.

What?  You mean I should take blabbermouth article comments seriously too?! 

[Darkstarshades]

but saying stuff like it's a lazy effort or something like that is just so mindblowingly retarded it's literally discrediting a clear effort that just happened to be not everyone's cup of tea.

You say that as if you have never read any comments under DT youtube videos and noticed that DT fans have some of the most "constructive" criticisms in the metal music industry.

I hope this is sarcasm

[jakepriest]

but saying stuff like it's a lazy effort or something like that is just so mindblowingly retarded it's literally discrediting a clear effort that just happened to be not everyone's cup of tea.

You say that as if you have never read any comments under DT youtube videos and noticed that DT fans have some of the most "constructive" criticisms in the metal music industry.

I hope this is sarcasm

No I'm definitely 100% serious. 
Also Mangini is a robot and sucks and Portnoy is the soul and heart of DT!

[robbob]

Not sure how controversial this is but i'm getting a little tired of the Metal side of DT. JP is awesome but some of the metal riffing is getting a little stale. And I love me some good metal, Systematic Chaos is one my favorite albums to listen to.

Hadn't listened to much older DT in a while, but recently pulled out Scarred, Hells Kitchen/Lines in The Sand, Trail of Tears. Damn I love that stuff, wish they would incorporate more of that Prog Rock style back into their music and a little less Metal.

UPDATE - Trial of Tears (not Trail, lol)
And, some may say TA was definitely more rock than Metal. But, that album does not do a whole lot for me, only a few tracks.

[bosk1]

Um...there's been PLENTY of metal in every single album they have released.

[Darkstarshades]

It would be a good idea to sum all the time TA has of "metal" and see how many of their previous records it exceeds 

[pg1067]

Not sure how controversial this is but i'm getting a little tired of the Metal side of DT. JP is awesome but some of the metal riffing is getting a little stale. And I love me some good metal, Systematic Chaos is one my favorite albums to listen to.

To say that you're getting tired of something isn't controversial, but it's awfully inconsistent to say that you don't like DT's metal side and say that SC (an album whose most prominent song is "The Dark Eternal Night") is one of your favorite albums.

Hadn't listened to much older DT in a while, but recently pulled out Scarred, Hells Kitchen/Lines in The Sand, Trail of Tears. Damn I love that stuff, wish they would incorporate more of that Prog Rock style back into their music and a little less Metal.

So...stuff like "Breaking All Illusions," "The Looking Glass" and "Illumination Theory"?

[bosk1]

I'm hard pressed to come up with more than a couple or three songs per album that are not metal (excluding The Astonishing, which is harder to classify). 

[pg1067]

I'm hard pressed to come up with more than a couple or three songs per album that are not metal (excluding The Astonishing, which is harder to classify).

Yup.  "Scarred," "Lines in the Sand," "Hells Kitchen" and "Trial of Tears" are all "metal" songs.  "Scarred" even had a heavy riffing segment

[Adami]

Off the top of my head, I'd say SFAM has a few songs that aren't metal.

Regression, Through my words, Through her eyes, One Last Time, Spirit Carries on.